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Race Design Thread

Page 175 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jul 26, 2015
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Thanks for the comments, always appreciated.

About the UCI rules, there are official limits, sure, but you can ask for derogations.

-3549km is much shorter than 3660km, which was the length of the 2014 Tour de France.
-3 stages over 240km was done in the 09'Giro, with two of those back-to-back and non-flat.
-Until 1998 we often had ITT over 60+ km in both Giro and the Tour. In 2009, the Giro had a 61km ITT.

So, except for that Granon stage, although it doesnt perfectly respect the rules, i think its absolutely doable and within the limits of whats acceptable.

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@Tonton :

Which Jura stage was not for your taste ?

For a Tour going eastwards to Alsace, you dont have that many options unfortunately.
Its seriously difficult to try to find an alternative plan in the vicinity.
 
Aug 21, 2015
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Yeah the Tour goes over 3500km often enough even today, 2014 did(3663.5), 2010 did(3642), 2008(3559), 2007(3569.9), it isn't all that rare to see. Should also point out that most of the Giros in the Race Design Challenge went over 3500km. I mean you should avoid going over if you can but I wouldn't worry about it too much unless it is much higher. My tour is going to be around the 3650 km range(don't have the exact distance on me right now as I haven't added all that stuff up yet).
 
Oct 4, 2015
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fauniera said:
There were quite a few time trials of over 70 km in the Tour in the 1980s, and of course the 87 km one to Futuroscope. To set a limit at 60 km is typical UCI nonsense.

Edit: The limit seems to be 80 km?
Huh? I guess I was wrong about that then (I thought they had to ask for a special authorization when they did that 60+km time trial at the Giro 2009...)
I know stages can be done above 240km, and full race lengths can go above 3500km, as long as they ask for permission too. Didn't know they had already done three such stages in the 2009 Giro.
So I was wrong then. It could be done, in theory. (of course there's no way that ASO does something like that in the near future but that's another story).
 
Stage 14: Villingen-Schwenningen - Stuttgart, 217km

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GPM:
Feckenhausen (cat.3) 3,4km @ 4,2%
Dettenhausener Berg (cat.4) 1,9km @ 4,6%
Birkenkopf (Stadt)(cat.4) 3,3km @ 4,9%
5x Herdweg (cat.4) 0,7km @ 7,9% (max 13%)
5x Birkenkopf (WM-Strecke)(cat.4) 1,1km @ 6,0% (max 8%)

After the brutal seven-climb odyssey of yesterday, it's another long day in the saddle as we head into the race's final weekend. And while the big mountains and the chrono kilometres may be over, there's still plenty of opportunity to win and lose time. This is not an easy day in the saddle and will favour those whose teams are not depleted, will favour those who are pretty all-round (remember, this race has given ample time for the rouleur to gain time as well, with a decent length early TT with cobbled climbing in it, two flat cobbled stages and a couple of rouleur type stages as well as the 50km ITT a couple of days ago) and have good punch. It will really give opportunities to play things tactically if the GC still has some wiggle room to be settled.

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The stage begins in the municipality of Villingen-Schwenningen, another of those German cities formed from the combining of two neighbouring towns, much as Clausthal-Zellerfeld and Garmisch-Partenkirchen that we visited earlier in the race. The first half of the stage, which runs parallel to the hills of the Schwarzwald, is mostly rolling, with a couple of ramps which are tough enough to categorise. For the most part though, it functions simply not to be flat and ensure that legs have some spring in them when we get to the important part of the route, which is that once the riders arrive in the city of Stuttgart, the intention is that the race should be made very difficult to control.

That is because we are undertaking five laps of the 2007 World Championships circuit, which included three climbs; I have elected, as the more gradual (averaging a little below 4% for 2,8km) drag up to the finishing line isn't particularly steep and also offers intermediate sprint points (and bonus seconds, as an added incentive to make moves) on two passes, not to categorize this, instead only the first two climbs of the circuit, Herdweg and Birkenkopf, the latter a partly artificial hill built over rubble from WWII, are categorized - however with so many ascents I have elected to switch to vertical labelling for this stage!

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The tricky, bumpy circuit is just over 19km long, and so the five loops last 95km, which brings the stage length up to a not inconsiderable 217km - which on the final weekend of a two week race which has included some bone-jarring cobbles and some brutally steep climbing in the Berchtesgadener Land should be plenty to ensure tired legs and therefore high attrition and difficult racing here.

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The road race back in 2007 was an interesting, punchy affair which you can relive the closing stages of here - the Italians played things carefully with Rebellin attacking on the penultimate lap with Kolobnev, which later set up the decisive move with Bettini, Fränk Schleck and Schumacher - with the Duracell-like Kolobnev and Evans riding across to the trio. Behind the quintet, a group of seven came home including Samu, Gilbert, Boogerd and Wegmann, with a bunch of around 40 a minute back. The women's race had a similar format, though the victor was solo, having done the final lap on her own and just holding on was then-20yo Marta Bastianelli, who could barely believe what she'd just done.

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These are sad times; I had had such high hopes for Marta, who now acknowledges that winning the rainbow jersey so young more or less ruined her career; it was "too heavy for her", the weight of expectation, the pressure to convert herself into more of an all-rounder, which eventually led to eating disorders, a positive for a weight loss supplement and a protracted battle over her ban; since returning she's never been the same rider, although she's shown strong performances in attritional sprint stages as she's got older. Behind her was a group of 15; another such group was at a little over a minute, and the rest were several down. The U23s had a bit of a sprint from a reduced bunch (around 50 on the same time as Velits), so gaps aren't a guarantee, but given the race to date and with bonus seconds available at the line AND at both 1- and 2-laps to go, just one stage remaining after this, this could get interesting.

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Nice rolling stage LS, and it finishers in my favourite city of Stuttgart!

Funnily enough I never even knew that they hosted the World Championships! Back then I was still just a TDF watcher. Well I did take a great interest in La Vuelta the previous season, but for that there is only one word: VINO :)

Not so funny is your story about Marta. Heart wrenching tale :(

But thanks as always for your detailed and descriptive posts.
 
Stage 15: Heilbronn - Heidelberg, 152km

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GPM:
3x Königstuhl (cat.2) 4,9km @ 9,1%

And so we reach this, the final stage of the Deutschlandtour. The riders have thus far fought over two weeks of tough racing on all terrains, from flat to some of the meanest mountains Europe has to offer and from pristine tarmac to cobbled monstrosities, and over every landscape Germany has for us, from barren kolkhoz land in Sachsen-Anhalt, scenic heath in the north, attractive wooded valleys and hills in the Schwarzwald, the Thüringer Wald and the Sauerland, from the meadows of northern Bavaria to the mythical, mighty peaks of the German Alps, and through cities ranging from the industrial DDR-throwback of Chemnitz to the beautiful medieval heart of Regensburg, from mighty cities like Stuttgart and Magdeburg to mountainous resort towns like Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Winterberg.

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And it comes down to this, a short lead-in to a circuit finish in the beautiful and historic city of Heidelberg. Before that, however, we leave from the city of Heilbronn, an important economic centre on the Neckar river in northern Baden-Württemberg. I know the city best for being one of the main centres of Ashkenaz I, from the era of Jewish geography when the Ashkenazim were mainly settled in west-central Europe - along with cities like Speyer, Mainz, Frankfurt and Worms (reflections of some of these can be found in common Ashkenazi surnames, Heilbronn is reflected mainly as Halpern or Heilprin), prior to the era of the Pale of Settlement, when much of east-central Europe became the basis for Ashkenaz II. We head from here northwest, with the main site of interest on the way to Heidelberg being the Hockenheimring, the legendary motor racing circuit which alternates hosting the Formula One World Championship with the Nürburgring - like the Green Hell, it was a long and dangerous blast through the forest (its most well-known victim being the legendary Jim Clark) which has been turned into a much shorter course, which has massively aided safety but also unlike some reprofilings such as Silverstone or Spa-Francorchamps, has robbed the course of much of its charm. Unlike the Nürburgring, however, the old tarmac has not survived; the forest is in the process of reclaiming the land taken from it, which is the part of the course we ride past. Also unlike the Nürburgring, it is pan flat, and has no cycling heritage, so need not detain us further.

After this we are close to the Rhine, but rather than cross the mighty river we turn back east into Heidelberg. This historic city will serve as the perfect base for us to finish the race in, owing to its scenic nature, and that it has both a great cultural history and the opportunity for a testing final stage. Seat of the oldest extant university in Germany (in fact a popular story is that a secret agreement was made between the RAF and the Luftwaffe that Heidelberg would not be targeted in order to preserve it, on the understanding that Cambridge and Oxford were similarly spared) and site of some of the most famous castle ruins in Europe, the riders will cross the finishing line in the Old Town before the closing coup de gras...

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Once the riders arrive in Heidelberg they undertake 3 laps of a 27km circuit which includes what Quäl dich! describes as the most photographed mountain by tourists in Germany, the legendary Königstuhl.

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The climb passes the historic castle you can see above, but the main thing about the climb is its steepness. The profile shows that it's mostly unrelenting, but with two steeper ramps to a maximum of 19%, one lower down the slopes and one further up. This is the only real obstacle of the circuit, however, so if a rider thinks they can make a difference here they're going to need to gamble and hope they can take it home - they will be climbing this three times, but the final summit is still 19km from the line. The descent is more gradual and only has a couple of testing corners, and so it's not especially technical, riders will need to work hard both on the way into the town of Neckargemünd and then afterwards on the 12km of flat before the finish line - the stage is a final GC roll of the dice, I guess, similar to the Bilbao stage of the 2011 Vuelta. The riders cross the Neckar in Neckargemünd, the main purpose of which is simply so that they can re-enter Heidelberg via Theodor-Heuss-Brücke and finish in the old town, on the pedestrianized Hauptstraße.

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And thus we have it - a two week Deutschlandtour with something for everybody. A chrono for the purist, a short-mid chrono for the classics man, two flat cobbled stages, some hilly rouleur stages, two circuits, one hilly and one intermediate, to finish, two stages with brutal high mountain slopes plus a third relentless mountain stage; some unpredictable mid-mountain stages, a couple of stages that favour the breakaway especially in a long stage race and a couple of pure sprints. It's hard to come up with a type of rider who wouldn't have a chance to win a stage here and I think I've done a decent job of showcasing some of the terrain of Germany while staying true to what the Deutschlandtour wanted to be about (including the Tour-aping foreign MTFs and the lengthy TT) and the history and culture of both cycling (Magdeburg, Steiler Wand, Stuttgart) and the wider nation (Bayreuth, Regensburg, Heidelberg).
 
Nice Race LS.
Is one Deutschland Tour too much? I've got to the half way stage of one that I'm creating. I put a holt on it when Libertine started posting that one, as I've been planning a Two week one, since finishing my three week one. The only problem was, I couldnt think of a start location.
 
After a long absence of posting a race here (anywhere on this forum actually :p !), I am back and shall post another Deutschland Tour straight off the back of Libertine's. Just a note, but the three letters not in bold on the title line, denote the day the stage takes place on.

Deutschland Tour Prologue: Berlin - Berlin (7.1km) (Fri)

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Climbs:
None

Sprints:
None (TT)

Time Split:
Brandenburger Tor @3.7km

We start the first stage of the third edition of the two week stage race (Gigs = edition 1, Libertine = edition 2) in the capital of the country, Berlin. Whereas most stage races longer than a week start on a saturday, to fit the amount of stages in, we start on the friday, with the team presentations and a crit up and down the Straße des 17 Juni in the Thursday evening.

With the german government allowing people to work up until 12:00 in and around Berlin and Potsdam, the evening prologue shouldn't effect rush hour traffic in the city. The riders start at the Platz der Republik opposite the Reichstag. We will then head onto the Straße des 17 Juni and then up to and round the Siegessäule before heading down and through the Brandenburg Gate. Onto the Unter den Linden before crossing the river and turning back infront of the Lust Garten. They will head back down the Unter den Linden, under the Brandenburg gate and enter the Straße des 17 Juni for a second time. Just after the gate, the first stage that counts will be finished by each and every rider in this 2.HC level race.

Berlin:
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Here's a slightly out-of-left-field race to break up the string of German routes then :p

It may not have escaped your attention, but I quite like Argentina and have done a few route designs there - a Vuelta a Argentina which was an attempt at a New World stage race, which proved rather difficult for reasons similar to those doing GT-length races in Australia as well - MTFs aren't hard to find, but connecting passes are, so producing a balanced route and not going Unipublic on it can be difficult; also in Argentina a large part of the most densely populated areas of the country are in the Pampas, and therefore we would be reliant on crosswinds and attrition to break things up. My other routes in the country have focused on the Argentine Lake District, a stunningly beautiful part of the Patagonian Andes located around San Carlos de Bariloche.

In the alternate reality in which my races exist, the Vuelta a Bariloche is appended to the Tour de San Luís and maybe another South American race or two to provide a competing mini-season like the desert races, where Qatar and Oman have totally different characteristics. Therefore, while San Luís and Bariloche are more climby, I now add another short stage race to the calendar, which would probably need to be an early January race. Therefore, I present to you a three day race (with the first day being potentially optional, giving us a Critérium International style race) which would be able to market itself as the southernmost race in the world, the Vuelta al Fin del Mundo, a short stage race in Argentine Tierra del Fuego, based mainly around Ushuaia, which markets itself as the southernmost city in the world (with the competing claim of Puerto Williams, the Chilean settlement to the south of the Beagle strait, being waved away by the Argentines as the settlement being too small to be called a city).

Stage 1: Circuito Atlántico (Rio Grande - Rio Grande), 128km

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The first stage is 10 laps of a 12,8km circuit in the biggest settlement on Tierra del Fuego, the pan-flat city of Rio Grande. There's nary a hill of any description to find here, as you can see from this aerial photo. I could have gone with 12 laps for a 154km stage, however given that it's going to be January, it should be short and easy really, and besides, there will be no real difference in the results; a bit of wind could feasibly affect things, but this should be an easy sprint, in which case it's only fair and right to make the stage short. Bonuses are as you expect - 10-6-4 for the stage winner, and 3-2-1 for the winners at the intermediate sprints at the end of laps 6 and 8.

Stage 2a: Tolhuin - Cumbres del Martial

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The second day is a split stage, which begins with a drive down the final tail end of Ruta 3, the southernmost highway in the world and - depending on interpretation because of the interruption of the Magellan Strait - the longest road in the country, from Rio Grande to the small town of Tolhuin. With only around 1500 inhabitants this is a pretty small stage town, however it is well known to travellers in this part of the world as it is a regular coach stop and replenishment station, with a particularly famous bakery (you can see it in the background above) at which long-distance coach travellers traditionally fuel up for the last leg of the journey. It was also the roadblock town in the controversial international incident sparked by the crew of British TV programme Top Gear as well.

The stage sees the riders take the trip to Ushuaia, the city (pop. 35000) that the race is effectively built around, which means skirting along the banks of Lago Fagnano (the road is on the right here):

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The banks of the lake give way to the mostly gradual slopes of the Paso Garibaldi, the only route connecting Ushuaia by road to the outside world and plenty scenic in its own right. It's not a tough climb, but it is January. This then yields to a long rolling descent, interrupted only by the intermediate sprint at the Cerro Castor ski resort, a small resort nevertheless sometimes used by Alpine pros for the off-season training. After descending, we pass the second intermediate sprint in Ushuaia on Avenida Maipú, which will serve as the finishing line in the stages to come.

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This leads in to a short and sharp dig of a climb on Avenida Don Bosco leading into Avenida Kamshen, which then has a micro-descent leading into the final climb up to the ski resort at Cumbres del Martial, a scenic and twisty mountain road which is around 5km @ 5,5%, so will enable the more adept hilly and climby riders to make some moves, taking advantage of the varying fitness levels at this point in the season.

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Stage 2b: Circuito Maritimo (Ushuaia - Ushuaia), Contrarreloj Individual, 13,3km

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This shortish chrono is the afternoon's task after the MTF in the morning; the riders head back down into Ushuaia, where they set off from the waterfront to take on a few kilometres from the morning's stage in the reverse direction, including passing Paseo del Fuego, the world's southernmost shopping precinct, before a slight uphill rise - not at any gradients likely to take this out of the realms of the pure TTer, however - though the short length may help a few GC-types and even versatile sprinters stay in TT contention. The descent back into town includes the fast and straight downhill of Avenida Yaganes, which is named for the native settlers of the region and includes the Museo Maritimo. This should set up the GC well for the coup de gras, the final day.

Stage 3: Circuito del Fin del Mundo (Ushuaia - Ushuaia), 157km

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Annoyingly, the spacing of checkpoints on cronoescalada means that the short nature of many of these climbs means that they aren't picked up in the profile, but rest assured this is a nasty day of up and down, with ten laps of a 15,7km circuit with - count them - seven climbs per lap. None of them are particularly long or strenuous, but my anticipation is that this will still be won by somebody who's punchy or even an excellent climber, because looking at similar up-and-down-all-day routes with a long flatter section on one side and then several times scaling the same hillside, I look back to the 1980 Olympic Road Race on the Krylatskoye Ring, which was won by fabled climber Sergey Sukhoruchenkov, or the 1997 Spanish National Championships in Melilla, a circuit with no real climbs but several short ramps, which was won by José María Jiménez. Given the nature of the field drawn by races like San Luís, a climber could well take this even though none of the climbs are especially sustained. The climbs are:

Calle San Martín, 400m @ 6,3% @ km
Avenida San Luís, 350m @ 6,6%
Avenida Neuquén, 360m @ 9,7%
Marcos Zar, 880m @ 4,7%
Avenida Presidente Héctor Campora, 220m @ 8,6%
Avenida Don Bosco, 380m @ 7,5%
Comodoro Augusto Lasserre, 790m @ 3,9%

With the final slopes just 2,5km from the line, however the final kilometre being almost purely straight along Avenida Maipú and finishing just before the Monumento Malvinas:

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I anticipate a mighty struggle on this stage; the sprint bonuses, the ITT and the uphill finish at Cumbres del Martial all lead into this difficult prototype Worlds circuit, as with all the climbs being so short, and the longer ones not really having any steep ramps, it's hard to tell if the climbers will really be at an advantage here; there's surely too much cumulative climbing for the sprinters, but then does that make it a breakaway or a classic man's stage? 7 climbs in a 16km circuit is a lot, but their cumulative distance is under 3,5km - however the steepest ramps get up to nearly 20% - in the earliest climbs on the circuit, San Luís and Neuquén - so is this too explosive for the rouleurs? This could be an intriguing one.

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And then, of course, after the race is done, the riders could take a day or two before heading north for San Luís to enjoy the sights of Tierra del Fuego - whales and penguins are two of the main attractions to the region, besides its amazing scenery. Having seen comical photos like the one of Alejandro Valverde with a kangaroo at the Tour Down Under, who could resist a similarly amusing theme in the southern tip of Patagonia?
 
Oct 4, 2015
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Well, that's a different idea out there... I like it.

I think now I'll post a Vuelta design now. Starting in Madrid, finishing in the Canary Islands (Libertine has already done this before but w/e). I'll have to change some of the stages, though, since they are way too similar to Libertine's (particularly the ones at the islands).

Also I just remembered since I was checking the topic library at the beginning of the topic, the links are all broken (I have to change the "showpost" part at the link for "viewtopic" to make them work). Just pointing that out.
 
Oct 4, 2015
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I'll skip on the start/end of stage pics this time, and just show the stages (and outstanding profiles).

Vuelta a España Stage 1: Madrid - Madrid, 18km (TTT)
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The Vuelta a España usually ends with a sprint stage in a circuit in downtown Madrid. However, in this fantasy Vuelta, we start in Madrid instead, with a short team time trial. Starting from the Palacio Real, finishing inside the Parque de El Retiro. No big gaps expected, just a typical Vuelta opener.
 
Ha, my next project is going to be my much-delayed 5th Vuelta, there's a lot of great minds thinking alike here.

You know the rules on my Vueltas by now, though: no repetition of MTFs, so therefore the following are excluded from use as stage finishes:
- Alto da Torre (Seia)
- Andorra (Els Cortals d'Encamp)
- Andorra (Llac d'Engolasters)
- Angliru
- Coll de Pal
- Cumbres Verdes
- Estación de Esquí Candanchú (Puerto de Somport)
- Estación de Esquí Lunada
- Font de Partagas
- Fuente del Chivo
- Haza del Lino (Rubite)
- Lagos de Covadonga
- Lagunas de Neila (Neila)
- Peñón de Gibraltar
- Puerto de la Morcuera (Miraflores de la Sierra)
- San Miguel de Áralar
- Santuário del Acebo
- Teleférico del Teide
- Xorret del Catí

Never fear though, for I'm going a different route with this, producing a route which I think Javier Guillén would be happy with even despite just six uphill finishes in the whole race. In fact, there are two long ITTs, very few uphill finishes and the longest of these is only 10km long, yet I still think Joaquím Rodríguez would have a chance of victory. And there are only about two stages where the GC guys don't have to be alert.
 
Oct 4, 2015
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I was between this and a Tour with never-used summit finishes, but I decided that since one of the latest races posted here was a Tour I might as well try something different.

Vuelta a España Stage 2: Las Rozas - Salamanca, 192km
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Climbs: Roncesvalles (3.9km @ 5,2%), Guadarrama (7,6km @ 7,1%)

The second stage is a hilly one, heading northwest of Madrid. The most important climb of the stage, Guadarrama, is located early on the stage. An uphill sprint in Salamanca is a likely outcome, but a breakaway might be able to snatch the win instead.
 
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Vuelta a España Stage 3: Zamora - Ponferrada, 205km
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Climbs: Foncebadón (11,7km @ 4,2%), Lombillo (2,6km @ 9,1%)

The third stage features two climbs as well, but this time they're at the end of the stage, instead than at the beginning. After a mostly flat first 150km the riders will face the first climb to Foncebadón from the east.
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Then, they will go through the finish line for the first time, before taking on the short yet very steep climb to Lombillo de los Barrios, followed by an equally steep descent back to Ponferrada.
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A difficult finish, which should prevent a sprint from happening. Good descenders might have a chance too, particularly with the long descent from Foncebadón.
 
I just finished the last stage of my new project and I hope I can post the first stage tomorrow.
The race:
After Sepp Blatter decided to switch from football to cycling to become the boss of the ASO it went bankrupt. The reason was that his assistant Zomegnan had the idea to finish the tdf 2020 on the Mont Blanc, after Chamonix gave them a lot of money. After a huge protest by all teams and fans the ASO had such a bad image that nobody wanted to watch the TdF anymore so they weren't able to organize a new one. However the UCI still wanted a third gt in the calendar so they searched for a new location. Firstly germany wanted to host the race alone but the application wasnt successful because its germany ( :p ). So Austria and Switzerland descended to host the event together with the germans.

So we have a new race in the official Gigs calendar called the DACH Rundfahrt (DACH is short for Deutschland, Austria, Confederatio Helvetica). The race will be in germany for the first week, the second one will be in Austria and at the end the race will finish in Switzerland. I planned this race for quite some time. The first two weeks are actually ready since the end of the Race Design challenge, but I didnt have the motivation to design the first week in Germany simply because designing flat or hilly stages is way more difficult. I hope the final route is balanced and realistic enough, but no matter if it will be good or not, I'm really looking forward to finally post something in this thread again. :D
 
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Vuelta a España Stage 4: Ponferrada - Alto del Naranco, Oviedo, 221km
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Climbs: Ocero (3km @ 5,8%), Argayo del Sil (3,5km @ 6%), Ventana (6,7km @ 4,8%), Cobertoria (8,1km @ 8,6%), Cordal (5,7km @ 8,5%), Pico de Lanza (2,9km @ 8,4%), Naranco (4,2km @ 7,2%).

Next comes a difficult medium mountain stage, finishing in an old classic climb. Starting from Ponferrada, the riders will face a series of small climbs in León, before crossing over into Asturias after passing the Puerto de Ventana.
Then, after a very scenic descent, the riders will face the west side of La Cobertoria.
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Followed almost immediately by the very steep south side of El Cordal.
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After these two climbs, there's some respite in the from of 15km of descending false flat... which then come to an end as we go up the penultimate climb of the day.
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The climb to Pico de Lanza (Picullanza in asturian) starts off with an extremely steep 1,5km section at around 11%, before tapering off into a more manageable gradient. It serves as a very interesting alternative approach to Oviedo, instead of the typical Padrún-Manzaneda duo.
Then, after riding across Oviedo, we climb the well-known Alto del Naranco, just north of the city, to reach the finish line (km 5,1 in the profile below).
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A dangerous stage, with several very steep climbs in the second half of it. Might knock out some GC riders, if they're caught offguard.
 

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