Races Should Be Much Harder

[BroDeal]

Laurent Fignon (quote stolen from an article on Podium Cafe):

"There is one key rule which we should all follow when discussing cycling today: prudence. Apart from the doping issue which, as everyone knows, has unfortunately caused changes in the last fifteen years by altering the most basic physical values, it can be said that cycling has still progressed in every area. The roads are better, so too the kit, so is race preparation. So the standard of the average professional cyclist has risen markedly.

"The problem is that while all this has been going on, there hasn't been much change in the races themselves. A race like Liège-Bastogne-Liège was a fearsome, highly selective race in my day but is now just a race like any other. It's ordinary, for one reason at least: the hills are spaced too far apart. It's not suited to today's cyclists. In the same way, is it right for Flèche Wallonne to come down to a sprint up the Mur du Huy? What that means is simple: the courses of the races are not suited to cycling today."

The Giro is certainly headed in the right direction.

 

[Fester]

Yes, I agree. But cyclists nowadays are spoilt brats, that need a soothing voice in their ear piece.

I would love some proper racing that sorts the hard men from the boys. Plus I want it clean.

 

[Parrulo]

wow i am with this 100%

 

[maltiv]

Indeed. And completely flat stages should be an exception, not the rule. I don't have a problem with sprinters being allowed to win once in a while but when a stage is completely flat it is so incredibly boring and predictable. The sprinters should have to work for their win and if they don't like to actually have to do some effort before the sprint, well, then they can go back to the track...

 

[BroDeal]

Indeed. And completely flat stages should be an exception, not the rule. I don't have a problem with sprinters being allowed to win once in a while but when a stage is completely flat it is so incredibly boring and predictable. The sprinters should have to work for their win and if they don't like to actually have to do some effort before the sprint, well, then they can go back to the track...

True dat. Back in the day, Sean Kelly had a great sprint. But he was also a hard mofo who could get himself over all sorts of terrain. He even won the Vuelta one year. Now we have useless prats like Cav who have to be escorted by his whole team to the end of a dead flat stage.

 

[Luis Ocaña]

Nice, an 'everything used to be better back then'-topic. Cycling is what is right now.

 

[131313]

True dat. Back in the day, Sean Kelly had a great sprint. But he was also a hard mofo who could get himself over all sorts of terrain. He even won the Vuelta one year.

Yeah, he's quite a role model.

Now we have useless prats like Cav who have to be escorted by his whole team to the end of a dead flat stage.

wow, your complete lack of understanding of the sport is downright baffling. If you have the sport that much, and have that little knowledge of it, why follow it at all?

 

[BroDeal]

wow, your complete lack of understanding of the sport is downright baffling. If you have the sport that much, and have that little knowledge of it, why follow it at all?

I don't like Cavendouche, and I don't like the types of races that he can win.

 

[131313]

Nice, an 'everything used to be better back then'-topic. Cycling is what is right now.

Old people are really fond of talking about how hard things were back in their day. They seem to forget there's still plenty of video out there showing them competing in what were often bicycle tours.

I mean, look how LBL comes down to a field sprint these days, with these big groups of 30 guys finishing together:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/96th-liege-bastogne-liege-his/results

As opposed to 20-some years ago:

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-l...sults-men-s2-c0-b0-g22-t44-u57-m46504-v1.html

Rose-colors glasses tinted with the obfuscation of time.

 

[131313]

I don't like Cavendouche, and I don't like the types of races that he can win.

You don't like San Remo? I've heard it's not exactly flat.

 

[flicker]

I don't like Cavendouche, and I don't like the types of races that he can win.

What you need to express, is that you do not like sprint wins in classics and in the stage races.. Sprint finishes are due to certain race contours and race dynamics.
Thank you for sharing that you don't like Cavandish. He is the best sprinter in the world. Read his book, you will see how he does it. There is a lot more to it then Phil and Paul have explained to you.
They are speaking to the novice fans.

 

[131313]

is it right for Flèche Wallonne to come down to a sprint up the Mur du Huy? What that means is simple: the courses of the races are not suited to cycling today."[/i]

Ahh, the good old days of F-W:

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-f...lts-men-s2-c0-b0-g22-t1363-u34-m46644-v1.html

20 years ago, it looks like a field sprint up the Mur.

"I'm sad the race doesn't go down exactly as it did the year I won it" would have been a more accurate quote.

 

[BroDeal]

You don't like San Remo? I've heard it's not exactly flat.

Nope. Worst monument ever.

The fact that Cav could win it says it all really.

 

[BroDeal]

"I'm sad the race doesn't go down exactly as it did the year I won it" would have been a more accurate quote.

So you are denying that changes in equipment, training, road surfaces, and doping has changed the nature of racing and that once difficult race courses are not easier because of the changes?

 

[hrotha]

So you are denying that changes in equipment, training, road surfaces, and doping has changed the nature of racing and that once difficult race courses are not easier because of the changes?

The same could be said about the late 70s-early 80s compared to the 30s. Where does it stop?

 

[BroDeal]

The same could be said about the late 70s-early 80s compared to the 30s. Where does it stop?

Indeed. Where does it stop? Should it stop after Vaughters and The Hog's World Unrestricted Top Fuel Racing Tour (presented by Amgen) has innovated 36 inch suspension bikes and Paris-Roubaix ends in a field sprint?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Yes, I agree. But cyclists nowadays are spoilt brats, that need a soothing voice in their ear piece.

I would love some proper racing that sorts the hard men from the boys. Plus I want it clean.

this.

that's why I'm indeed happy with the giro. Still the courses are still very hard but on hard courses the riders are too afraid to make a serious race or selection. it's something wrong with rider mentality and teamboss mentality that's why the earpieces have to go. they have become calculative drones for their teammangers in the teamcars.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Indeed. And completely flat stages should be an exception, not the rule. I don't have a problem with sprinters being allowed to win once in a while but when a stage is completely flat it is so incredibly boring and predictable. The sprinters should have to work for their win and if they don't like to actually have to do some effort before the sprint, well, then they can go back to the track...

complete flat stages are ok but then do it as they do in brazil, make them 50 km long so it bcomes extreme racing from begin till finish.

 

[131313]

So you are denying that changes in equipment, training, road surfaces, and doping has changed the nature of racing and that once difficult race courses are not easier because of the changes?

Not necessarily. I'm saying the differences are GREATLY overstated, and a simple look at the historical results shows that to be the case.

But rather than look at the actual results of actual races, some old timers will cherry pick one year, or more often than that just remember things incorrectly. The results don't lie. Sometimes the races split up more than other times. LBL 2010 was just as selective as it was 20 years before, and much MORE selective that it was in 1950:

http://www.les-sports.info/cyclisme...s-hommes-s2-c0-b0-g22-t44-u115-m46533-v1.html

So what I'm saying is that this "longing for the good old days" is nonsense if you actually look at the cold, hard facts.

I'm also saying that these "flat, easy" races are much, much harder than you realize.

 

[BroDeal]

Not necessarily. I'm saying the differences are GREATLY overstated, and a simple look at the historical results shows that to be the case.

But rather than look at the actual results of actual races, some old timers will cherry pick one year, or more often than that just remember things incorrectly. The results don't lie. Sometimes the races split up more than other times. LBL 2010 was just as selective as it was 20 years before, and much MORE selective that it was in 1950:

http://www.les-sports.info/cyclisme...s-hommes-s2-c0-b0-g22-t44-u115-m46533-v1.html

So what I'm saying is that this "longing for the good old days" is nonsense if you actually look at the cold, hard facts.

I'm also saying that these "flat, easy" races are much, much harder than you realize.

It looks like you are the one doing the cherry picking. Maybe it's just me, but I have more faith in the words of Fignon than those of a U.S. domestic pro or cat 1 or whatever you are.

I don't really care how "hard" flat races are for the pros. All I care about is if it is interesting to watch. Ten stages of the TdF that are processions to 3 km of sprint action is not interesting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There are two ways to spice up flat stages (besides making them mountain stages, Dutch-style road-furniture obstacle course or relying on the vagaries of the wind):

1) as in Brazil, make the stages much, much shorter; this gives the break more hope because they don't have as far to go and are thus fresher - and if it IS really boring at least it's over sooner;
2) as in Milan-Sanremo, make the stages much, much longer; this brings endurance into play and means that even the slightest rise can be an obstacle that prevents the simple sprint. In a 160km race, Poggio di Sanremo would maybe drop Kenny van Hummel and Danilo Napolitano if it was lucky. In a 290km race, it destroys people.

 

[Luis Ocaña]

this.

that's why I'm indeed happy with the giro. Still the courses are still very hard but on hard courses the riders are too afraid to make a serious race or selection. it's something wrong with rider mentality and teamboss mentality that's why the earpieces have to go. they have become calculative drones for their teammangers in the teamcars.

The mentality in general in most sports have changed, due to commercialization of the society. Same in cycling. Any possible move is overanalysed and calculated more than ever, because there is so much glory, prestige, money etc. involved. Nevertheless, I think we should be really happy cycling hasn't evolved the way football for example has. Cycling is still 'ours'.

 

[131313]

It looks like you are the one doing the cherry picking. Maybe it's just me, but I have more faith in the words of Fignon than those of a U.S. domestic pro or cat 1 or whatever you are.

Don't take my word for it, go through all of the results. They're certainly easy to navigate on that site. Some years it's close, other years it's not.

You can choose to put your faith into him over me, but you'd be better off to actually research his claim for yourself. You may not like the answer, though because it won't fit your narrative.

A 3 week grand tour is always going to have boring flat stages. That's how it's been pretty much since grand tours have existed. Expecting people to race super-selective courses every day for 3 weeks is a bit, well, ridiculous. It will even be more of a contest of who has the best doctor than it is currently.

Fignon's comments were directed at the classics, though, and his comments were misguided.

San Remo is a magnificent race. It's a shame your dislike for the public persona of Cav blinds you that fact, and you don't see the beauty in it. You're really missing out.

 

[hfer07]

Laurent Fignon (quote stolen from an article on Podium Cafe):

"There is one key rule which we should all follow when discussing cycling today: prudence. Apart from the doping issue which, as everyone knows, has unfortunately caused changes in the last fifteen years by altering the most basic physical values, it can be said that cycling has still progressed in every area. The roads are better, so too the kit, so is race preparation. So the standard of the average professional cyclist has risen markedly.

"The problem is that while all this has been going on, there hasn't been much change in the races themselves. A race like Liège-Bastogne-Liège was a fearsome, highly selective race in my day but is now just a race like any other. It's ordinary, for one reason at least: the hills are spaced too far apart. It's not suited to today's cyclists. In the same way, is it right for Flèche Wallonne to come down to a sprint up the Mur du Huy? What that means is simple: the courses of the races are not suited to cycling today."

The Giro is certainly headed in the right direction.

..And the entire world loved it--and Zomegnan knows that a hard & challenging race increases its prestige--- Basso can be proud to say he's won probably the hardest Giro in the last 2 decades--can anybody else claim to have won "the hardest TDF", when the parcous barely calls for 4 MTF the most? the Giro has 8 this year alone & legs are going to hurt big time.

I also agree entirely with some serious revisions on "some" classics.

 

[Parrulo]

..And the entire world loved it--and Zomegnan knows that a hard & challenging race increases its prestige--- Basso can be proud to say he's won probably the hardest Giro in the last 2 decades--can anybody else claim to have won "the hardest TDF", when the parcous barely calls for 4 MTF the most? the Giro has 8 this year alone & legs are going to hurt big time.

I also agree entirely with some serious revisions on "some" classics.

my thoughts exactly.

just make milan san remo 350k

the other classics 300k and put all the bergs all the pave sectors and all the hills in there.

for the GT's just have them go giro style. and the tour can even have cobbles every year