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Race Design Thread

Page 188 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re:

lemon cheese cake said:
Tonton, in real life, you Galibier stage would probably start in Bourg d'Oisans. Thankyou for finishing in/on Le Deux Alpes. I love that climb, especially as a double header with Alpe d'Huez before.

For the Galibier, I stated exactly that in my narrative, and voiced concerns that the tunnel won't be reopening any time soon...

I didn't want to add a climb after the descent of the Cold de Sarenne, thinking that gaps made downhill would not be possible to overcome before the finish. I edited a comment about the Jandri as well ;) , which would have made a great combination. But with MTF before and after, I would have had to rethink the entire stretch in the Alps had the finish been at Les2Alpes.

@LS: so what, you don't like my Tour :eek: ? I thought at least you would give me props for stage 9.

:p
 
Tonton, stage 9 was awesome. You've given me some food for thought regarding connecting climbs and there are some really, really great individual stages in there. But while many of us have settled into our own traceur formulae, I think the sum total of the route is a bit too radical at times, especially regarding the Grand Départ. Stage 1 in isolation might have been ok, but an HC MTT on stage 2 is probably overkill in the "coming out of the blocks hot" stakes. Something like a Col d'Èze ITT to start THEN stage 1 as stage 2 might have been more feasible I guess?

Cobbles AFTER the first set of mountains is a really good innovation though, that could produce some really interesting racing for sure.
 
lemon cheese cake said:
I have to agree with Libertine on this one. You've created the Vuelta a Francia. If you were trying to beat the previous Tour on this forum, then that hasn't worked as it is just an amalgamation of Zomegnan and Juillen races combined.
If you say "too many MTF" or "too Vuelta-ish", OK, I can accept that. If you say "not too realistic", maybe. Or "logistics nightmare". It's my first design (if you except the Tour de Betancur) and I put a lot of work into it. Like it or not, it's your prerogative. I don't think that I deserve that kind of post, though: I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything - read my Intro.

I'm glad that a few here enjoyed some of the stages (including my Jura stage) and climbs that I featured, some of which have escaped ASO's and your radar. So OK, maybe I went (a bit) overboard, but heck, I had fun doing it. I'll try to refrain next time. It's gonna be hard though :D .
 
Tonton said:
lemon cheese cake said:
I have to agree with Libertine on this one. You've created the Vuelta a Francia. If you were trying to beat the previous Tour on this forum, then that hasn't worked as it is just an amalgamation of Zomegnan and Juillen races combined.
If you say "too many MTF" or "too Vuelta-ish", OK, I can accept that. If you say "not too realistic", maybe. Or "logistics nightmare". It's my first design (if you except the Tour de Betancur) and I put a lot of work into it. Like it or not, it's your prerogative. I don't think that I deserve that kind of post, though: I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything - read my Intro.

I'm glad that a few here enjoyed some of the stages (including my Jura stage) and climbs that I featured, some of which have escaped ASO's and your radar. So OK, maybe I went (a bit) overboard, but heck, I had fun doing it. I'll try to refrain next time. It's gonna be hard though :D .
Ok. Sorry for being to harsh and jumping to conclusions. I just gave a brief look at each of the stage. I thought you were trying to beat the previous tour from what you said before your race was presented. Stages like your MTT on stage 2 would only be good if they were towards the middle or end of the race.

It's hard for all of us to refrain the overboardness I think, but mostly we just about manage it. :D
 
Tonton said:
lemon cheese cake said:
I have to agree with Libertine on this one. You've created the Vuelta a Francia. If you were trying to beat the previous Tour on this forum, then that hasn't worked as it is just an amalgamation of Zomegnan and Juillen races combined.
If you say "too many MTF" or "too Vuelta-ish", OK, I can accept that. If you say "not too realistic", maybe. Or "logistics nightmare". It's my first design (if you except the Tour de Betancur) and I put a lot of work into it. Like it or not, it's your prerogative. I don't think that I deserve that kind of post, though: I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything - read my Intro.

I'm glad that a few here enjoyed some of the stages (including my Jura stage) and climbs that I featured, some of which have escaped ASO's and your radar. So OK, maybe I went (a bit) overboard, but heck, I had fun doing it. I'll try to refrain next time. It's gonna be hard though :D .
Don't worry about refraining. Like I said, we all have different ideas, and we all have different aims in what we create. Realism might be a goal (e.g. with the exception of the one that did Las Canarias and Gibraltar etc., my Vueltas have been aimed at showing what the Vuelta could realistically achieve), but it might not (Progsprach's Hawaiian descent TTs and Eshnar's 21-stages-of-mountains Giri). Especially when putting races in areas that may have been outside other forum users' radars, many races which are overkill have been put forward, because the aim is to show everything that the area has to offer, which isn't always feasible to fit within one realistic race. That's part of why Eshnar went back to the well on the all-mountain Giro, and why I have the self-imposed "no repetition" rule regarding mountaintop finishes in my GT attempts (except Fedaia, which is allowed at all times). It's why I have never put an Österreichrundfahrt forward: far too many options to explore to create a race I'm happy with. The other thing is that tracing is meant to be fun. If you enjoy exploring the possibilities of one particular area, do it. . Does it always result in feasible or balanced Grand Tour routes? Of course not. But that's also part of the fun, our own trial and error. I look back at the first Vuelta I posted in the thread and think, there were some really bizarre stages and odd ideas in that, that I could do much better now, and it's a minor annoyance that I've now taken potential finishes like Monte Naranco and San Miguel de Áralar off the menu for future Vuelta attempts, in stages I'm not happy with looking back. My Melilla stage in the second was utter garbage compared to the much more interesting 1997 Spanish Championships route.

Also, the more routes you come up with, the more you learn about the geography and the easier it is to tweak for new ideas. An idea can spin off to another (I've lost track of the amount of times I've been trying for a route in a particular area then rather exceeded its geographical remit to go to something else, which ends up in things like a two week Deutschlandtour, or the odd Hoegaarden Gold Race type thing I did. The more the merrier in here, I say. Unless you're here to diss the Fedaia :p
 
lemon cheese cake said:
Tonton said:
lemon cheese cake said:
I have to agree with Libertine on this one. You've created the Vuelta a Francia. If you were trying to beat the previous Tour on this forum, then that hasn't worked as it is just an amalgamation of Zomegnan and Juillen races combined.
If you say "too many MTF" or "too Vuelta-ish", OK, I can accept that. If you say "not too realistic", maybe. Or "logistics nightmare". It's my first design (if you except the Tour de Betancur) and I put a lot of work into it. Like it or not, it's your prerogative. I don't think that I deserve that kind of post, though: I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything - read my Intro.

I'm glad that a few here enjoyed some of the stages (including my Jura stage) and climbs that I featured, some of which have escaped ASO's and your radar. So OK, maybe I went (a bit) overboard, but heck, I had fun doing it. I'll try to refrain next time. It's gonna be hard though :D .
Ok. Sorry for being to harsh and jumping to conclusions. I just gave a brief look at each of the stage. I thought you were trying to beat the previous tour from what you said before your race was presented. Stages like your MTT on stage 2 would only be good if they were towards the middle or end of the race.

It's hard for all of us to refrain the overboardness I think, but mostly we just about manage it. :D

Actually, I was just giving Andrew crap because he had some of the same stage starts/finishes, climbs, albeit in a very different stage of the Tour. I had most of my Tour done before he started posting his, even before ASO released the '16 edition. I did a lot of praying. And boom, ASO had a Super Lioran finish. I redid my Massif Central and after that, I decided to keep it as is, hope for the best. In the final days, Andrew had a stage to Barcelonnette, a start in Carcassonne, a finish in Superbagneres, and a Versailles-Paris...I couldn't believe it, hence my "you kill me" comment.
 
Deutschland Tour Stage 8: Mainz - Nuerburgring (195km)

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Climbs:
Schanzerkopf
Senheimberg
Bruttig-Fankeler Berg
Windhäuser Höfe
Mullenbachtal
Nuerburgring

Sprints:
Simmern
Buttig Fankel

Feed Zone:
Blankenrath

We start across the river from the finish in Wiesbaden, in Mainztoday. Then the riders will head west to the first steady climb of the Schanzerkopf. They then head off towards the prime at Simmern. Rolling terrain is followed by the feed zone at Blankenrath. we then head off to to the Senheimberg as the second climb of day. The prime is then at Bruttig Fankel. It is then onto the Bruttig-Fankeler Berg. A descen then flat is then followed by the climb of the Windhäuser Höfe. Rolling terrain is followed by the Mullenbachtal. More of the rolling stuff is followed by the finish climb of to the Nuerburgring, which only gets a Cat 3 as it is a finish climb.

Mainz:
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Nuerburgring:
nurburgring.jpg
 
Oct 27, 2015
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Tonton (btw, props for the reference),

Your design is very interesting.
Most of the stages you posted are fantastic, but I wonder about the overall balance of the route. As mentionnied before, that's a hell of a number of MTF - and not all IMHO are actually logistically feasible.
And I wonder how the riders would play it : I fear that it would not be "attacks everywhere" but "save our strength for the end".

I particularly love the idea of very tough early stages with a queen stage at the end. We discussed it previously, and I feel it's good, because it compels riders to be on top for 21 days - and not to "peak" dudring only 10 days.
Stage 16 in particular is the kind of stages I like most : lots of hills, neither of which is a monster, but a very tough day overall.

I was about to post my own attempt at a Tour.
But you (almost) robbed me of my queen stage :( ;)
(and Andrew of another - Barcelonnette, Superbagnere etc are on the hype it seems :D )
I'm wondering whether I should change everything or post it as it is (because the balance of the overall route is very different).
 
Deutschland Tour Stage 9: Nuerburgring ITT (ITT) (29km) (Sun)

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Climbs:
Hohe Acht

Sprints:
None (TT)

Feed Zone:
None (Not long enough/TT)

Time Split:
Ausgang von Sudschleife
Adenau
Hohe Acht

We start in the pitlane of the F1 circuit. They will head anti-clockwise out of the pitlane and onto the circuit before completeing a lap of the Sudschleifeclockwise. It is then across a spit point at the Ausgang von Sudschleife before entering the famous [urlhttp://www.motorcycleroads.com/ra-content/images/uploads/2012/01/nurburgring-map-0.jpg]Nordschleife[/url]. A split point is at the foot and peak of the top of the Hohe Acht climb. It is then back to the Sudschleife where they double back onto the Nordschleife before turning off to Stage 8's finish location.

Nuerburgring:
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images


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Aug 21, 2015
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Tonton said:
lemon cheese cake said:
Tonton said:
lemon cheese cake said:
I have to agree with Libertine on this one. You've created the Vuelta a Francia. If you were trying to beat the previous Tour on this forum, then that hasn't worked as it is just an amalgamation of Zomegnan and Juillen races combined.
If you say "too many MTF" or "too Vuelta-ish", OK, I can accept that. If you say "not too realistic", maybe. Or "logistics nightmare". It's my first design (if you except the Tour de Betancur) and I put a lot of work into it. Like it or not, it's your prerogative. I don't think that I deserve that kind of post, though: I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything - read my Intro.

I'm glad that a few here enjoyed some of the stages (including my Jura stage) and climbs that I featured, some of which have escaped ASO's and your radar. So OK, maybe I went (a bit) overboard, but heck, I had fun doing it. I'll try to refrain next time. It's gonna be hard though :D .
Ok. Sorry for being to harsh and jumping to conclusions. I just gave a brief look at each of the stage. I thought you were trying to beat the previous tour from what you said before your race was presented. Stages like your MTT on stage 2 would only be good if they were towards the middle or end of the race.

It's hard for all of us to refrain the overboardness I think, but mostly we just about manage it. :D

Actually, I was just giving Andrew crap because he had some of the same stage starts/finishes, climbs, albeit in a very different stage of the Tour. I had most of my Tour done before he started posting his, even before ASO released the '16 edition. I did a lot of praying. And boom, ASO had a Super Lioran finish. I redid my Massif Central and after that, I decided to keep it as is, hope for the best. In the final days, Andrew had a stage to Barcelonnette, a start in Carcassonne, a finish in Superbagneres, and a Versailles-Paris...I couldn't believe it, hence my "you kill me" comment.

Speaking of me, I really enjoyed your tour, you managed to visit just about every major part in France as opposed to mine that didn't really get into the northern part of France at all. A lot of cool ideas as well and a lot of places for me to look into that I hadn't heard of before. Maybe not the most realistic start but I would love for ASO to actually have a big time stage early as opposed to waiting until the second weekend for any real action. Never was a big fan of a MTT as I think the climbers need to take advantage of the climbs on the course but that is my opinion on it. You also managed to make the flat second week pretty interesting considering the geography.

As for competing tours, I don't think anyone is here to compete with anyone(besides the Race Design Challenge of course) but more to just throw their ideas out there. For my tour, I mainly had a few stages that I wanted to throw out there and a lot of stages between were just linking things together as best I could. I doubt you made your tour to compete with anyone else either.
 
1.1: GP Sierra de Ávila - Memorial José María Jiménez

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As I mentioned during my Vuelta, and also when I presented my Circuit d'Olot-Memorial Xavier Tondó one day race in Catalunya, I've always thought it a little sad that Marco Pantani and Frank Vandenbroucke both got memorial races, whether a brand new race (Memorial Marco Pantani) or an appropriation of an existing/resurrecting of an appropriately-located race (Binche-Tournai-Binche, now Binche-Chimay-Binche/Memorial Frank Vandenbroucke), while Spain's own iconic cycling tragedy, José María Jiménez, has not had the same bestowed upon him, even though Chava died earlier and younger than the other two.

In terms of racing style, Chava was cut from the same never-say-die cloth as Marco and Frank; searing through the 90s with a racing agenda based primarily on aggressive climbing and paying no heed to subsequent days' consequences. As a result, he was capable of the most imposing, destructive mountaintop victories... and also losing all of the time gained in seemingly innocuous places. There was also another thing that held Jiménez back from accruing a stronger palmarès: he was one of the true pure climbers. Tall but wispy, he would float up the steepest of slopes, but his chrono was diabolical. As an example, he lost thirteen minutes in the two long time trials in the 1999 Vuelta, and finished at +9'24" in 5th. Although it was not his best race, much like Frank Vandenbroucke it is something in that 1999 Vuelta that he is most well-known for. VDB may have won Liège-Bastogne-Liège, Omloop, Gent-Wevelgem and Paris-Nice, but the moment most often brought up in his veneration is the amazing Ávila stage where he towed and destroyed some pretty big name climbers in an intermediate stage. Likewise, Chava's 1999 Vuelta is far from his crowning moment, however that year he wrote himself into Vuelta legend once and for all, when in some pretty horrible weather (but nothing on 2002) he became the first man to triumph on the brutal slopes of the Angliru, which you can relive here as he chases down and defeats the escape of Pavel Tonkov at the last minute. Try to remember in watching that, the climb was brand new at that point, and the Giro hadn't unveiled Zoncolan or Finestre... this only had the Mortirolo to compare to.

Jiménez had been a good prospect, winning the Circuito Montañés in 1992 and with two wins in the difficult mountain Classic the Subida a Urkiola, paired with San Sebastián and finishing on one of País Vasco's nastiest and most heralded climbs (known as the Grand Cathedral of Basque cycling) in the mid-90s, he was developing a name as a mountain specialist. After working his tail off as a domestique for Miguel Indurain, he was allowed a bit of development time of his own. Coming 12th in the 1996 Vuelta, he stepped to the forefront towards the end of the 90s. He made the top 10 of the 1997 Tour de France, albeit over half an hour back from the unstoppable '97-vintage Ulle (the same man he'd be within 10 minutes of despite 13 mins of time trial losses two years later), in service of Olano, and then gave birth to the Chava of legend with a blistering late attack to win a tough stage into Los Ángeles de San Rafaél over Navacerrada and the Alto del León in the King of the Mountains jersey; although had he not led the competition, he would have been able to do it in the national champion's jersey he had won a few months earlier on a hilly course in Melilla (thus proving that Abarcá making sucky national champion's jerseys is nothing new...).

1998 was Jiménez's year. Winning a key mountain stage in the Vuelta a Asturias marked his form out, and winning atop Mont Ventoux in the Dauphiné showed he was a force to be reckoned with in the mountains, and though he entered the race as a nominal superdomestique for Abraham Olano, his blistering climbing form led to a splintering of the team; Chava would deadweight others' attacks and take the lead on two occasions, the second from his team leader with just a couple of stages remaining (though he - of course - lost out massively in the ensuing time trial). He took four stage wins, all key mountains. First was Xorret del Catí - another of those super-steep brutes - then came back to back wins in Vallnord Sector Pal and Cerler, before winning the only time the Vuelta has ever finished at Lagunas de Neila.

The strong field in the 1999 race and some issues with form pacing meant Chava was less potent, only taking the one stage win, though consistent top 5 positions on all mountain stages meant he scored his third straight GPM. 2000 was a less successful year, though he continued his quest to become the undisputed king of Andorra, taking the final two stages of the Volta a Catalunya on mountaintops in the country (Els Cortals and La Rabassa) to take the overall GC, adding to prior wins in Pal ('98 Vuelta) and won the Classique des Alpes. Some strong performances in the Tour were tempered by some abysmal stages, and he left the Vuelta early. In 2001, the mythical climber was back, winning another GPM at the Vuelta along with three stages - once more all mountaintops, two of which were in Andorra (Vallnord Sector Pal once more, and the MTT to Arcalis), and also the steep closing climb of Alto Cruz de la Demanda in La Rioja. It was his last stage win of his career, and secured the mountains classification once more, a fitting way for him to sign off.

And then, he was gone. Jiménez had always had problems with depression, and later in his career these became more and more pronounced. He retired from cycling early in 2002, and got married, but his life without cycling was no less troubled than his life with it; if anything, the time away from the bike exacerbated things. It is widely accepted that he rather fell into the wrong circles; heavy drinking and drug intake paid its price, as with the other stars of the era taken young. Chava lived out his final days in a psychiatric hospital, before succumbing to a heart attack at the age of 32. One of cycling's last tragedies, and one of the last true mythical climbers, had crested the final summit.

Chava.png


While the Memorial Marco Pantani and Memorial Frank Vandenbroucke have routes that try to honour their iconic namesakes, they are both hamstrung by location. The first winner of the race named for Pantani was Daniele Bennati, and it has also been won by Elia Viviani, Enrico Rossi, Sonny Colbrelli and Roberto Ferrari. The Memorial Frank Vandenbroucke has been a little more successful in honouring the attacking soul of VDB, but the first three editions were all won in sprints. However, the terrain around El Barraco is better suited to a race honouring the great mythical climber, so hopefully this will not be a concern.

El Barraco is a small town to be hosting such a race, but a) it's larger than Priego, which used to hold the Trofeo Luís Ocaña after the great rider's suicide in 1994; and b) it's the home of the Fundación Deportivo Victor Sastre, which supports cycling development all over the Sierra de Ávila and is run by the father of the great Carlos Sastre of course. Sastre's wife is the sister of José María Jiménez, and the great 80s climber Ángel Arroyo also came through the system in the town - he is in fact a cousin of Chava's. It is a town with far more cycling heritage and history than you might expect of a town so small; a Spanish Palù di Giovo. C) the town's cycling club is called the Club Deportivo José María Jiménez "El Chava", which also organizes a memorial group ride to the town's fallen hero much as Olot/Sant Joan des Fonts has the Marxa 100x100 Tondó.

The actual course I've put to this race does a complicated looping over itself; it first descends from the higher plains of Ávila to the lower plains of the southern part of the province, around Arenas de San Pedro. The first challenge is the long and gradual north face of Puerto de Serranillos. This takes us to the mountain's foot town of Arenas de San Pedro, via a short climb of La Parra.

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From here, the climbs will get progressively more influential on the outcome. First up is one of the contenders for hardest climb of the day, Puerto de La Centenera, which has a much steeper final five kilometres that will need to be ridden at a hard pace to try to rid some of the weaker teams of helpers. It is followed immediately by the final few kilometres of Pedro Bernardo (we join the road where it has the junction to Puerto del Pico) before a long and technical descent.

The all important climb is Mijáres, which I alluded to in my Vuelta route where it was the first climb of the day on the penultimate day. It's a long but comparatively uncomplicated ascent; averaging around 5% most of the way. It crests with 48km remaining but it should be where the first real action takes place as, due to its length, it should be a battle of attrition.

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This gives way to an equally soaring and scenic descent, which then catapults us uphill once more into the steepest climb of the day, the short and nasty Puerto del Aguilones. This includes a couple of steep kilometres late on and should therefore create some opportunities for attacking, given that it crests 27km from home. The climb is the same as the first 4,5km of this profile (until the junction for Burgohondo):

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Aguilones also ought to be the most important point in the route; it is the focal point of the actual extant Memorial José María Jiménez, the everyman ride, and is a favoured training climb for riders in the area. It also enables us to remember that as a pure climber, Chava was able to match and beat the best on all types of climbs, from the gradual, drawn out ascents like Arcalis to the steep beasts like Anglirú; from long climbs to the short sharp bursts like Xorret del Catí. Finally, the last climb of the day is a comparatively easy one, the more gradual ascent into San Juan de la Nava, the next town over from El Barraco and thereby finishing just 5km from home. This ascent includes a couple of kilometres steep enough to create separation, but realistically riders without at least some kind of kick will have needed to go earlier than this to create the gaps they need as much of the climb is quite gradual.

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The last 5km are a fast downhill false flat into El Barraco, before a slight - but not so much as to be more than just perceptible save for a couple of nastier ramps - rise in the last 900m which take us to our finishing line, by the Memorial monument built in honour of El Chava. The final kilometre of this profile is the same final kilometre as we are climbing. The monument itself serves as the finish, and was designed by Chava's brother Juan Carlos; an identical monument has been erected in Ávila. Hopefully the kind of riders we'll be seeing home will honour what José María Jiménez brought to cycling: mercurial talent, stylish and attractive riding, great climbing ability and a flair for attacking.

Rest in peace, Chava. The cycling world needs people like you.
 
Jul 26, 2015
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Thats a good mix of climbs for a one-day race. The hardest is close to the finish, but not too close.
I didnt know about the connexions between Arroyo, Sastre and Jimenez. Indeed, thats impressive for a small city of 2.000 inhabitants !

STAGE 5 : Goris - Kapan, 236km.

Second stage in a row in the mountains.
This time, we'll go to the southern part of Armenia, in the Syunik region.
For the eye, its a marvel. The mountains, pure, the forests, the wilderness...

goris-cave-dwellings07.jpg


Old-Khndzoresk-Cave-Dwellings-Syunik-Province-%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%CC%81%D1%81-%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D0%A5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA-Armenia-Armenian-attractions.jpg

Cave dwellings of Khndzoresk.

For the legs...its another story.

Trapped between the Nagorno-Karabakh, officially in Azerbaijan, populated by armenians, and the Nakhichevan, an azerbaijani exclave between Armenia and Iran.
The joy of the ethnic mosaic of the Caucasus being used for political reasons throughout history...

Anyway, we'll move from the little city of Goris, in the northern part of the region, to the biggest one in the area : Kapan.
750px-Goris_panorama.jpg

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Goris is on the first picture, Kapan on the second. As you can see, they're both trapped between the mountains.

Borth suffered from the soviet explosion as well as the wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but they're still largely good enough to host our race, with respectively 20K and 45K inhabitants.
To link those two, the road will pass through a very unflat terrain, the first 60km are going to be very difficult to control.

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The first referenced climb is the road to Tatev and its monastery.


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How beautiful is that ?

That specific part is the hardest of the climb, which can be split in two, the climb to Tatev, and the climb above Tatev, the village and the monastery being in the middle, on a plateau.

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Those 5kms are at 9% average and will already test the riders. If you're not on a good day, its going to be awful.
The second part is easier, but its still irregular and overall, a cat.2 climb.
After 15km of valley or so, in order to reach Kapan, we'll move past the city where the finish will eventually take place in several hours and start our tour of the Zangezour, the mountain chain to the south.

The Meghri Pass (former Tashtun Pass) is very, very long.
Its irregular as well, as its basically made of several steps on the way, and that will hurt the diesel climbers.
In fact, it will hurt everyone, because 30km of climbing like that is no picnic.

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Kajaran is on the road, still 11km to reach the pass.

We'll reach the locality of Meghri, where the points classification might be changed, and we'll move back to Kapan, needing to use the Gomaran Pass to do so.
Its running as a parallel way to the Meghri Pass, but its shorter. And of course, as it is shorter, its steepier.

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Meghri, alongside the iranian border.

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The gorge of the Meghri River.

The problem for the riders being that 26.5km is far from actually being short, and with an average gradient of 6.7%, its actually really steepier.

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Less irregular than his predecessor (that explains why its shorter), even though its already quite the legbreaker, the hardest part is right at the end, and you got 17km of climbing to do on a road as steep or steeper than 7% of average slope.
And riders should be happy. The other side of the Gomaran Pass, which will be done as the descent is atrocious (basically 10km/10%). They wont climb it, but gaps could be created here as well.
The race is far from over.

We still have to reach Kapan, and the road is certainly not flat around here. We still have 30km of rollercoaster alongside the border, with two more climbs referenced. Much shorter, of course.
The climbs to Shikahogh and then to Chakaten are 2.7 and 3.3km long, but they should provide enough of a challenge to split any potential group of riders with the gradient, which is over 9%. Of course, at this stage we can expect groups to be closer to trios and quintets rather than proper groups. If they're not even alone.

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The riders will reach Kapan after 236 km and over 6.000m of elevation gain.
We can expect fireworks today.

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(Tatev : 11 - 12 - 8.5 - 5.4 - 10.5 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 7.5 - 7 - 3.5 - 5.5 - 9 - 6)
(Meghri Pass : 5.4 - 5 - 7 - 5.5 - 6.5 - 2.5 - 2 - 2 - 2.5 - 3.5 - 2.5 - 7 - 10.5 - 2 - 0 - 2 - 5.5 - 2.5 - 6 - 6 - 2.5 - 11.5 - 9.5 - 8.5 - 7.5 - 3 - 8 - 10.5 - 7.5 - 8.5 - 2.5)
(Gomaran Pass : 1.5 - 8.5 - 2.5 - 9.5 - 7.5 - 5 - 7.5 - 7.5 - 7.5 - 3.5 - 8 - 6 - 10.5 - 2 - 9 - 4.5 - 7 - 9 - 7 - 6 - 8.5 - 6.5 - 8 - 7.5 - 9 - 10.5)

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Tonton said:
How can you get more than 3 attachments on one post?

By going to site like Imgur, Imageshack to name a couple.
Copy the URL in and put it in the forum like this:
[ img ] the URL [ /img ]
however without the spaces. Use the bar with bold, underline and quote to do this.

You can do the same thing with website:
[ url ] the URL [ /url ]
again without the spaces.

For text to be linked to a web page, do it like this:
[ url=the URL ] the text [ /url ]
again without spaces.
 
Steven Roots said:
STAGE 4 : Erevan - Lake Kari, 149km.

I would have never imagined to see Armenia ever appear in this thread. :p

Anyway, I like your idea. Unfortunately the stage before ended in Turkey which means that the riders need to do a 1000km-transfer loop through Georgia to get to Yerevan, as the Armenian-Turkish border is still very very closed.
 
Oct 4, 2015
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I guess I can post a one-day race for now... in a somewhat unusual location.

VUELTA A VALPARAÍSO (Viña del Mar - Viña del Mar, 227km)
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This race will take place in Chile, a country without much cycling tradition... but with lots of mountains, due to being sandwiched between the Andes and the Pacific Ocean. And, while this race doesn't use the big mountains, it still features some incredibly steep roads, in an Ardennes classic-like route in one of Chile's most populous cities, Valparaíso.
We start in nearby Viña del Mar, a well-known tourist hotspot just north of of Valparaíso, then head north to nearby Concón, to take on the short Reñaca wall. With 1,6km averaging around 10%, this could be a good spot for a breakaway to form.
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The race now heads east to Limache through mostly flat terrain, then doubles back west through Quilpué, before taking on the shallow climb to Palmar El Salto, a palm tree reserve east of Valparaíso.
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After this, we enter Valparaíso proper for the first time, then take on a quick sequence of three walls: Rodelillo, Miraflores and Tamarugal. Riders will do well in remember these ones, since they will be climbed again later in the race, and will probably decide the race's winner.
The riders will then pass through the start/finish line in Viña del Mar, then head along the coast back to downtown Valparaíso, from where they'll take on the short yet very steep climb up Calle Alemania. Barely 1km long, but if GPS gradients are to be believed, with hardest slopes at almost 20%, this one might hurt quite a bit.
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This climb is only a warm-up for what comes next, though. Right after Alemania's dangerous descent, we'll take on the race's hardest climb: Chaparro. A brutal wall, with its hardest section coming before the middle of the climb, with roughly one km at 15%. This should select which riders will fight for the win in Viña del Mar.
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After we descend down from the mountains south of Valparaíso, we climb back up from the south to La Pólvora. An irregular ascent, much les steep than the previous two climbs.
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Then, we tackle the final three climbs of the race. First comes Rodelillo, an irregular climb with a killer first km at 12% through concrete roads, followed by a more manageable section in the middle with a sharp 13% sting at the end. A good place for decisive attacks, but some riders might try to wait for the next climb instead.
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The second of the final climbs is Miraflores. Easier than Rodelillo, but still very hard, with a very difficult 13-15% cobbled section in the middle.
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The winner will probably be decided with an attack at Miraflores, but there's still one last climb left, Tamarugal. Shorter and less steep than the previous climbs, and in a much wider road. Good for a rider to attempt to break out of a group at the last moment... if they still can.
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A hard race, which should be decided with an attack in the final 35km, in Rodelillo or Miraflores. However, with barely any rest in the final 75km, the group fighting for the win should already be very small by the time they make it to the final climbs.
 
Jul 26, 2015
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You forgot to talk about the Valparaiso's colourful aspect, i believe. That could be a cracking race.

Bye Bye Bicycle said:
I would have never imagined to see Armenia ever appear in this thread. :p

Anyway, I like your idea. Unfortunately the stage before ended in Turkey which means that the riders need to do a 1000km-transfer loop through Georgia to get to Yerevan, as the Armenian-Turkish border is still very very closed.

Thanks for the reply, the route is i think believable, the logistics are not. When you have to cover so much ground, there is no way around this and there is the political aspect of the things...
We have to assume that the race is so popular that it will help to finally end a centenary fight between neighbours.

STAGE 6 : Tabriz - Ardabil, 224km.

After two terrible stages, we're back on a more normal road.
With the third country of the race : Iran.
Tabriz is the major city of Eastern Azerbaijan, in Northwest Iran, and got many monuments and historical features in the area.
Its also the same Tabriz from the Tabriz Petrochemical Team, running in the Asia Tour, with success, since 7 years now.

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El-Golü's Pars Hotel
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Arg-E Tabriz, 700 years old fortress
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Tabriz

We're going today to Ardabil, known for its rugs and carpets, another city with a serious azerbaijan community. As we're doing a race that follows the former Silk Road, i think it was a pretty mandatory stop to do.
And for a sport that loves to put dirt under carpets, even more so.

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There is also the tomb and a sanctuary for Shaikh Safi ad-Din, founder of the Safavids order. The dynasty will eventually rule Persia for over 200 years and have a major impact in history.

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Going closer to the Caspian Sea, the road will be flatter today, but there is still going to be an issue for fat sprinters, with the climb to Manqutay, classified as of 3rd category level.
7.4km with 3.9% gradient average is not exactly awful, but its a potential problem for them if a team with a more versatile german, norwegian or slovakian rider pushes the rythm up.

The finish line is not right there, though, thankfully for them, as we're going to do 224km today, with about 50km to be done on a flattish road after the descent. Its a relatively open stage, even if the sprinters should be in control of the fate of this one, as coming after two huge mountain stages, there might be a need to calm things down.

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There are way too many options for traceurs in Spain; much like Italy, Austria or Switzerland, you are spoilt for choice. Unlike France or Germany, where the important climbs are generally tied together in a relatively geographically clustered area (while France does have alternative mountain ranges, and many of us have tried to use them, it's very easy for Jura stages to back directly into the Alps, or Cévennes stages to back directly into the Pyrenées, for example), you can design several routes for a race and still have entire areas unexplored. And so it is with La Vuelta; Unipublic have neglected large swathes of the country and, though they are continually discovering new climbs now and adding new start and finish towns to their repertoire, there are still myriad possibilities unused, for a variety of reasons. I know I just got finished on a Vuelta, but I have so many different ideas for routes around Spain and so many climbs and routes to show that it's absurd. That was part of why I instigated the "no repeated MTF/HTF" rule, which means that over my five routes, the following are now off-limits as finishes:

- Albergue de Montaña "Club Ancáres"
- Alto da Torre (PT)
- Angliru
- Coll de Pal
- Costiña de Canedo (Ourense)
- Cumbres Verdes
- Els Cortals d'Encamp
- Estación de Esquí Aramón-Valdelinares
- Estación de Esquí Candanchú
- Estación de Esquí Lunada
- Font de Partagas
- Fuente del Chivo
- Haza del Lino (from Rubite)
- Lagos de Covadonga
- Lagunas de Neila (from Neila)
- Llac d'Engolasters (from La Comella)
- Monte Naranco
- El Peñón de Gibraltar
- Preventori d'Alcoi
- Puerto de la Morcuera
- San Juan del Monte (Miranda de Ebro)
- San Lorenzo de El Escorial
- San Miguel de Áralar
- Santuari de Queralt
- Santuário del Acebo (from Las Cuadrielles)
- Teleférico del Teide
- Valdepeñas de Jaén
- Xorret del Catí

...and yet, while I may have put many Vuelta staples like Angliru and Covadonga off the menu... there's a lot of options still. I have not one, not two, but three nascent Vueltas, each different to the last and each different to each other. My first Vuelta was a scrappy affair trying to show a bit of what was being missed. The second was experimental, a logistical nightmare testing the boundaries of Spanish geography. The third was an attempted conciliation with the goals of Unipublic at present. The fourth was slightly experimental (mainly the Moroccan start and Catalan finish) while the most recent was an attempt at showing that if they really want to go the short-and-steep route, the Vuelta could be the best damned medium mountain race in the world.

But there's more.
 
Vuelta VI: Revenge of the EPO Era

Stage 1: Toledo - Toledo, 147km

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GPM:
Cerro de los Palos (3a Paso)(cat.3) 3,2km @ 4,6%
Cerro de los Palos (6a Paso)(cat.3) 3,2km @ 4,6%
Cerro de los Palos (9a Paso)(cat.3) 3,2km @ 4,6%

All of my first four Vueltas were clockwise, this sixth Vuelta however follows the anti-clockwise route of the one just gone, although seeking out entirely different climbs and taking on different parts of the country and entire mountain areas not yet investigated as my course of innovation has turned out to be relatively successful. We open up with something that isn't exactly innovative, but is certainly different for the Vuelta. Which, when you think about it, maybe it shouldn't be: a circuit race. The Vuelta is often raced by many of its non-GC-minded participants for the primary purpose of training and preparation for the World Championships, although its popularity for this purpose has been eroded somewhat in recent years by the rise of the Tour of Britain, which presents a series of stages with small teams over some rolling terrain and short to medium length hills, often with complex, technical run-ins, and also the instigation of the Canadian racing week with the GP Quebec and Montréal.

Though this stage is short, far, far shorter than any Worlds RR should ever be for the elite men (but a good length for the junior men and elite women), the course does ape the kind of route we often see from the Worlds - hilly but not super selective. I decided we needed a historic and scenic city that would have enough prestige and status to afford and to honour the race's start, and Toledo struck me as a perfect choice. It's a beautiful city with a historic, UNESCO-inscribed centre; it's close to Madrid offering plenty of options in terms of which direction the race goes in from here, and the terrain around the city itself is rolling but without needing to stray too far from the city to provide a challenge - yet not overlooking a range of worthwhile local obstacles as we might be if the stage were held in, say, Ávila or Segovia. The idea is to start the race off with some meaningful racing and come out of the blocks with some GC-relevant racing but without producing something that wouldn't be at least plausibly done by a real race organizer.

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Toledo has recent history with La Vuelta; it hosted a stage each year in 2008, 2009 and 2010. The 2008 stage approached from the south and was won in a sprint by Paolo Bettini, with a late repecho reducing the bunch slightly. 2010 saw an interesting finale where they climbed Cerro de los Palos, the hill above the city to the southwest, descended back towards the city, and then the sprint included a final ramp which allowed Philippe Gilbert to get daylight and sprint to the win. In 2009, between the two, an ITT took place on the penultimate day which was won by David Millar, ahead of Xacobeo's David Herrero Llorente, on what turned out to be his penultimate pro racing day; the Basque, having already burnt his bridges with Euskaltel, fell out with Álvaro Pino and nobody wanted to take him on, so he disappeared from the sport straight after.

The stage consists of 10 laps of a 14,7km circuit around the city's beautiful surroundings. There are two ascents to keep note of on each lap. The first is the categorized one; Cerro de los Palos is a fairly benign climb but enough to be felt at a little over 3km in length and with a couple of steeper ramps. Points are only given on laps 3, 6 and 9 for the climb however; this is simply to avoid giving out too many points in stage one. You can see in the footage of the 2010 stage much of this stretch, the period from the climb all the way to when they cross the river shortly before the end is included in this stage. However, when they cross the cobbled stretch after going across the river in the 2010 stage, my stage takes a hard left and takes on a short and tough drag up into the city.

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The riders start ascending the Cuesta de los Cantos Doce pictured above before turning onto Calle Miguel de Cervantes. We then head onto the cobbles of Calle Union, which heads under an arch then into a hairpin left and another left to go directly over the same arch. After this, we circumnavigate the historic Alcázar that dominates the city's skyline.

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This takes us around a final uphill ramp, a narrow 150m stretch on the Cuesta de los Capuchinos before a slightly downhill but flattish final 250m to the finishing line at Plaza Zocodover. This could be spectacular.

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While the finish includes some narrow stretches and technical corners, it's definitely not any worse than the Warszawa stage of the Tour de Pologne this year, which lasted out just fine; in addition to this, the circuit is far more complex than that one and as a result the bunch competing on this slope by the time the racing hits full speed on the last couple of laps will likely be somewhat smaller. It has a lot more to do with the original stage 1 proposed for the 2013 Giro than any comparable Vuelta stage in recent years to be honest, but realistically, what better way to prepare for the Worlds than to open up the Vuelta with a stage like this? Far more interesting than a straightforward TTT and yet achievable, viable and doable in almost every way; giving the fans something more intriguing to watch than a straight sprint stage or a chrono, giving the people of Toledo their money's worth for the privilege of hosting, and still being something that Unipublic wouldn't be called insane for attempting (which might be a first, actually...), no?
 
Deutschland Tour Rest day: Nuerburg/Karlsruhe (Transfer of about 250km) (Mon)
As always in races longer than 9 days, we have a rest day after the second weekend on the monday (The tour and vuelta sometimes have it on a tuesday). To get to the stage start in Karlsruhe, each team will take it's two/three team cars, mechanics truck, team bus and other vehicles (including a kitchen/dining truck if you can afford it) on a journey around 240kms south. This journey most likely will be done on the sunday evening following the stage 9 ITT. Once there the riders will probably go for a short ride on the edge of the Schwarzwald(Black forest) to keep the legs working, ready for a hilly stage in the same forest.

Deutschland Tour Stage 10: Karlsruhe - Erzgrube (170km) (Tue)

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Climbs:
Freiolsheimberg
Dobelberg
Langenbrand
Liebenzellerstraße
Oberlengenhardt
Zavelsteinerberg
Schernbachberg

Sprints:
Bad Liebenzell
Altensteig

Feed Zone:
Neuhausen

Some riders don't react well to rest days. Even if they do hard efforts it's not the same as riding for between 140 - 200 kilometres each day. We saw this with the first rest day in the tour this year. Big names dropping out of the GC group early on the last climb. I want to see something similar...

Whereas in the Tour they had a very late TTT the day before the rest day, with a hard Summit Finish (made harder by the heat) following on the tuesday, I have gone for something different. On stage 9 we had an ITT with a medium mountains stage the day before. After the rest day we now have another medium mountains stage and something that Zomegnan would love, on stage 10.

The stage starts in Karlsruhe. To be precise, by the Schloß Karlsruhe. We then head south west to the town of Malsch, before heading east to start the first climb of the day. This is the
Freiolsheimberg. This is the toughest climb of the day with an average gradient of 6.5%. So with the toughest maybe showing who's slightly weaker, the riders head for the second climb today, which is the Dobelberg. It is shortly followed by the Langenbrand. It is another third cat climb. Before the feed at Neuhausen, a climb called the Liebenzellerstraße. Then is the prime at Bad Liebenzell.
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This is at the foot of the next climb on the stage, which is the Oberlengenhardt. In the second half we have less catorgorised climbs, though a few lumps and bumps are inclcuded along the way. One though is catorgorised. It is the Zavelsteinerberg. As I said, a few lumps and bumps follow. Flat is then resumed after a hilly day, as we cross the final prime of the day, in Altensteig. We then head for the final climb to give some riders a launch pad to the finish. The Schernbachberghas a couple of steep ramps so anyone suffering and holding on for grim death might be spat out of a reduced peloton. They then head into Erzgrube, the finish town. They then leave it and finish alongside the Nagoldtalsperre.

Schloß Karlsruhe:
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Erzgrube/Nagoldtsperre:
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Stage 2: Aránjuez - Arenas de San Pedro, 193km

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GPM:
Puerto de El Piélago (cat.1) 15,1km @ 4,9%
Puerto del Pedro Bernardo (cat.1) 18,4km @ 4,4%
Alto de La Parra (cat.3) 2,9km @ 6,1%

The second stage of the Vuelta is also a potential GC banana skin; we're not going with an MTF like the 2013 Vuelta did and Monte da Groba, but while the climbs here are not especially steep and threatening, they are long enough to have an effect this early in the race, especially as some riders who've done the Tour will likely have had to rest up through most of the interim so may be looking to build form for later in the race.

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The stage begins a little to the northeast of Toledo, in the southern tip of the Comunidad de Madrid, in the historic city of Aránjuez. One of the main royal palaces is located here, and it played host to a number of historic events during the Spanish Enlightenment; it was selected as the host for the watersport events in the Madrid Olympic bids and the impressive palatial gardens served as the inspiration for the main reason the city is famous to many - Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aránjuez, almost undisputably the most famous piece of classical music for guitar ever written.

The first half of the stage is pretty flat, rolling through the northern edge of Castilla-la Mancha past Toledo and towards the Sierra de Gredos. It is fairly straightforward and stays away from heading straight through the middle of the city we raced through and around yesterday. The second half, however, is much tougher. It includes some serious climbs little known to the Vuelta (somewhat surprisingly given their proximity to Madrid and potential value in stages to Ávila), and riders will need to be alert so as not to lose time on these slopes even despite the benign gradients.

The first climb, the Puerto de El Piélago, is the highest road in the Sierra de San Vicente and was included in the original draft of stage 18 of the 2009 Vuelta, however when the race came to the road it had been removed. There are a great many ways to climb El Piélago, however I have gone for perhaps the most direct, the southern face via Castillo de Bayuela. From this side we are talking 15km @ 5% with a steepest kilometre at 8,4%.

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El Piélago is arguably the toughest climb in Castilla-La Mancha; the Alto Rey and the Puerto de la Borriqueta are also possible - you can make an argument for each. This climb crests 65km from the line and then a long, sweeping descent follows before we head to the second cat.1 climb of the stage, the long and drawn-out ascent of the Puerto de Pedro Bernardo. You could make a convincing argument that this is arguably only a cat.2 climb, given that it has very little in the way of serious ramps (steepest kilometre at 6,5%) and the average gradient is only 4,4%. However, at nearly 20km in length and finishing just 24km from the line, it's a potential banana skin and cat.1 is feasible. More realistically, because its steeper gradients are near the bottom, it will serve as an attritional ascent and hopefully rid us of many domestiques, durable sprinters and puncheurs who are not as able to handle the longer climbs who may have factored into a more negative racing style later on.

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The majority of the remainder of the stage is a technical descent. With 7km remaining, we suddenly jolt back uphill again. With the bunch hopefully reduced and thinned out by 35km of climbing between El Piélago and Pedro Bernardo, and most of the less durable puncheurs back down the road, the remainder of the péloton now have to take on a short sharp, but not overly steep climb to La Parra - just under 3km at a little over 6% with the steepest gradients at the top, and just 4km downhill to the line in Arenas de San Pedro, the main city in Castilla y León south of the Sistema Central. This will hopefully see a few back and forth attacks because even for those that don't have overall GC ambitions, there is a good chance that a few stages in the red jersey will be on the line. Those who do have GC ambitions, however, will need to be alert and make sure that they don't lose more than they need to here in the early running.

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I like the Silk Road tour.


Giro d'Italia

prologue: Napoli 3,8 km
stage 1: Napoli - Napoli 169 km
stage 2: Castellammare di Stabia - Avellino 105 km
stage 3: Benevento - Termoli 214 km
stage 4: Peschici - Vieste 161 km
stage 5: Manfredonia - Ostuni 228 km
stage 6: Santa Maria di Leuca - Otranto 52 km ITT

(Sat) stage 7: Taranto - Acri, 242 km

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This is the longest stage of the Giro, and the first one with proper mountains. We finally leave Puglia, where we spent three days, ride through Basilicata and enter Calabria. The first 140 km are dead flat along the Ionian coast, the final 100 km however take place in the Sila mountains. The first two climbs are easy, the third one is harder with 7 km at 7%.

final 35 km:
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The main climb of the day is the Varco San Mauro which starts at km 206. This is not the ascent that is listed at cyclingcols, as we are using a smaller and steeper road, which is also quite pretty. The climb is 11,5 km long and averages at 9%. As you can see from the profile, there are some steeper sections, like a kilometer at more than 13% in the middle of the climb, or 1,2 km at 12% after km 8.

After the summit there is a flat part, then a gorge is the last obstacle on the way to Acri. Therefore we descend and climb up from the gorge. This final climb is quite short at 2,7 km, but the average gradient of 9,9% should provide fireworks. From the top only 3 km are left to ride, most of it downhill, only the last 200 meters are uphill.

Taranto
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Acri
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Giro d'Italia

(Sun) stage 8: Cosenza - Paola, 166 km

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Sunday also sees a lot of climbing, but while the Acri stage should see the first battle of the gc guys, today might be one for a breakaway. We start right away with the 25 km climb to Válico di Montescuro, and crest Monte Botte Donato a few km later. There should be quite some fight to get into the group of the day, while the sprinters will try to hold onto the field.

In a large loop we nearly return to Cosenza, but then head to the Tyrrhenian Sea via Monte Cocuzza. The final climb is Passo della Crocetta (16 km at 6%). The first 5 km are the hardest and average at 9%, the next 5 km have 6% gradient, then it flattens out.

The final descent leads directly to the finish line. Descending towards the sea is always fascinating, in this case there are a lot of hairpins, but also faster sections with some quite dangerous corners.

Monday is a rest day and includes a transfer to Toscana.

Cosenza
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Paola
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first week:
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