Race wheel depth advice

[cabmab]

I'm thinking about getting the new 2010 Easton EC90 TT tubular wheelset. They are about 1400g and 90mm deep. Would it be practical to use these wheels in RR's as well as in TT's? And how much of a factor is the weight of the rider?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Not good for road racing, those Eastons you mentioned are TT/Tri specific, to deep for RR. If you're going to do more RR than TT's anyway, go with a more versatile set that's around 60mm deep. Something with better hubs too, those Easton R4 hubs are wack!

Weight of the rider matters less than ability.

Go with EDGE 65's. The hubs alone are reason enough.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I'm thinking about getting the new 2010 Easton EC90 TT tubular wheelset. They are about 1400g and 90mm deep. Would it be practical to use these wheels in RR's as well as in TT's? And how much of a factor is the weight of the rider?

Rider Weight in terms of wheel durability? No such thing as a free lunch. Bigger rider/tough on wheels, light wheelset=reliability issues.

If ya can only have one wheel for TTs and RRs, these will work for oth. There's nothing about deep wheel that disqualifies it as a RR wheelset.

I like Edge and Reynolds, both well built with great hubsets(DT).

 

[nightfend]

The Easton TT's are not the stiffest wheels out there. Under hard sprinting/climbing efforts, you can definitely get the wheels to move around on you. So for that reason, I'd look at another wheelset.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The Easton TT's are not the stiffest wheels out there. Under hard sprinting/climbing efforts, you can definitely get the wheels to move around on you. So for that reason, I'd look at another wheelset.

Exactly. Those Eastons and most other super deep rims are happiest in a straight line under ideal wind conditions. Can't imagine anyone suggesting a 90mm deep wheel set for dual purpose RR/TT, maybe the rear but not the front.

 

[RoadieBeast]

I looked at the EC90TT wheelset a while ago as it was a great price compared to some wheel sets but It is just a bit too deep for road racing! They would be wicked fast though. The Easton R4 hubs are insanely fast but I must agree they chew through bearings pretty fast, and the TT front hub is not quite as stiff as a normal hub however I do have a set of EA90TT alloy wheels that I have used to sprint to victory in A grade level races so they cant be too bendy although I am only 70kg.

I bought some Reynolds SDV66 wheels in the end and have found them to be great so far, they are very stiff and plenty Aero for me. Where I live is not too windy but I do feel myself being blown around slightly even in relatively light wind so I would definitely be cautious buying super deep wheels in a windy region, especially if you are smaller.

 

[karlboss]

I remember an article in these forums somewhere comparing wheels, at 50 kph through a range of wind angles the zipp 808 was fastest, by about 3 watts to a bunch of 58mm rims. 3 Watts, when you are on your own at 50kph...not sure rim depth matters too much. Make of it what you will, I'll post the link when I find it.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The Easton R4 hubs are insanely fast

It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The Easton TT's are not the stiffest wheels out there. Under hard sprinting/climbing efforts, you can definitely get the wheels to move around on you. So for that reason, I'd look at another wheelset.

I agree but the Zipp 808(82mm) is used in lots of road races. A sloppy wheel is a sloppy wheel, whether it be 90mm or 23mm deep. But deepness in of itself does not disqualify a wheel from RRs.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Exactly. Those Eastons and most other super deep rims are happiest in a straight line under ideal wind conditions. Can't imagine anyone suggesting a 90mm deep wheel set for dual purpose RR/TT, maybe the rear but not the front.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/tour-gallery-mark-cavendish/79146

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/tour-gallery-mark-cavendish/79146

Some guys are adopting that 90/60 set up. Haven't tried it yet myself, but can't imagine it makes any difference at club level, other than looking cool. I have yet to see a 90 on the front in a RR though, maybe at the Nature Valley GP last year I did spot one set or two. I could probably handle a 90 front in a crosswind because I'm heavy enough, but I most likely won't even bother. 60mm or so f & r is plenty deep for most, and is a better balance of spoke length vs. rim depth.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Some guys are adopting that 90/60 set up. Haven't tried it yet myself, but can't imagine it makes any difference at club level, other than looking cool. I have yet to see a 90 on the front in a RR though, maybe at the Nature Valley GP last year I did spot one set or two. I could probably handle a 90 front in a crosswind because I'm heavy enough, but I most likely won't even bother. 60mm or so f & r is plenty deep for most, and is a better balance of spoke length vs. rim depth.

The OP was looking for a wheelset to do both RR and TT. Maybe a 60/90 would be a good combo for him, or 60/60. I don't think either would make a huge difference unless it's really windy.

Altho no fan of Zipp, the 808 is actually 82mm...22mm, less than a CM in depth, when compared to the 60.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The OP was looking for a wheelset to do both RR and TT. Maybe a 60/90 would be a good combo for him, or 60/60. I don't think either would make a huge difference unless it's really windy.

Altho no fan of Zipp, the 808 is actually 82mm...22mm, less than a CM in depth, when compared to the 60.

And that's just it. Don't you love it when the OP is posted, then the person who posted this doesn't chime in at all to see what direction they want to go in relation to all the advice we've given. Where just left talking about something that doesn't even matter anymore. This person signed up just to ask for advice, but now nowhere to be found.

Hey Busted, what was your gripe with Zipp rims? You mentioned it before, I think it was pulling nips through the spoke holes or something.. Personally I've never had any problems with Zipp rims, standard or OEM versions from other wheel brands. I've heard from others about minor issues with them ...me, never. Am I just lucky so far?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

And that's just it. Don't you love it when the OP is posted, then the person who posted this doesn't chime in at all to see what direction they want to go in relation to all the advice we've given. Where just left talking about something that doesn't even matter anymore. This person signed up just to ask for advice, but now nowhere to be found.

Hey Busted, what was your gripe with Zipp rims? You mentioned it before, I think it was pulling nips through the spoke holes or something.. Personally I've never had any problems with Zipp rims, standard or OEM versions from other wheel brands. I've heard from others about minor issues with them ...me, never. Am I just lucky so far?

I just pulled an eyelet out of one when building it with sapim spokes(not the spokes fault). A set of custom finished rims made for a gent, brought to me to lace and build(actually 4 wheels). All went fine until the last wheel, about 75% of proper tension(still only a max of 90 kgf according to Zipp), and split went the rim at a nipple.

No fan of their teeny bearing-ed hubs either. I sponsor a pro female triathlete, ahe trained in FLA for 2 weeks(few rainy days), came here and I had to change the bearings on 4 wheels. All were toasted.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of Mavic in this thread. I swear by em.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of Mavic in this thread. I swear by em.

Mavic's street cred took a severe hit this time last year. Remember the R-Sys fiasco?

IMHO they've been on a fairly constant decline since they sold out to Salomon in the mid 90's. Seems when corporate board members and marketing gurus get in the way of common sense, you end up building wheels by committee, the result of which happened to be the biggest recall in the bike industry of 2009.

I would have more respect for Mavic if they went back to square one and built a decent, high mileage, mid range wheel set with standard stainless j-bend spokes. Durable enough to train on everyday, light enough to be race worthy, and without having to apply 50g of decals on the rims to look more ‘cool’. The problem is that Mavic has always stayed away from the standards when it comes to wheels, in turn makes serviceability a real pain in the neck.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Mavic's street cred took a severe hit this time last year. Remember the R-Sys fiasco?

IMHO they've been on a fairly constant decline since they sold out to Salomon in the mid 90's. Seems when corporate board members and marketing gurus get in the way of common sense, you end up building wheels by committee, the result of which happened to be the biggest recall in the bike industry of 2009.

I would have more respect for Mavic if they went back to square one and built a decent, high mileage, mid range wheel set with standard stainless j-bend spokes. Durable enough to train on everyday, light enough to be race worthy, and without having to apply 50g of decals on the rims to look more ‘cool’. The problem is that Mavic has always stayed away from the standards when it comes to wheels, in turn makes serviceability a real pain in the neck.

I knew the R-Sys situation would be mentioned.

I've only been a cyclist for about 5 years now, so I can't really comment on the Salomon deal or the quality before they sold out. I can say that I've loved all the Mavics I've ridden on both road and dirt. I've always found them to be reliable, dependable, and fast. The R-Sys situation hurt them (I have not ridden those wheels), but they sorted it out.

I know what your saying though about the decals and the serviceability. When I was a bike tech it was SRAM and Mavic that gave me the most fits. I would normally try to pass wheel jobs to somebody else. The ironic thing is, my Mavics never gave me trouble. They always stayed true, spokes never broke, etc, etc. Maybe I just had better luck with mine.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I knew the R-Sys situation would be mentioned.

I've only been a cyclist for about 5 years now, so I can't really comment on the Salomon deal or the quality before they sold out. I can say that I've loved all the Mavics I've ridden on both road and dirt. I've always found them to be reliable, dependable, and fast. The R-Sys situation hurt them (I have not ridden those wheels), but they sorted it out.

I know what your saying though about the decals and the serviceability. When I was a bike tech it was SRAM and Mavic that gave me the most fits. I would normally try to pass wheel jobs to somebody else. The ironic thing is, my Mavics never gave me trouble. They always stayed true, spokes never broke, etc, etc. Maybe I just had better luck with mine.

No company is safe from wheels blowing up. HED had some wheel explosions last season too, but not on the scale of what happened to Mavic. I've never had any problems with Zipp rims, but there are builders like Bustedknuckle, whom I know is one of the best, had some bad experiences with them, I've been lucky in that regard. All in all, I think carbon tech in cycling has come a long way, spokes are a different story. Unless you can repair a wheel at your LBS if you have a problem with a spoke, hub, or rim, it just ain't worth it for the general consumer to deal with warranty departments and proprietary parts that are costly and have to wait for. IMHO the best wheels are built with J-bend spokes, the standard. You can find 'em in every bike shop in every corner of the world. Once the standard changes, I'll be all over that.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

No company is safe from wheels blowing up. HED had some wheel explosions last season too, but not on the scale of what happened to Mavic. I've never had any problems with Zipp rims, but there are builders like Bustedknuckle, whom I know is one of the best, had some bad experiences with them, I've been lucky in that regard. All in all, I think carbon tech in cycling has come a long way, spokes are a different story. Unless you can repair a wheel at your LBS if you have a problem with a spoke, hub, or rim, it just ain't worth it for the general consumer to deal with warranty departments and proprietary parts that are costly and have to wait for. IMHO the best wheels are built with J-bend spokes, the standard. You can find 'em in every bike shop in every corner of the world. Once the standard changes, I'll be all over that.

The J-Bend spokes are the standard, but they weaken overtime. I've had, and seen, many rides ruined due to weak and broken J-bends. It was never a problem to have them repaired, but they broke neverthless. That was something that initially attracted to me to my first set of Mavics, the straight pull spokes. So far, no trouble. Hell, the pair on my mountain bike I've only had to true once, and I've ridden them for nearly two years.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The J-Bend spokes are the standard, but they weaken overtime. I've had, and seen, many rides ruined due to weak and broken J-bends. It was never a problem to have them repaired, but they broke neverthless. That was something that initially attracted to me to my first set of Mavics, the straight pull spokes. So far, no trouble. Hell, the pair on my mountain bike I've only had to true once, and I've ridden them for nearly two years.

I have repaired MANY broken spokes on Krysiriums, many.

On a well built wheel, with j bend spokes, with proper tension and the rim is not bent or wacked, spokes don't break. J bend isn't a poor design, poorly designed and built wheels are the problem. If the rim is not deformed and the tension is proper, they don't 'weaken' over time. I have wheels that are daily riders that are years/lotsofmiles old that are aproaching the end of their life due to sidewall thinning but no broken spokes. Gotta be designed and built well tho. No 300 gram rims, with 24 thin spokes, for .1 offa ton riders please.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I hear ya. Many of the broken spokes I've encountered on rides or at the shop have been on lower quality wheels. Often times they were in good shape, but cheaper wheels, nevertheless. In many cases, I suspect the bike's owner trues it themselves, screws something up, breaks a spoke or two on the next ride, and brings it to us saying, "It just snapped." Rarely, have I replaced j-bends for a rider that knew what the heck he is doing.

I have mad respect for wheelbuilders. I can maintain them once built, but building them is way beyond my capabilities.

 

[ihavenolimbs]

I don't think that wheelbuilding is that tricky, it just takes a while if you aint that flash.

I spent most of a Saturday pulling apart a no-name, factory-built, rear wheel, changing a hub, and putting it back together. First time building a wheel ever. And I was very naughty, used all the old spokes, an old hub, and the same dodgy rim.

It used to break a spoke every two weeks, never broken one since (three years ago). I concede that the sample size of my experiment is small, so not very scientific.

Regarding the thread topic, are Easton wheels developed in wind tunnels, like what Zipp and HED do?

I like that HED gives so much data, including for HED, Zipp, and a couple of other wheels.
http://www.hedcycling.com/aerodynamics_technology/
(I realize that this is just marketing until independently verified.)

And the previous version of the EA90TT wheels, the Tempest II, only saves 4 W @ 50 kph (just the front wheel, the rear wheel will be about half this) according to:
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html
(So only about 3 W @ 40 kph, in total?)

My next big purchase will probably be a HED Stinger 4 wheelset. Probably faster than the Eastons, probably less cross-windage too, slightly lighter, and about the same cost.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

I don't think that wheelbuilding is that tricky, it just takes a while if you aint that flash.

I spent most of a Saturday pulling apart a no-name, factory-built, rear wheel, changing a hub, and putting it back together. First time building a wheel ever. And I was very naughty, used all the old spokes, an old hub, and the same dodgy rim.

It used to break a spoke every two weeks, never broken one since (three years ago). I concede that the sample size of my experiment is small, so not very scientific.

Regarding the thread topic, are Easton wheels developed in wind tunnels, like what Zipp and HED do?

I like that HED gives so much data, including for HED, Zipp, and a couple of other wheels.
http://www.hedcycling.com/aerodynamics_technology/
(I realize that this is just marketing until independently verified.)

And the previous version of the EA90TT wheels, the Tempest II, only saves 4 W @ 50 kph (just the front wheel, the rear wheel will be about half this) according to:
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html
(So only about 3 W @ 40 kph, in total?)

My next big purchase will probably be a HED Stinger 4 wheelset. Probably faster than the Eastons, probably less cross-windage too, slightly lighter, and about the same cost.

My difficulty stems from how tedious it is. Not my style. I love working on bikes, but I'm always looking for someone else to do the wheel work.



This thread has got me interested in new wheels. I'm looking around and the HED Bastogne has caught my eye. I'm not a serious road racer, so I don't need anything aero. Besides, I've always been drawn more to traditional wheels. The Bastogne are a tad lighter than the Ksyrium SL (less expensive too), and I like the Stallion build option. I'm only 155 lbs, but I fancy myself a sprinter, so the stiffer wheels would be nice when I do race. Any feedback from personal experience or otherwise?

 

[richwagmn]

My difficulty stems from how tedious it is. Not my style. I love working on bikes, but I'm always looking for someone else to do the wheel work.



This thread has got me interested in new wheels. I'm looking around and the HED Bastogne has caught my eye. I'm not a serious road racer, so I don't need anything aero. Besides, I've always been drawn more to traditional wheels. The Bastogne are a tad lighter than the Ksyrium SL (less expensive too), and I like the Stallion build option. I'm only 155 lbs, but I fancy myself a sprinter, so the stiffer wheels would be nice when I do race. Any feedback from personal experience or otherwise?

Thinking of the same wheels. I haven't read anything bad about the new HED c2s. Since outside riding doesn't start for another 3 months, I've got some time yet.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Are those wheels fairly new? I've always gone straight for Mavic and not very familiar with HED.