Rabo/Blanco cast doubts about current peleton.

[theyoungest]

So Kruiswijk was in better form at Switserland than in the Giro? Strangely I think that is bizar. That would be bad peaking don't you think so?

Usually the guys coming from the Giro have a bonus in form in Dauphiné and Suisse, versus the guys who have just returned from training camps. BTW where do you read that he was better in Suisse than in the Giro?

On Kruiswijks power numbers, it might also come in handy if he took a look who was racing in Tirreno in comparison to Switserland. Yes, there are some 'surprises' but the field was somewhat stronger we might say.

Does that explain the difference between 3d and 21st? Maybe the field was a little stronger, but actually... not much.

It is for Rabo, Australia is a big market for them.

Yeah, but the team isn't Rabobank anymore... they need to do well in races that make it to Dutch tv. And for Rabobank it was only important because it's big in Australia, where the bank also operates.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Usually the guys coming from the Giro have a bonus in form in Dauphiné and Suisse, versus the guys who have just returned from training camps. BTW where do you read that he was better in Suisse than in the Giro?

Guess coming in 8th in the Giro, riding alongside Contador in the high mountains is less than becoming third in Switserland behind no one less then Levi? I would prown with that form, maybe that is just my interpretation.

Does that explain the difference between 3d and 21st? Maybe the field was a little stronger, but actually... not much.

We might not agree on this point.

Nibali in full training [peaked too early/long]
Rodriguez almost the same
And do not forget Horner

Etc etc, Tirreno is not a shytti race, it is 95% max form for la Primavera. And yes, there were some strange names in front of Kruiswijk but let's not act like Steven is the second coming. Anyways, in shorter stage races you'll see often names that are surprising.

 

[coinneach]

Is there not another possible explanation (which has been posted before, so I take no credit for its originality)

That is that teams that used to rely on dope have kinda lost the other things that used to make them good....because all they thought they had to do in the past was to get their doping right (and they were probably correct!)

Take time trialling ok, I know dope can help a massive amount her, but if you discount dope, position, practice, style, aerodynamics all play a big part.

There's a lot of good french cyclists coming though who haven't learned to TT properly.

I think this theory is worth considering, and teams who are complaining about being behind the pace might just have been too dependent on dope in the past.

 

[gillan1969]

Right, that's why they are heading for China. And you can argue like this for the USA as well.

What is your companies' strategy if the main market is declining?

sponsor someone who the local population have an affinity with...i can't imagine the Chinese knowing much about classicomano luigi

mainly the sponsors are euro for the euro market...

the 'monuments' cannot be replicated in China or Australia

they may become monuments to my great grandchildren, but they are, at the moment, only an aside

 

[theyoungest]

Is there not another possible explanation (which has been posted before, so I take no credit for its originality)

That is that teams that used to rely on dope have kinda lost the other things that used to make them good....because all they thought they had to do in the past was to get their doping right (and they were probably correct!)

Take time trialling ok, I know dope can help a massive amount her, but if you discount dope, position, practice, style, aerodynamics all play a big part.

There's a lot of good french cyclists coming though who haven't learned to TT properly.

I think this theory is worth considering, and teams who are complaining about being behind the pace might just have been too dependent on dope in the past.

That may be possible, but Verhoeven and Kruijswijk are hardly the guys whom this theory would apply to. Verhoeven was a DS for the development team during the EPO days, and Kruijswijk was a teenager.

It's easy to regard teams as fixed entities, but don't hold it against these guys that the moniker 'Rabobank' has been around for so long. To link Kruijswijk to the old Rabobank makes as much sense as linking Taylor Phinney to Phonak.

 

[El Pistolero]

So how do they explain Boom being sick and crap in the Ronde and being one of the best in Roubaix a week later? They try to make it sound like they were crap in the classics, but who do they think they are fooling? Boom was second or third best in Roubaix last year.

What are they expecting from the classics? Big wins? With riders like Boom and Mollema? Don't make me laugh.

 

[theyoungest]

So how do they explain Boom being sick and crap in the Ronde and being one of the best in Roubaix a week later? They try to make it sound like they were crap in the classics, but who do they think they are fooling? Boom was second or third best in Roubaix last year.

What are they expecting from the classics? Big wins? With riders like Boom and Mollema? Don't make me laugh.

Did you actually read the article? Probably not, that remains a problem for you.

He's talking about Paris-Nice and Tirreno...

 

[El Pistolero]

Did you actually read the article? Probably not, that remains a problem for you.

He's talking about Paris-Nice and Tirreno...

Our team had a pretty high level, but we just couldnt compete. Later I saw something notable: Our best races were just after the big events. After the classics we won in Turkey and Romandie. En also after the Tour, in the Eneco Tour. So then all of a sudden we were really good. And I bet now your'e gonna ask, whats the cause of that?

Bunch of calimero's. That remains the problem of most Dutch teams.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... With riders like Boom...

Hmm. Yeah, former CX world champions don't know a thing about peaking/winning or bike handling, the other thing that is helpful in the Northern Spring Classics.

The opinion has some validity. It won't be the first time athletes have good numbers in training, beating some, the getting destroyed by dopers within the month.

On top of that, we know the UCI, at best, has limited anti-doping resources. But it is more likely there is much more going on about Hein/Pat managing positives. It was tried with Contador, it was accomplished several times with Wonderboy.

As a general comment, shouting down the viewpoint there might still be doping issues is dangerous since we have so little anti-doping information to work with anyway.

 

[El Pistolero]

Hmm. Yeah, former CX world champions don't know a thing about peaking/winning or bike handling, the other thing that is helpful in the Northern Spring Classics.

The opinion has some validity. It won't be the first time athletes have good numbers in training, beating some, the getting destroyed by dopers within the month.

On top of that, we know the UCI, at best, has limited anti-doping resources. But it is more likely there is much more going on about Hein/Pat managing positives. It was tried with Contador, it was accomplished several times with Wonderboy.

As a general comment, shouting down the viewpoint there might still be doping issues is dangerous since we have so little anti-doping information to work with anyway.

When has a CX rider ever done well in the northern classics? Even Nys couldn't do much in Roubaix and he's BFF with Leinders.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Bunch of calimero's. That remains the problem of most Dutch teams.

I like this one I must say. Good points Pistolero.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

As a general comment, shouting down the viewpoint there might still be doping issues is dangerous since we have so little anti-doping information to work with anyway.

Indeed, this is a healthy development. Riders needs to be able to speak freely about other performances.

 

[DirtyWorks]

When has a CX rider ever done well in the northern classics? Even Nys couldn't do much in Roubaix and he's BFF with Leinders.

Well, there's Roger De Vlaeminck, Lars Boom's top-10 in 2012, Marc Madiot, Bernard Hinault, Johan Museeuw, Steve Chainel does well.

You have a point, but only a tiny one.

I think part of the reason you don't clearly see 'cross riders podium the spring classics in the last decade is the 'cross schedule has gotten a bit longer and racing in general has become more specialized than ever such that an elite 'crosser's goals don't align well with the Spring Classics.

 

[bpickford]

Indeed, this is a healthy development. Riders needs to be able to speak freely about other performances.

Because this team has been so honest about its practices in the past, we should all believe them now?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Because this team has been so honest about its practices in the past, we should all believe them now?

No, but riders need to ask the questions. Others may question Blanco's performances. I would welcome it. I think its a healthy process in this transition period (hopefully).

 

[hrotha]

Because this team has been so honest about its practices in the past, we should all believe them now?

You don't just believe anybody in this sport. You hear what they say and you see if it fits with what we think we know.

When was the last time we got this kind of talk? Early to mid 00s, French teams talking about cyclisme a deux vitesses. They were right. And before that? Early to mid 90s, riders casting doubts on the performance of Italians in the classics. They were right.

So, stay alert, and see if this piece of the puzzle fits in.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You don't just believe anybody in this sport. You hear what they say and you see if it fits with what we think we know.

When was the last time we got this kind of talk? Early to mid 00s, French teams talking about cyclisme a deux vitesses. They were right. And before that? Early to mid 90s, riders casting doubts on the performance of Italians in the classics. They were right.

So, stay alert, and see if this piece of the puzzle fits in.

Good point hrotha. But, how about la Vuelta with Gesink and the hippie Laurens? For example. Were Rabo riders numbers then okay?

 

[roundabout]

I have certain doubts about the level of T-A 2012 being that much different than TdS 2011. Let's see what the power data estimates thread says.

 

[Pentacycle]

They could've done this in 2010 too. Remember when Gesink destroyed the TdS field completely? Three weeks later Dauphine 'disappointments' Menchov(seeing him as a Rabo 'outsider') and Sanchez were riding away from him. Schleck was suddenly a level above him, after riding a dishcloth in Switzerland. Contador's improvement from the Dauphine was actually the least suspicious from all the contenders, somewhat similar to Gesink. Or is it just the Dutch rider who we shouldn't trust, or was he (obviously) peaking too early? After all, his best climbing performances took place before the 2010 TdF, and he can't climb that well any more now.

It's all gut feeling... Who can you trust, or who do you want to trust?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

They could've done this in 2010 too. Remember when Gesink destroyed the TdS field completely? Three weeks later Dauphine 'disappointments' Menchov(seeing him as a Rabo 'outsider') and Sanchez were riding away from him. Schleck was suddenly a level above him, after riding a dishcloth in Switzerland. Contador's improvement from the Dauphine was actually the least suspicious from all the contenders, somewhat similar to Gesink. Or is it just the Dutch rider who we shouldn't trust, or was he (obviously) peaking too early? After all, his best climbing performances took place before the 2010 TdF, and he can't climb that well any more now.

It's all gut feeling... Who can you trust, or who do you want to trust?

2 cents.

at this stage its not so much about who you can trust, but rather about getting the riders to question the situation/performances in general. Its a painful process, but I believe it can help the overall situation in the end.

 

[roundabout]

Contador climbed as well as Brajkovic and barely better than Coppel in the Dauphine.

 

[Pentacycle]

Contador climbed as well as Brajkovic and barely better than Coppel in the Dauphine.

Both were peaking for that race, and he still finished 40 seconds clear of Vandenbroeck on l'Alpe. Sanchez however made an insane recovery from losing 1'18'' there, almost being on par with Schleck and Contador in some mountain stages.

Preparation races are not to be taken totally serious ofc., but still it's a strange difference in less than a month's time. Nibali last year sucked most of the time in the Dauphine. He managed to podium, while other contenders who were clearly better there were nowhere in the Tour.

 

[laziali]

I know it's a bit off topic, but listing TV stations says very little about how many potential viewers and actual viewers a race has. Remember there are channels that are free and channels that cost money to have access to.

In my case the relevant channel is TV2 sport, I don't subscribe to that channel. I don't know how many do subscribe to the channel, but it it's not many. A total wild guess would put it in about 200 000 possible viewers. While big races like PR and TDF etc are sent on TV2 which is an open channel that can reach the entire population of 5 million.

Hence channel does not equal viewership.

No ToreBear, that's why you have to read carefully. What Hitch said: "which the home countries of most sponsors don't even show"

That was utterly false, as demonstrated by the list of channels showing. Hitch didn't say "which are not viewed by many in home countries" (no doubt, he rather wishes he did at this point). He wrongly asserted that home countries did not show at all. I was able to correct his falsehood with under 30 seconds on Google. Sloppy research and false statements need to be called out.

 

[argyllflyer]

I know it's a bit off topic, but listing TV stations says very little about how many potential viewers and actual viewers a race has. Remember there are channels that are free and channels that cost money to have access to.

In my case the relevant channel is TV2 sport, I don't subscribe to that channel. I don't know how many do subscribe to the channel, but it it's not many. A total wild guess would put it in about 200 000 possible viewers. While big races like PR and TDF etc are sent on TV2 which is an open channel that can reach the entire population of 5 million.

Hence channel does not equal viewership.

In the UK, very few races are shown free unfortunately. Only few of the Grand Tours and the Tour of Britain are on live for free. However, the pay platforms carry Eurosport without additional cost, and Sky have over 10 million subscribers. Virgin have 4 million cable TV subscribers. The majority of people, on those numbers, must have access to the pay platforms.

Sky costs roughly £250 per year (or £370 for HD). However for the Tour Down Under it was on Sky Sports, and that costs a further £250 a year. So really to echo the above, TDU was much harder to watch than any other WT event (bar Gent-Wevelgem which is not shown at all here).

 

[del1962]

In the UK, very few races are shown free unfortunately. Only few of the Grand Tours and the Tour of Britain are on live for free. However, the pay platforms carry Eurosport without additional cost, and Sky have over 10 million subscribers. Virgin have 4 million cable TV subscribers. The majority of people, on those numbers, must have access to the pay platforms.

Sky costs roughly £250 per year (or £370 for HD). However for the Tour Down Under it was on Sky Sports, and that costs a further £250 a year. So really to echo the above, TDU was much harder to watch than any other WT event (bar Gent-Wevelgem which is not shown at all here).

The TDU coverage though showed a lot of the stages.