Races Should Be Much Harder

[Astana1]

Knowing the mentality of current day riders and teams, a 400k classic would amount to 300k of soft pedaling and a 100k of racing. Or something like that.

 

[sublimit]

I dont have a problem with Martin winning P-N. A great tester, hangs on on the climbs but does a great domestique job in the meantime
I'd like to see what he could do at Paris-Roubaix if he had a free role instead of dragging his teammates along the whole time.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Sorry, but I didn't really enjoy 'all-round' Tony Martin winning PN, as entertaining as his attacking was.

It was a disappointing end to the race I grant you.

However, Martin was not only in the elite group on the toughest climbing day, but was largely responsible for it staying away. He utterly deserved his lead up to that point, one of the best climbers, the best descender and the best TTer.

The fact that no-one else attacked him after the TT wasn't his fault and had nothing to do with his TTing ability.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The fact that no-one else attacked him after the TT was partially the fault of course design and partially other teams wanting to hold rank; all of the riders who would feasibly be able to put any pressure on Martin were too far down. The route wasn't really balanced enough for my liking. There needed to be a tougher mountain stage (or at least some kind of uphill finish) in order to balance out the extensive TT kms; not even necessarily a major one like Montagne de la Lure in 2009; that could have been good though as it's the kind of climb Martin can do well at, and he was clearly in good form, but as an MTF the guys like Sánchez and Tondó could have thought about clawing a minute back (and guys like Wiggins may have felt the hurt too).

As to guys who can't TT sucking and shouldn't be able to win a GT, well, pray tell who recently has won a GT but can't TT? Contador is excellent against the clock, Menchov very good - he won the Giro in the toughest ITT of recent times - and the likes of Nibali and Valverde are good against the clock too. Even di Luca and Sastre are reasonable. We haven't exactly seen total scrubs against the clock like Pozzovivo winning GTs, have we?

There should not be an emaciation of GT TTs so that riders who can climb well but are predominantly ITT gainers (eg Leipheimer and Martin) are totally out of the reckoning. But there should, conversely, be enough climbing so that they really have to work for it if they want to hold on. If super-skinny climbers who are only mediocre against the clock like Pozzovivo and Rujano shouldn't be able to win GTs, then neither should heavyweight TTers like Wiggins and Cancellara.

Basso is at one end of the spectrum of people who SHOULD be able to compete for TTs. Martin is at the other.

 

[Mambo95]

Going back to Fignon's comments:

When he won his first Tour in 1983, in the field there was one Australian, one American, no Germans and no Eastern Europeans. In 2010, these nations had 58 riders.

In the 1983 Tour, the top four nations, France, Belgium, Holland and Switzerland provided 74% of the riders, in 2010 it was 35%. (There were just 6 Italians (all on one team) and 10 Spaniards (also on one team)).

Basically, since his day, the talent pool has got a whole lot deeper - that's been a bigger impact than bike technology or road surfaces.

 

[veganrob]

What I hate is the "same time" BS. Put a timing chip on them all and let them race for every second.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What I hate is the "same time" BS. Put a timing chip on them all and let them race for every second.

I also like this. they do this in brazil and put up even with thousands of a second so you have to finish in front of peloton because 15 places can mean 1 second it's crazy! but perhaps not for every race, maybe something like paris nice or tirreno which is usually seconds race

 

[Mambo95]

What I hate is the "same time" BS. Put a timing chip on them all and let them race for every second.

Yeah because 100+ riders all sprinting for the line at the same time can't possibly cause any problems, can it?

 

[veganrob]

Yeah because 100+ riders all sprinting for the line at the same time can't possibly cause any problems, can it?

They will just have to get in better position. They won't all be sprinting anyway. I'm sure they have good bike handling skills.

 

[veganrob]

It would make racing more interesting also. It will encourage contenders to attempt more breakaways rather than sucking each others wheel for 150k. It makes lots of riders to watch out for.

 

[woodie]

They will just have to get in better position. They won't all be sprinting anyway. I'm sure they have good bike handling skills.

The whole reason they introduced the same time thing was because there were crahses on the flat stages. I think the same time thing is needed for most flat stage but anything that finishes on a hill, yeah make them fight for every second, even bring back bonus seconds so they don't gift stages.

Unfortunately safety has to come first (I hope)

 

[veganrob]

Mod. I opened up another thread on timing chips

 

[Boeing]

Harder Races = No Doping then right Fignon?

RIP BTW

 

[c&cfan]

Harder Races = No Doping then right Fignon?

RIP BTW

it never existed. even when they died while eating mentos.

 

[benpounder]

Going back to Fignon's comments:

[...]

Basically, since his day, the talent pool has got a whole lot deeper - that's been a bigger impact than bike technology or road surfaces.

For those yearning for yester-year, and who think tweaking the rules here and there, eg banning race radio, will bring back those "glory days", get real. Everything other than the start and finish line has changed since then; some major, some minor, and very few insignificant.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Not only in modern days.
People who cannot TT suck and shouldn't win a GT.
Besides that, many good TTers can also climb and are therefore candidates for a GT win, and then can be deserved winners.

If you want to win a GT you have to know how to TT. Thats how things work in cycling and thats how it has worked nearly always except 2011 of course.
But I see the big TT-revenge coming in 2012 as a sign of sorry.
Something like Giro09 TT was great. Anyone who didn't enjoy it and didn't talk about it for weeks ?
And this is great. TT is for the real men. 100km even more.
If you can't TT you are officially not a rider that can be considered as allrounder or candidate for GT Podium.

I have no problem with TTrs winning, I just really dislike the way they win GTs.
Sorry but hanging on in the mountains, not attacking, and then regaining your loses on a tt bike is not entertaining cycling.

Thus I feel the need for harder longer stages, and not more TTs.

 

[Archibald]

10 Spaniards (also on one team)

pardon?
ten on one team in the 2010 tour? nine per team innit?


actually, you've got most of Caisse, all of the Bleeding Carrots and AC's posse at Astana, which alone should be more than 10 Spaniards...

 

[Mambo95]

pardon?
ten on one team in the 2010 tour? nine per team innit?


actually, you've got most of Caisse, all of the Bleeding Carrots and AC's posse at Astana, which alone should be more than 10 Spaniards...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. That bit referred to 1983, not 2010.

 

[Archibald]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. That bit referred to 1983, not 2010.

my bad, I read this "in 2010 it was 35%. (There were just 6 Italians (all on one team) and 10 Spaniards (also on one team))." to mean you were referring to 2010 having low numbers of italians and spaniards - kinda skimmed over the first part as referring to (western) europeans in general...
that'll teach me to take a quick peek at threads while at work!

I still stand by my nit-picking of 10 in the team though

 

[R.0.t.O]

I have no problem with TTrs winning, I just really dislike the way they win GTs.
Sorry but hanging on in the mountains, not attacking, and then regaining your loses on a tt bike is not entertaining cycling.

Thus I feel the need for harder longer stages, and not more TTs.

Harder longer stages is all very well, but the racing will still be boring if we just see a train going up every climb then a little burst of action to get to the front at the final climb, then some attacking for the last 5km. Think of 2009 TdF, total snooze-fest except for the Grand Bornand stage - and the reason we got the major action there was because the Schlecks and Contador realised that Wiggins was too close for comfort with a timetrial still to come. Once Wiggins was out of touch for the win then we went back to the dull stuff on the Ventoux stage. If you want the big star climbers to attack and take risks they need to have some reason to do it.

 

[Mambo95]

I still stand by my nit-picking of 10 in the team though

They really did have 10 in a team in 1983. Here's the startlist: http://memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf_1978_2005/tdf1983.php#Les partants

It dropped to 9 in 1987.

 

[Astana1]

Harder longer stages is all very well, but the racing will still be boring if we just see a train going up every climb then a little burst of action to get to the front at the final climb, then some attacking for the last 5km. Think of 2009 TdF, total snooze-fest except for the Grand Bornand stage - and the reason we got the major action there was because the Schlecks and Contador realised that Wiggins was too close for comfort with a timetrial still to come. Once Wiggins was out of touch for the win then we went back to the dull stuff on the Ventoux stage. If you want the big star climbers to attack and take risks they need to have some reason to do it.

Great point. Although I can't prove it, I suspect Astana spent much of that Tour soft pedaling it (comparatively speaking) to keep Lance in it as long as possible. Given that Astana was controlling the pace, that drove the pace of the overall competition. And that was why Contador went off on his own agenda and hit the gas on a couple of stages, that team wasn't riding for him. Even still I think Contador probably used only 80% of his capacity on that Tour.

 

[Archibald]

They really did have 10 in a team in 1983. Here's the startlist: http://memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf_1978_2005/tdf1983.php#Les partants

It dropped to 9 in 1987.

it really just isn't my day...

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Harder longer stages is all very well, but the racing will still be boring if we just see a train going up every climb then a little burst of action to get to the front at the final climb, then some attacking for the last 5km. Think of 2009 TdF, total snooze-fest except for the Grand Bornand stage - and the reason we got the major action there was because the Schlecks and Contador realised that Wiggins was too close for comfort with a timetrial still to come. Once Wiggins was out of touch for the win then we went back to the dull stuff on the Ventoux stage. If you want the big star climbers to attack and take risks they need to have some reason to do it.

umm the 09 course was ridiculous easy-tt friendly. Thus we saw wiggo so high. Exactly why I dislike easy courses, seeing wiggo 'hang on' and almost claim the podium spot was almost unbearable.

Harder stages always almost always results in bigger splits and entertaining racing; zoncolan. TT driven course are the snooze fest. Your example 09, is my example for this.

 

[R.0.t.O]

umm the 09 course was ridiculous easy-tt friendly. Thus we saw wiggo so high. Exactly why I dislike easy courses, seeing wiggo 'hang on' and almost claim the podium spot was almost unbearable.

Except it wasn't actually tt-friendly by any standards. An extended prologue, a fairly short TTT, and a moderate length but hilly ITT. And seven mountain stages, including 3 MTFs; that's more mountains than 2010, 2008, 2007... and then I got fed up of checking. Look up 1993 if you want to see a tt-friendly Tour de France. You can say the climbs were too far from the end on some stages in 09, but if the climbers had started those stages with a 2 or 3 minute deficit on a Wiggins or Martin maybe they would have had to actually get on with things.

Harder stages always almost always results in bigger splits and entertaining racing; zoncolan. TT driven course are the snooze fest. Your example 09, is my example for this.

Well, that's the Giro. If you move the Zoncolan or Mortirolo so they start in Briancon then you'd force everyone to race full gas in the Tour. But the Tour isn't like that - you can have the toughest stages available in France: Galibier, Croix-de-Fer, Alpe d'Huez like in 08, and if they decide to roll along behind Cancellara and O'Grady for hours on end then that's what they'll do.