Radios - Safety or Control of your riders?

[clausdollerup]

Hi All,

I'm new here, so maybe there has been a thread on this before, so excuse me if it repeats something in here. But i have just finished reading Bjarne Riis's book "RIIS" and was at the same time following the protests by the riders in Tour of Qatar about the radio issue and it struck me that all are talking about safety of the riders, when to me the main reason is that the directors wants control over their riders all the time.

In Riis's book, he refer so many times to "then i told so and so over the radio to attack or do this or that"......and only once in the whole book, does he slightly refer to safety when he mention that he tells their second car in the tour that Jens Voigt had crashed on a decent and someone needed to stay with him. The rest of the book, all the reference is about him directing his riders and controlling what they need to do.

I use to cycle a lot and rode from when i was 8 years old till i was 20 years old. I wrote for the Danish national team as a junior in the early 90's, so i took my sport very seriously. And i must admit, i miss the to see the big races where riders are rewarded for being clever and intelligent instead of just listening to what the director tells them to do. Where the escapes make it home in the big tour's because the peloton are not constantly being told how many minutes or seconds they are behind.

I know that teams are paying their riders, often a lot of money and therefore what to make sure they expose their sponsors as much as possible with wins etc, but personally i miss the proper racing. And as for safety, i think, excuse my choice of words, a load of B*llocks! Riders have managed for many years without radio's and relied on their own instincts and skills on the bike to avoid crashes etc.

I guess my points i'm trying to say is that i believe the radios are not for the riders safety, but for the directors to control everything......what are your thoughts??

 

[ingsve]

The primary use of the radios are not to warn the riders of safety hazards and it's also not to direct them like robots. Both of those things are minimal uses.

Most of the traffic on the radios is about boring routine stuff like telling the car that someone is on the way back to pick something up or informing that so and so has a puncture so the mechanic can get ready quickly etc.

What all of that does it make things run smoother so that random events like crashes and punctures doesn't determine who wins or loses but instead ensures that the riders legs determine the winner.

By completely banning radios you take away a practise that is completely benign in order to remove the 5% of the radio use that is seen as controlling.

I instead advocate for simply banning outgoing radios in the team cars. In essence that is the problem that people seem to have with it, If you remove the ability of the DS to "radio control" their riders at will from the car but still leave the mundain but very useful normal use mentioned above then I think everyone could be happy with a solution to that. If you also add a neutral radio that warns about hazards then perhaps the safety concerned people would also be satisfied.

 

[la.margna]

And as for safety, i think, excuse my choice of words, a load of B*llocks! Riders have managed for many years without radio's and relied on their own instincts and skills on the bike to avoid crashes etc.

Most of the traffic on the radios is about boring routine stuff like telling the car that someone is on the way back to pick something up or informing that so and so has a puncture so the mechanic can get ready quickly etc.

What all of that does it make things run smoother so that random events like crashes and punctures doesn't determine who wins or loses but instead ensures that the riders legs determine the winner.

I instead advocate for simply banning outgoing radios in the team cars.

If you also add a neutral radio that warns about hazards then perhaps the safety concerned people would also be satisfied.

Couldn't agree more with both quotes. The problem is that then we also need regular and surprise tech-checks and supervision in order that no team finds a way to cheat and relay radio messages to the riders ;-)

Maybe just the official safety/warning radio and an emergency button for the rider (maybe combined with GPS positioning)?

 

[El Imbatido]

The primary use of the radios are not to warn the riders of safety hazards and it's also not to direct them like robots. Both of those things are minimal uses.

Most of the traffic on the radios is about boring routine stuff like telling the car that someone is on the way back to pick something up or informing that so and so has a puncture so the mechanic can get ready quickly etc.

What all of that does it make things run smoother so that random events like crashes and punctures doesn't determine who wins or loses but instead ensures that the riders legs determine the winner.

By completely banning radios you take away a practise that is completely benign in order to remove the 5% of the radio use that is seen as controlling.

I instead advocate for simply banning outgoing radios in the team cars. In essence that is the problem that people seem to have with it, If you remove the ability of the DS to "radio control" their riders at will from the car but still leave the mundain but very useful normal use mentioned above then I think everyone could be happy with a solution to that. If you also add a neutral radio that warns about hazards then perhaps the safety concerned people would also be satisfied.

I agree with what ingsve says. I know it has been mentioned and talked about before but i do like the idea of a neutral radio and it is something that should be discussed by the UCI and the AIGwhatever it is called (the riders union). Another possible idea that i don't think has been discussed on here is the idea of only allowing a certain amount of radios per team ie. 3 or 2 or something like that. So then a team will have to choose who should have the radios each day. Ie on a flat day do they go to the leadout men? On a mountainous day do they go to the gc man and a top mountain goat? Does one go to the bottle fetcher? It could make for a bit more strategic racing (what if everyone on your team who has a radio has been shelled out the back of the peloton?) whilst still allowing some radios to help with "safety".

Feel free to pick apart my idea......i just had too much time on my hands this arvo

 

[clausdollerup]

I like the idea ingsve suggests as this way this way the directors can't control things. I guess in order to not having the system abused, you will have to monitor what is being said. I think that's what happening in F1??

I just like that the races should be won by the team or individual that is best on the road that day, and not just have the best director etc. But where the leader of the team makes the calls and get someone to pick up water now and not in ten minutes because that's what the director is telling them.

There is also the issue that on, especially mountain stages in the big tour's that some riders get dropped on the way up, but the always know that they are so long after and because of this might be able to limit their loss on the top, so they can get back on the way down to help their leader......if they don't have this info, they will have to "feel" the race and maybe go faster then otherwise and thus make it back up on the way down and not be of as much help because they had to go beyond their limit on the way up.....it would just be nice to give more responsibility back to the riders.

And i would just wish that the riders and directors are honest in their arguments when they say why they need radio's. Maybe i have not been following it close enough, but to me the "safety!" issue seem to be the only valid reason they have??

 

[Fester]

Radios add nothing to safety. In fact, if you count the number of crashes due to people fidgeting with radios versus those of an unwarned danger they are probably higher. Remember that riders risk what they want and the organisation usually points out dangers effectively with a yellow flag and whistle.

Unfortunately director sportives tend to be control freaks, when they are far far from the road, leading to poor decisions and turning a tactical cycle race into a drag race. They also have their favourites never giving some riders a chance, preferring to loose a race than have one of the lackeys win.

I cannot understand why any rider wants the ear piece unless they are insecure in their decision making. Or are favoured by the team.

 

[ingsve]

Radios add nothing to safety. In fact, if you count the number of crashes due to people fidgeting with radios versus those of an unwarned danger they are probably higher. Remember that riders risk what they want and the organisation usually points out dangers effectively with a yellow flag and whistle.

Unfortunately director sportives tend to be control freaks, when they are far far from the road, leading to poor decisions and turning a tactical cycle race into a drag race. They also have their favourites never giving some riders a chance, preferring to loose a race than have one of the lackeys win.

I cannot understand why any rider wants the ear piece unless they are insecure in their decision making. Or are favoured by the team.

Well, from what we hear the reality is not so much the safety with regard to hazards in front of them but rather without radios what has been observed is that it gets a lot more chaotic in the caravan behind the riders simply because there are more riders that have to pop back to the car and when they do it's not as smooth so the traffic around the cars makes it less safe.

 

[Kerbdog]

Im all for getting rid of radios full stop. Safety my rear end, it didnt do much for Pedro Horillo did it or Frank Schleck when he was oh so lucky in the Tour de Suisse in 2008. Its as simple as this, they did fine without them years ago & they should be fine now too. I cannot imagine a more sickening image than that of all these punks turning up to the start line in Mallorca recently with the radios in their ears with stumped looks on their faces when the officials asked & reminded them that they were not to be used. If they could all have that sort of unity when it comes to plunging needles in their arms & preventing that going forward now that would be admirable.
Race radios?? Dont make me laugh. Just want a bit of retro with my cycling please.

 

[Fester]

Well, from what we hear the reality is not so much the safety with regard to hazards in front of them but rather without radios what has been observed is that it gets a lot more chaotic in the caravan behind the riders simply because there are more riders that have to pop back to the car and when they do it's not as smooth so the traffic around the cars makes it less safe.

The caravan is controlled by the race director in the lead car. The chaos would then be his responsibility to manage.

It's probably a question of practise.

A good way of reducing visits to the car is to have a "road captain" i.e. a lead rider to make decisions.

Collecting water is the same as always.

This is just the team managers and their prima donnas crying over relinquishing control.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

i instead advocate for simply banning outgoing radios in the team cars. In essence that is the problem that people seem to have with it, if you remove the ability of the ds to "radio control" their riders at will from the car but still leave the mundain but very useful normal use mentioned above then i think everyone could be happy with a solution to that. If you also add a neutral radio that warns about hazards then perhaps the safety concerned people would also be satisfied.

great idea!

 

[Met de Versnelling]

Im all for getting rid of radios full stop. Safety my rear end, it didnt do much for Pedro Horillo did it or Frank Schleck when he was oh so lucky in the Tour de Suisse in 2008. <snip>

Race Radio's saved Horillo's life in all probability, there was a article on the main pages about it some point in the last fortnight.

(Edit: found it; http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/race-radios-saved-horrillos-life-rabobank-teammate-claims )

Schleck's was obvious, he was ahead of the pack with moto riders around him, not hard to see.

Crashing on descent's are a fact of life, i don't think when your flying into a hair-pin at 70+kph your DS is going to be on there saying hard left ahead, they'd have to be absolutely stupid to talk to you when you're having to concentrate that hard.

 

[Angliru]

Im all for getting rid of radios full stop. Safety my rear end, it didnt do much for Pedro Horillo did it or Frank Schleck when he was oh so lucky in the Tour de Suisse in 2008. Its as simple as this, they did fine without them years ago & they should be fine now too. I cannot imagine a more sickening image than that of all these punks turning up to the start line in Mallorca recently with the radios in their ears with stumped looks on their faces when the officials asked & reminded them that they were not to be used. If they could all have that sort of unity when it comes to plunging needles in their arms & preventing that going forward now that would be admirable.
Race radios?? Dont make me laugh. Just want a bit of retro with my cycling please.

If I'm not mistaken, another rider came upon Horillo's bike on the side of the rode and notified his team car who in turn notified the race officials/emergency medical workers. In this case, the presence of race radios actually saved his life. Personally I'm for a limited ban on race radio's as mentioned earlier with one-way communication between the team cars and the riders and a link with race officials for notifying riders of dangerous occurences on the road.

 

[Master50]

So in 5 or 10 years we will see. I just don't see how the radios get the blame for the evolution of current tactics? What ever a DS is yelling in thier ear was covered in the team meeting before the race but of course racing is dynamic.
The current break away then chase and catch tactics are very good tactics for sprinter teams. Early chaos until break is formed. peloton rolls along monitoring the breaks progress and in the peloton every one goes about their routine. Get bottles position for the wind and terrain, conserve energy then work hard for the shortest duration possible to get the sprinter into place.
Teams are just getting better at it.
Take the investment a team makes but the return is now in the hands of chance more than it was. IE the risks have increased so the return is less probable. Not good for the owner to seek sponsorship. A DS's job is to win but we want to take an important tool from him so we can have our unpredictability back. A pro is a tool toward that victory. It is his JOB not anything else. Love it or hate it but pro sports is about the money not the purity of winning for the bragging rights. Take the radios from the amateurs, the U 23 and juniors since they might be the only ones racing for these old fashioned reasons.
There is the management of the race too. No the race director does not control the caravan. It is the chief official and removing the radio is just another thing that has to get done from that car with all of his management focused on the tail of the peloton I think will have less attention to give on positioning his resources to monitor the race.
So many of the things I read about tv's in the car of the teams and robot cyclists are just not true. Maybe at world calendar races there are live TV feeds but I have never been to a race where we had a live TV feed. Most of the filming that might go to the cars is unedited, without any commentary or sub titles. Phil and Paul add their commentary from a production booth at the finish or start line and the live broadcast is at least 5 to 10 minutes old when it gets to the car.
I don't see where the people making these decisions are getting their facts but I have never sat in a debate at a UCI meeting either. I hear old guys wax romantically of the days of Anquetil or Coppi but not many of those guys have sat in the commissaires cars for a lot of years. They sit in VIP cars and can hardly even see the race from there let alone determine the truth of this story.
So if the style of racing does not change where then will the pundits look for excitement? Go back to individual racing? throw tacks on the road to get a good panic and chase? What if it stays the same? What if it changes and the changes are unwelcome? Stop trying to orchestrate a sport event by screwing with the tolls a team uses to achieve their goals.
I say leave the radios alone.

 

[cyclingPRpro]

Fester, you have absolutely no idea what happens on the inside of a pro team or race.

Master50 has it nailed. Radio help to make the inner-workings run more smoothly, and yes safer. And by safe I mean by notifying the car of issues with riders ahead, prepping the wrench on mech issues and feeding. Sure, there are tactical conversations but are certainly not the main reason they are used.

 

[ksmith]

Fester, you have absolutely no idea what happens on the inside of a pro team or race.

Master50 has it nailed. Radio help to make the inner-workings run more smoothly, and yes safer. And by safe I mean by notifying the car of issues with riders ahead, prepping the wrench on mech issues and feeding. Sure, there are tactical conversations but are certainly not the main reason they are used.

So they wont be using them on ITT then

 

[cyclingPRpro]

Radios are also an effecient way to gauge a rider's current mental state... They'll be used until no longer allowed. However. Current thinking is that the UCI has already decided to back off this particular issue. We'll see. We're hopeful that's true.

 

[ksmith]

Radios are also an effecient way to gauge a rider's current mental state... They'll be used until no longer allowed. However. Current thinking is that the UCI has already decided to back off this particular issue. We'll see. We're hopeful that's true.

Meaning the D.S. is doing the thinking. Mental fatigue goes up when you are tired, you make decisions slower, some you can not make. It is another selection process in finding the top riders which is sadly lacking now.

 

[clausdollerup]

Meaning the D.S. is doing the thinking. Mental fatigue goes up when you are tired, you make decisions slower, some you can not make. It is another selection process in finding the top riders which is sadly lacking now.

I can only agree. Again i quote from Bjarne Riis's book that he was seeing that Contador looked tired and marked on the 1st mountain stage in TDF 2010 and he was screaming at Andy to attack, but Andy made the choice not to attack. And as Riis is saying, that looking back (i know that is always easy to do!) Andy could maybe have won the tour if he had attacked with 5-7km to go instead of just a few k's.....that shows what happens when a rider makes his own decision and not listening to the DS. But my point is that clearly, the strategy points of the race, the DS makes a big difference.....so maybe they shouldn't be able to use them the last 20-30km's?

And i don't really think that the radio's make things so much easier or safer to get the day to day stuff organised....they managed without them in the past and they will today. I just want to see racing and not robotics in action....get the real leaders to make their decision on the route when they are tired and need to have a plan B because the plan discussed in the morning has gone down the drain....what do the leader want to do then? Will they attack or chase or be defensive? Again i will quote from Riis's book. I think it was stage 9 in the TDF 2010 that Voigt was in an early attack as planned in the mornings meeting, and then by the time Andy attacks later in the stage, Voigt is called back to help Andy out. Without a radio, Voigt would have had to make that decision himself and if he did it too early, maybe there would not have been an attack yet and too late and he would be of little help.....so to me, it just shows that in the crucial moments, the DS makes way too much difference when able to use the radios to control their riders!

Anyway, no matter what i say, it won't make a difference. With the amount of different views here in this forum, just imagine what there is amongst the riders who are not in a unity, the DS's who wants them and the UCI who don't....personally i like the idea of a ban on radios!

 

[bicing]

I have been told to say race radios are a good thing because they make things safer.

 

[Suedehead]

So in 5 or 10 years we will see. I just don't see how the radios get the blame for the evolution of current tactics? What ever a DS is yelling in thier ear was covered in the team meeting before the race but of course racing is dynamic.
The current break away then chase and catch tactics are very good tactics for sprinter teams. Etc...

I couldn't disagree more.
The sponsors paid a lot so should we let the richest team win by default, the tour a big crit just for show?
40 % of the riders are old farts who know nothing?
Mechanicals, bottles and raincapes are part of the game. Thats what the domestics are for, not just letting little group hang up ahead before the final chase. A few fewer to do the chasing is a good thing.
The safety argument is the only valid one I can see.

 

[DAOTEC]

also this isn't going away

.
CPA: [http://biciciclismo.com/CPA-demands-major-consultation]
.

 

[clausdollerup]

.
CPA: [http://biciciclismo.com/CPA-demands-major-consultation]
.

I just read the article in the link. Sounds like there are some spindoctors at play here......so now cycling become like politics!!.....

And this quote strikes me as odd: The President of the CPA Gianni Bugno joins the claim of the competitors, adding that before each race he will ask the race teams to deliver to the UCI commissioners, a statement with which they and the UCI will be both civil and criminal liable if any damage or injury would result from not using the earphones, instrument of prevention and safety in the race.

How can anyone prove that someone crashed because they didn't have their radio?? That's one of the worst arguments i have heard so far!.....so now Frank Schelck would be able to sue the TDF for his crash last year!....i mean where do you draw the line!

 

[Kerbdog]

Race Radio's saved Horillo's life in all probability, there was a article on the main pages about it some point in the last fortnight.

(Edit: found it; http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/race-radios-saved-horrillos-life-rabobank-teammate-claims )

Schleck's was obvious, he was ahead of the pack with moto riders around him, not hard to see.

Crashing on descent's are a fact of life, i don't think when your flying into a hair-pin at 70+kph your DS is going to be on there saying hard left ahead, they'd have to be absolutely stupid to talk to you when you're having to concentrate that hard.

Thats fair enough, maybe i should have been clearer in my initial post (this happens me a lot!!). Basically my gist is that they didnt prevent the actual crashes in the first place but i suppose crashes are just out of the blue scenarios. I just want it to be like the old days. Dont think im gonna have my cake & eat it though.

 

[ksmith]

I just read the article in the link. Sounds like there are some spindoctors at play here......so now cycling become like politics!!.....

And this quote strikes me as odd: The President of the CPA Gianni Bugno joins the claim of the competitors, adding that before each race he will ask the race teams to deliver to the UCI commissioners, a statement with which they and the UCI will be both civil and criminal liable if any damage or injury would result from not using the earphones, instrument of prevention and safety in the race.

How can anyone prove that someone crashed because they didn't have their radio?? That's one of the worst arguments i have heard so far!.....so now Frank Schelck would be able to sue the TDF for his crash last year!....i mean where do you draw the line!

It becomes better when the radios don't work because of bad weather,or they just dont work for some other reason, are the teams liable then?
Do we have a rider come to the front to stop the racing "cause my radio is broken" wah wah?
If they do crash with radios are the D.S. (teams) liable? Can the rider/organiser sue them?
I wonder if Mr Bugno has thought it through?

 

[Kerbdog]

It becomes better when the radios don't work because of bad weather,or they just dont work for some other reason, are the teams liable then?
Do we have a rider come to the front to stop the racing "cause my radio is broken" wah wah?
If they do crash with radios are the D.S. (teams) liable? Can the rider/organiser sue them?
I wonder if Mr Bugno has thought it through?

If the weather is bad its ok cos Cancellara will tell them all to stop racing & let them know whats going on.