Radios - Safety or Control of your riders?

[washedup]

Race Radios

The race radio arguements are really starting to annoy me. Rather than take one side or the other (though as a former rider, I would prefer to not have them), I would like to hear what people think of "my solution".

Let them take UCI standard issue radios. These radios have up to date road conditions in the common language of choice (say french, english, spanish, italian). Each team pays a bit into the costs, but in general would save by not needing to have so many heads in the mix.

There would also be less 'telephone' effect since the news would go more directly to the riders. I can't remember how many times I heard the left side of the round-a-bout was closed... while exiting the intersection.

Safe? Yes, I think so. Still pure racing, hell ya.

 

[ingsve]

The race radio arguements are really starting to annoy me. Rather than take one side or the other (though as a former rider, I would prefer to not have them), I would like to hear what people think of "my solution".

Let them take UCI standard issue radios. These radios have up to date road conditions in the common language of choice (say french, english, spanish, italian). Each team pays a bit into the costs, but in general would save by not needing to have so many heads in the mix.

There would also be less 'telephone' effect since the news would go more directly to the riders. I can't remember how many times I heard the left side of the round-a-bout was closed... while exiting the intersection.

Safe? Yes, I think so. Still pure racing, hell ya.

I still think it's counter productive to remove the ability of riders to directly send messages TO the team car. There is no "radio control" aspect involved in that communication and it does make things behind the peloton move more efficiently by giving the car a heads up that someone has punctured, crashed, needs a mechanical etc.

 

[Dimtick]

I saw a story that teams are considering using text messages to riders as a way to get around the radio ban. My first reaction is that this is just some ****ed off managers blowing smoke but what if it's true? from a safety standpoint this seems like the worst thing in the world. Imagine a rider going down a real technical desent and then he has to take his eyes off the road to read a text message. Theres so much vibration that it's probably hard for him to read so it takes him longer......not hard to imagine a worse case scenerio of a rider going over the edge.
I also have to think that teams would only be able to use this loophole for this season only before UCI bans that as well (as they should).

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7598/Could-SMS-messages-be-a-way-around-the-radio-ban.aspx

by the way....I like the idea of the riders having "official" 1-way radios that could give warning about accidents, round abouts, road conditions, etc. don't even need to give them to every riders. just give a few to each team and let them figure out who gets one. Could have multiple channels. Different language on each channel so I rider could pick what they wanted. Channel 1 for English, channel 2 for French, etc..although I don't think the French would like coming in second even on radio channels.......

 

[VinoKash]

I still think it's counter productive to remove the ability of riders to directly send messages TO the team car. There is no "radio control" aspect involved in that communication and it does make things behind the peloton move more efficiently by giving the car a heads up that someone has punctured, crashed, needs a mechanical etc.

Hm, and at every stage will see the the same as it is last 6-8 years.
If you care bout safety then make one-way "Comissars radio" why not.
I dont want to see anymore trains that are used speed to caught that they got from sportif, cycling is not chess everyone should have an chance.

 

[ingsve]

Hm, and at every stage will see the the same as it is last 6-8 years.
If you care bout safety then make one-way "Comissars radio" why not.
I dont want to see anymore trains that are used speed to caught that they got from sportif, cycling is not chess everyone should have an chance.

You obviously didn't understand the post that you quoted. I talked about the riders being able to talk TO the car and not the other way around.

 

[B_Ugli]

Another angle......

Having seen the inside of a team car they typically have mobile telephones, radios, t.v's and laptops on the go while the Director Sportif is (trying to concentrate on) driving the car. Correct me if I am wrong but in the UK at least its illegal to even use a telephone without a handsfree kit - I would guess its the similar in the rest of Europe. My argument is that with all these distractions going on in the team car they are not paying attention to the road and could easily hit a spectator, other race vehicle, motorcyclist or rider. The same could be said of riding along with an earpiece in on a public road which probably isnt legal either.

For me driving team cars without due care and attention negates the "alleged" safety benefits for the riders and the result should be - radio ban. In view off all the other techy stuff in a team car I wonder if the UCI should go a step further and ban all driver distractions all together save for race radio.

 

[VinoKash]

You obviously didn't understand the post that you quoted. I talked about the riders being able to talk TO the car and not the other way around.

Its neednt. The main reason of radio (in safety case) is to say something like:"After the curve someone parked his car like an jackass be carefull!".
Mechanical problems and crashes are just part of cycling you neednt radio to message about that, sportif will see you and will help. So I think that "comissars one way radio" is only way of radiousing.

 

[Dimtick]

Another angle......

Having seen the inside of a team car they typically have mobile telephones, radios, t.v's and laptops on the go while the Director Sportif is (trying to concentrate on) driving the car. Correct me if I am wrong but in the UK at least its illegal to even use a telephone without a handsfree kit - I would guess its the similar in the rest of Europe. My argument is that with all these distractions going on in the team car they are not paying attention to the road and could easily hit a spectator, other race vehicle, motorcyclist or rider. The same could be said of riding along with an earpiece in on a public road which probably isnt legal either.

For me driving team cars without due care and attention negates the "alleged" safety benefits for the riders and the result should be - radio ban. In view off all the other techy stuff in a team car I wonder if the UCI should go a step further and ban all driver distractions all together save for race radio.

correct me if I'm wrong but I don't ever remember an incident of a team car getting in an accident because of radio's. Yes, there have been incidents of a spectator being hit but that's always been becuase the spectactor is a drunken idiot that tries to run with the bikes and ends up tripping over his Superman cape and deer antlers.....

 

[Master50]

There are lots of ways to limit the way radios work. You can give the riders a frequency that is only heard in their teams car and give the DS's radios that can be heard by everyone. So riders get some privacy and quick access to the team car but the DS says everything on open frequency so other teams can hear what comes from the team car. Then a rider would know the manager wants him to go to the car for a talk and still maintain the safety feature. This would preserve the advantages of the radio and limit how much tactical information a DS would broadcast. I suppose it would get like baseball. We could hear the DS call a red 7 but not know what a red 7 is?

There are far too many people adding their 2 cents without any clue about what is going on in a caravan or a pro race. Anyone that thinks that safety is not one very important use of radios is a good example of clueless. I find it unbelievable how many people think riders are remote controlled. About the only races where radios are still allowed are the ones where tv is available to a DS. All the events that are now prohibited from radio use generally are delayed in the information getting to the ds. Lots of times the black board is the only tactical information a rider gets and often it is a rider telling the DS what the gaps are.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

There are lots of ways to limit the way radios work. You can give the riders a frequency that is only heard in their teams car and give the DS's radios that can be heard by everyone. So riders get some privacy and quick access to the team car but the DS says everything on open frequency so other teams can hear what comes from the team car. Then a rider would know the manager wants him to go to the car for a talk and still maintain the safety feature.

Cue the conveniently crafted coded messages.

"Andy, the crafty cow flies over the moon in may!"

 

[hoolaparara]

Cue the conveniently crafted coded messages.

"Andy, the crafty cow flies over the moon in may!"

Actually I was thinking if radios aren't banned it must be made like Formula 1 where the electronic communication is unecrypted and must be publically available to anyone (so no phones allowed).

Everybody can hear everything.

 

[ingsve]

Its neednt. The main reason of radio (in safety case) is to say something like:"After the curve someone parked his car like an jackass be carefull!".
Mechanical problems and crashes are just part of cycling you neednt radio to message about that, sportif will see you and will help. So I think that "comissars one way radio" is only way of radiousing.

Well, it's not strictly needed but being able to tell the car about a mechanical or crash etc makes things less random and that makes the race more fair so that a random event doesn't decide the race.

 

[valentius borealis]

If I'm not mistaken, another rider came upon Horillo's bike on the side of the rode and notified his team car who in turn notified the race officials/emergency medical workers. In this case, the presence of race radios actually saved his life.

There was a similar situation when Jelle Vanendert crashed in the 2008 Dauphiné Libéré.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vanenderts-operation-ends-season

 

[Roland Rat]

Whinging Jens Fockt has posted an open letter on the Cyclesportmag website. Basically "days of Anquetil, Journos should have laptops taken away, Andy Schleck will lose". I think the latter is the whole reason behind his opinion.

 

[peloton]

Whinging Jens Fockt has posted an open letter on the Cyclesportmag website. Basically "days of Anquetil, Journos should have laptops taken away, Andy Schleck will lose". I think the latter is the whole reason behind his opinion.

He makes some good points about safety though, must admit.

Here's the letter
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/an-open-letter-from-jens-voigt/

 

[pedaling squares]

Voigt makes some good points about stage race design, and I like the idea of open communication as a possible measure instead of no communication. But I disagree with some of his points. His crash had nothing to do with radios and in a radio-free race moto support could certainly have warned the riders/cars behind about the downed rider. Same with the U23 race with the car - moto support should have been able to stop all riders until the threat was gone. If that ruins a breakaway well too bad, desperate times call for desperate measures. As for Schleck's puncture, does a pro tour team really need their DS to tell them how to protect their top rider?

 

[Dimtick]

I keep thinking about the cobble stage of last years TDF, i think it was stage 3. People were crashing left & right. The peleton was dessimated, there was dust everywhere and the riders and team cars were all mixed together. In that instance i don't think a 1-way official radio would have helped because I doubt the officials had any idea what was going on. It seems like in that instance a 2-way radio is the best way and the UCI should allow 2 way radios on stages like that, where there are very difficult road conditions and a very high probability of a lot of crash's and rider injuries.

 

[woodie]

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/an-open-letter-from-jens-voigt/

I think he makes some great points about making it more interesting.

Finally, to the race organizers that agree to ban the radios – what are you talking about? Do I tell you to not use your mobile phone during the stage? No, I don’t. So what gives you the right to ask me to drop my communication? But if you are interested in more dramatic cycling, I’ve got some ideas: drop the silly, long stages, don’t let us suffer three or four days in the high mountains and don’t give us a week of boring, super long, flat stages. Why not consider some circuit stages: the fans will see us more often, it’s easier and cheaper for the tv crews and it’s safe to ride without radios.

He also makes the same suggestion about having the open communication like Formula one that has been made on here.

By pedaling squares
Same with the U23 race with the car - moto support should have been able to stop all riders until the threat was gone. If that ruins a breakaway well too bad, desperate times call for desperate measures.

How many U23 races have moto support? I know none of the ones me or my mates have raced in have had any. Race organisation probably should have been better yes, but if there were radios to send out a warning message then maybe the riders would have been able to avoid it as they would have been aware of the danger.

 

[ingsve]

With regards to the length of stages then one aspect is of course that they need the distance to get from one place willing to host a start to another place willing to host a finish and that is perhaps not always easy to find since the towns have to provide money to get that honor. Though sometimes it feels like they're simply making the stages long just to go through more town so that they can get more cash into the race.

 

[Yeahright]

Agree with Jens 100%. Typical of the old boys network to ignore the wishes of the majority of the riders and teams. Listening to McQuaid reminds me of the movie; Dumb and Dumber.

 

[Benedict XVI]

Circuits in TdF? Doesn't it kill the basic idea of Tour de France - which is litterally "touring around France"? That's why there are boring long stages there - it's a tradition. Let's NOT reduce Tour de France to a bunch of criteriums in different towns - we'll end up putting riders on cycling trainers and aerobikes and deciding their placing by getting their speed/distance/power from the machine.

 

[Dimtick]

i really liked the Jens article. I didn't realize that with the big races there is already an official radio channel where the race director communicates with the team cars who then relays the messages to their riders. It would seem to be an rather simple matter for the riders to listen to the official channel. That would seem to address all the valid points that Jens makes about rider safety and security.

As far as the circuits go, personally I really like the idea. They already do this with the final stage thru Paris so why not also do it with other stages?

 

[Cipodog]

There's no doubt about it---the Directors want the radios mainly to control the riders---there maybe a little truth in that they are of some use in the case of an accident, but this is a "red herring" Anyone would think riders were crashing & dying every week--thats not so--since the bike was invented riders have fallen off them--its the nature of the machine. If anyone has any doubt about how much input the DS has in how his riders race then look for a copy of a film shot in Bryneel's car when he was DS of US postal (or it could be Discovery) when they were riding the 3 Days Du Panne in the early 2000's--It was non-stop talking (screaming) in the riders ears--what was round the next turn, when & who had to move up, when to change gear, who had to take Lance up etc. etc.----If the use of radios is not to do with controlling the way the race is played out I say --let them have them--but confiscate all TV's out of the cars--the DS can then hear the call about accidents (on the race radio) but will not be able to see what direction the race is taking & therefore will not be able direct his riders to "let that break go"---or "close that down"----OK I know it would be impracticle to implement but it would solve the problem!!

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Agree with Jens 100%. Typical of the old boys network to ignore the wishes of the majority of the riders and teams. Listening to McQuaid reminds me of the movie; Dumb and Dumber.

I've been riding the fence on the radio ban subject, but when Jens speaks I listen. Here's the sequel article that appeared in CN and his quote:
Jens Voigt speaks out against UCI race radio ban

“If I had a fatal crash, who of you, who think the radio ban is a great idea, will go to Berlin and explain to my six children that it was the right decision and daddy was just an unlucky victim in the so important battle for more drama in cycling?” he said.

Now, the pros have adopted the use of helmets against their will for the sake of safety. So now when any of them speaks out for radios in the interest of safety, why not let them have radios? I don't consider this position expressed by Jens hypocrisy. Instead I think the safety culture in cycling has changed and they have come around to this way of thinking.

Let them use radios.

 

[socalvelo]

I just read Voigt's open letter and it is FANTASTIC.

First of all, journalists FAILED in any measure of objective reporting on the topic and I agree with Voigt that they favored the ban.

His logic about safety is reason enough, and I have not heard a rebuttal from the opposing camp.

The other reasons he cites are both humorous and true!
I would LOVE to see an 'internet & cell phone ban" for journalists! Let's go old school with typewriters and telegrams!!

His idea to open race radio to the public is BRILLIANT. That is one thing that adds to auto racing, as he said.
If they had done that already, I think the fans would be outraged at a radio ban.

The last section of Jens Voigt's letter, which is just great:
But if you interested in more dramatic cycling i got some ideas: drop the silly, long stages, don’t let us suffer three or four days in the high mountains and don’t give us a week of boring, super long, flat stages. Why not consider some circuit stages: the fans will see us more often, it’s easier and cheaper for the tv crews and it’s safe to ride without radios.

Why don’t we agree on opening the communication available for everyone, like in Formula 1? That will attract people and the sport would prove to be modern and global. Everybody who is in the cycling world - fans, organizers, sponsors, riders, UCI and media - will agree that we face some more serious problems in the moment. So, let’s talk and find a way out of this homemade problem.

one instance Voigt didn't mention (but I read on CN) was the rider that reported Pedro Horillo's horrific crash off the mountain.
He radio'ed the location, and basically due to the radio, saved Horillo's life with rapid response. Without the radio, he would not have been found for quite some time.