Race interference: Protests, Sabotage, and Assaults

[GenericBoonenFan]

Right there is right thing to do

Oh, 100% agree
but we would be doing more wishful thinking than Go West

(that is a 90s fringe hit reference that few will get)

 

[CyclistAbi]

And the UCI won't pull the plug because if they were to do it with Israel they would have to the same with UAE (in the very least).

ATM i don't feel protests against UAE are of such scale that team representation in the peloton contributes to significant risk for the riders. As for the future, who knows. In my opinion teams will need to address it and to be sensitive in terms of not provoking backlash and as a result protests of such magnitude, that it starts to represent a security issue for the peloton. It's like with any other brand in existence today, serious thought is being put into this area and whenever such issue arises then usually quick and swift action is taken to de-escalate. In the end brands and companies aren't fighting protests, that huts their profits.

 

[Brullnux]

There's a 0% chance of this team or a predecessor missing out on the Tour next year.

Even if Adams suddenly decides to pull the plug or sell the team, someone is going to jump in and buy the license and take most of the riders. (And that is if Premier-Tech doesn't go solo for the next three years)

And the UCI won't pull the plug because if they were to do it with Israel they would have to the same with UAE (in the very least).

I don't think so, this would only really be the case for pre-2023 Israel. The promotion of Israel today is a very different proposition to the promotion of the UAE.

I'll try to stay within the rules and so I will be neutral as to the morality and I think this is directly related to cycling and the funding of teams within the sport. The 'sportswashing' of the UAE is basically the promotion of a regional geopolitical meddler (same goes for most countries); removing the link between the state and oil (same goes for many cycling teams); and 'washing' the country of its apartheid-style labour system and abuses of political dissidents (which have been alleged for some Palestinians in Israeli prisons pre-2023, too).

It is possible to draw a line between these activities and those of post-2023 Israel. The situation is more like Gazprom and Russia – alleged war crimes, alleged ethnic cleansing, and attempts at territorial expansion. The UCI can distinguish between this and UAE/pre-2023 Israel/Bahrain. It isn't pretty, but it is tenable.

I would of course prefer these teams to leave altogether (along with the petrochemical or hydrocarbon teams), but like you said it is wishful thinking. I don't think, though, that sidelining the promotion of Israel necessarily leads to the end of the UAE in cycling.

 

[Samamba]

I don't think so, this would only really be the case for pre-2023 Israel. The promotion of Israel today is a very different proposition to the promotion of the UAE.

I'll try to stay within the rules and so I will be neutral as to the morality, but the 'sportswashing' of the UAE is basically the promotion of a regional geopolitical meddler (same goes for most countries); removing the link between the state and oil (same goes for many cycling teams); and 'washing' the country of its apartheid-style labour system and abuses of political dissidents (which have been alleged for some Palestinians in Israeli prisons pre-2023, too).

It is possible to draw a line between these activities and those of post-2023 Israel. The situation is more like Gazprom and Russia – alleged war crimes, alleged ethnic cleansing, and attempts at territorial expansion. The UCI can distinguish between this and UAE/pre-2023 Israel/Bahrain. It isn't pretty, but it is tenable.

I would of course prefer these teams to leave altogether (along with the petrochemical or hydrocarbon teams), but like you said it is wishful thinking. I don't think, though, that sidelining the promotion of Israel necessarily leads to the end of the UAE in cycling.

Yeah it isn't the same cause you and many others simply do not know (or don't care about) the barbaric things UAE sponsors in Africa. It isn't just about oil or "modern slavery".

 

[Netserk]

I don't think so, this would only really be the case for pre-2023 Israel. The promotion of Israel today is a very different proposition to the promotion of the UAE.

I'll try to stay within the rules and so I will be neutral as to the morality and I think this is directly related to cycling and the funding of teams within the sport. The 'sportswashing' of the UAE is basically the promotion of a regional geopolitical meddler (same goes for most countries); removing the link between the state and oil (same goes for many cycling teams); and 'washing' the country of its apartheid-style labour system and abuses of political dissidents (which have been alleged for some Palestinians in Israeli prisons pre-2023, too).

It is possible to draw a line between these activities and those of post-2023 Israel. The situation is more like Gazprom and Russia – alleged war crimes, alleged ethnic cleansing, and attempts at territorial expansion. The UCI can distinguish between this and UAE/pre-2023 Israel/Bahrain. It isn't pretty, but it is tenable.

I would of course prefer these teams to leave altogether (along with the petrochemical or hydrocarbon teams), but like you said it is wishful thinking. I don't think, though, that sidelining the promotion of Israel necessarily leads to the end of the UAE in cycling.

That was on the initiative of IOC, not UCI. I think such a decision will only be made on a much higher level than cycling/UCI/ASO.

 

[Brullnux]

Yeah it isn't the same cause you and many others simply do not know (or don't care about) the barbaric things UAE sponsors in Africa.

No, I am aware of the UAE's presence in the wars in Ethiopia, along with that of Turkey and China, and their actions in Sudan.

There is just a tenable difference from the UCI's perspective of indirect sponsoring of alleged war crimes (which would cover the UAE, XDS-Astana, and any teams with close links to quite a few Western governments, especially the USA) and directly partaking in alleged war crimes.

That is all I am saying. I am not commenting on whether one is more immoral than the other (an endless debate that is of little value), just that the UCI can feasibly end the sponsorships of teams directly concerned with the promotion of, say, ICJ-indicted countries partaking in alleged war crimes while also not removing the UAE from cycling. And like I said, it isn't a pretty distinction, but it is one that can be self-contained.

 

[Brullnux]

That was on the initiative of IOC, not UCI. I think such a decision will only be made on a much higher level than cycling/UCI/ASO.

I agree, I don't think the UCI will take that sort of leap. I think they could do, but they would open themselves up to such extensive criticism that they won't.

 

[Samamba]

No, I am aware of the UAE's presence in the wars in Ethiopia, along with that of Turkey and China.

There is just a tenable difference from the UCI's perspective of indirect sponsoring of alleged war crimes (which would cover the UAE, XDS-Astana, and any teams with close links to quite a few Western governments, especially the USA) and directly partaking in alleged war crimes.

That is all I am saying. I am not commenting on whether one is more immoral than the other (an endless debate that is of little value), just that the UCI can feasibly end the sponsorships of teams directly concerned with the promotion of, say, ICJ-indicted countries partaking in alleged war crimes while also not removing the UAE from cycling. And like I said, it isn't a pretty distinction, but it is one that can be self-contained.

Yeah well, I can't really go into it here, but you are missing one very important country where a genocide is happening right now, with more deaths (estimates, not confirmed) than in Gaza.

You're kinda proving my point btw. You say that the UCI is probably fine with it cause they pay some goons to do it for them instead of doing it themselves. Which also just means, they are fine with it because people do not know or care about it.

Also just being indicted should not ever be enough for anything.

And just to be clear, it's super simple to fix it all and that's just to ban all state promotion. You're just asking for political problems if you let it happen. It's their own fault. Sponsoring is fine I guess (I rather have them all out but ok if those greedy fucks need the money), but blatently promoting with a name is just asking for trouble.

 

[AmRacer]

Currently UCI doesn't allow it, for organiser to remove a team that causes high risk and protests. The team itself i guess could do it.



Next year IMHO it will start at Giro already, that is if things stay the same as they are now. And after Vuelta there are still some races in 2025 season, on where it's reasonable to expect protests.



This indeed is another aspect of it, kudos to Jonas for pointing it out, some riders are prepared to endure it due to understanding on why the protests are happening. Still, IMHO other parties should do more, not to wash their hands and watch on how riders are the ones that need to deal with it on the road. It further show on how there is a total lack of empathy, on where it comes to riders safety in terms of governance.



Time will tell but i am almost certain that baton won't fix this one. We'll see.

Yeah, time will tell protesters aren't allowed to win becaue most people dislike anarchy.

 

[theyoungest]

Yeah it isn't the same cause you and many others simply do not know (or don't care about) the barbaric things UAE sponsors in Africa. It isn't just about oil or "modern slavery".

What you're doing is almost the exact definition of a "whataboutism". Obviously there's a degree of hypocrisy involved when all the protests are against Israel and none against any of the other dodgy sponsors... but you can't dictate what people care about and right now a lot of people care about the situation in Gaza.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@AmRacer

We'll see.

That was on the initiative of IOC, not UCI. I think such a decision will only be made on a much higher level than cycling/UCI/ASO.

Eventually IOC and UCI aligned their views by adopting joint resolution in 2023 but that doesn't mean UCI has not made any steps before that in 2022, basically immediately after the invasion has started, IOC and UCI joint resolution and alignment of views on the other hand took some time.

The UCI adopts a resolution in relation to the Olympic Movement’s position on the subject of sanctions taken against Russia and Belarus

The Management Committee of the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) met on 2 and 3 February in Hoogerheide (Netherlands), on the sidelines of the UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships, which are being held in the North Brabant town from 3 to 5 February.

www.uci.org

If that wouldn't have happened then protests would be the natural outcome. Or if for example UCI would have waited for one year, then IMHO protests would emerge also.

 

[AmRacer]

@AmRacer

We'll see.



Eventually IOC and UCI aligned their views by adopting joint resolution in 2023 but that doesn't mean UCI has not made any steps before that in 2022, basically immediately after the invasion has started, IOC and UCI joint resolution and alignment of views on the other hand took some time.

The UCI adopts a resolution in relation to the Olympic Movement’s position on the subject of sanctions taken against Russia and Belarus

The Management Committee of the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) met on 2 and 3 February in Hoogerheide (Netherlands), on the sidelines of the UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships, which are being held in the North Brabant town from 3 to 5 February.

www.uci.org

If that wouldn't have happened then protests would be the natural outcome. Or if for example UCI would have waited for one year, then IMHO protests would emerge also.

Yeps

 

[Red Rick]

They don't see the hypocrisy. Reading this topic is actually hilarious.

Considering the difference in magnitude, I would just call it irony, not hypocrisy. That word is thrown around too easily.

 

[Samamba]

What you're doing is almost the exact definition of a "whataboutism". Obviously there's a degree of hypocrisy involved when all the protests are against Israel and none against any of the other dodgy sponsors... but you can't dictate what people care about and right now a lot of people care about the situation in Gaza.

Ah screaming whataboutism to stop a dicussion. Standard. Yes it is, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with some whataboutism if the people who try to stop people everday lives to make a point and often cross the line while doing it act like they are morally superior but seem to only care about deaths in one part of the world.

Also I can't dictate what people care about indeed, but I'm not the one trying to. It's those protestors who do think they can dictate it. It's weird to turn this around. It's a very big mistake and slippery slope to do what radicalized people (yes they are when they start thinking being violent is fine cause others in the world have it worse) want you to do. The UCI bending the knee would be very problematic as long as it isn't the IOC doing something first or targeting every dodgy state promoting.

At least I'm consistent as Ive been against farmers or climate activists who think disturbing other peoples live to make a point is fine, even tho I mostly support their viewpoints.

Anyways last post about it cause this isnt the place.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

I don't think so, this would only really be the case for pre-2023 Israel. The promotion of Israel today is a very different proposition to the promotion of the UAE.

Is it now?
One of them is in a war, another one is actively involved in about (at least) 9 proxy wars on the African continent.

(Originally I wrote down about 10 paragraphs, deleted them myself since they infringed too much on the political spectrum)

Look, the UCI obviously couldn't care less about trampling human rights because we're organising a WC in Rwanda this year.
They allowed a number of shady countries to sponsor cycling teams before the Israel-Hamas conflict and David Lappartient was/is in talks to open a UCI branch in a forementioned country. Frankly, his personal hobby seems to be launching stage races in countries at the bottom of the human rights watch list.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What one needs to understand is that UCI in 2022 and UCI in collaboration with IOC in 2023 irritated their firm committeemen to peacemaking role and on top of that have set some rules for participation in cycling events under UCI governance:

The UCI adopts a resolution in relation to the Olympic Movement’s position on the subject of sanctions taken against Russia and Belarus

The Management Committee of the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) met on 2 and 3 February in Hoogerheide (Netherlands), on the sidelines of the UCI Cyclo-cross World Championships, which are being held in the North Brabant town from 3 to 5 February.

www.uci.org

Once they have done it this became a boilerplate or better a precedent applicable for resolving any future raised issues too. For example both UCI in 2022 and UCI in collaboration with IOC in 2023 prohibited the use of "identification of these countries". This i guess if the first thing protesters achieved as IPT (partially) complied by removing the team name from the jersey.

So all in all the process of compliance already started and over time lets hope that other outstanding issues to get sorted out too, ideally for the underlying issue to get resolved promptly. UCI with their appointed peacemaker role contributing to it. Without protests AFAIK there where no plans to seek for such compliance.

 

[Brullnux]

Yeah well, I can't really go into it here, but you are missing one very important country where a genocide is happening right now, with more deaths (estimates, not confirmed) than in Gaza.

You're kinda proving my point btw. You say that the UCI is probably fine with it cause they pay some goons to do it for them instead of doing it themselves. Which also just means, they are fine with it because people do not know or care about it.

True, and I apologise for missing out Sudan – but I think the UAE's involvement there is quite similar to their involvement in Ethiopia, which also had incredibly large death tolls.

I am more saying that it's a position which has an internal logic and is coherent. Without getting too international relations about it, international criminal law also ends up differentiating direct involvement to indirect support and 'proxy' style activity, or at least really struggles to find a strong definition for the latter. So I think a world does exist where the UCI is able to sideline Adams without being forced, according to the reasoning behind that move, to sideline UAE. The position of post-2023 Israel is more like post-2022 Russia; UAE is probably more like pre-2022 Russia.

I think yes, fundamentally it is down to what the mainstream cares about, but it is also not unexpected that people care more about direct warfare than proxy wars and indirect support – if only because the latter is so common even among our own governments and so sort of 'normalised'.

And I agree that the actual solution is ending state-promotion in cycling, I just disagree that if the UCI suspends Adams' involvement it would then require the suspension of UAE to be logically or legally consistent (morally consistent is another matter).

 

[hrotha]

Funny how the people saying "why do you care so much about X but not about Y?" never say that because they think you should care more about Y but because they think you should care less about X

 

[Samamba]

Funny how the people saying "why do you care so much about X but not about Y?" never say that because they think you should care more about Y but because they think you should care less about X

No one in here told anyone to care less about something. Literally no one. Just that people shouldn't act morally superior to people who care less or think different when they themselves don't seem to care about other people being killed and that caring a lot for something doesn't mean you have the right to be obstructing other peoples life or even be violent AND get what you want.

 

[theyoungest]

Ah screaming whataboutism to stop a dicussion. Standard. Yes it is, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with some whataboutism if the people who try to stop people everday lives to make a point and often cross the line while doing it act like they are morally superior but seem to only care about deaths in one part of the world.

The word "whataboutism" isn't aimed at ending a discussion. If no protest or no concern is ever valid because something else is just as bad or worse, that's trying to end a discussion. That's what a whataboutism is. And I'm sorry, but it's exactly what you're doing.

Yes, the situation in Sudan is terrible. As is the situation in Congo. Yes, there's suffering everywhere in the world. If you'd like to shine a light on it and make a banner addressing any of these ills or injustices and stand on the side of the road in Spain, you're welcome to. It's not like people are enthusiastically cheering on UAE (the country).

 

[Samamba]

if no protest or no concern is ever valid because something else is just as bad or worse,

I never said this, you're putting words into my mouth, which seems to be an ongoing thing here. Go on with your buzzwords tho.

You're just completely ignoring the fact that a lot of these protest act like they are morally superior and say that everyone should act the same way. Whataboutism is annoying in a lot of discussions, but sometimes it is also just fair. It's given a negative connotation so that people simply can't use it in discussions ever, which is beyond stupid.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Comparing it to other conflicts is a viable argument if the argument is that we're basically morally obliged to be outraged and act out. So the question becomes why this conflict in particular. And I think the underlying reasons are fairly obvious.

The answer to this one is surprisingly straightforward, one has protesters currently to some extent obstructing the peloton and and others do not. Again hence this is about representation.

 

[Red Rick]

It's because nearly all of us dicussing here are in a western country, most of which bear at least some responsibility for Israel's actions due to decades of implicit or direct support and political cover.

Yeah nah that's not the reason. It's far from the only proxy war out there.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I think most cycling fans who support the protests against ipt for sports washing reasons would also support protests against other sports washing, for instance UAE

A lot of these protestors at the vuelta are not cycling fans, and the general public are nowhere near as aware of other issues as they are with the Palestine situation, because is so pertinent on the medias

 

[aphronesis]

Yep.