Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SHAD0W93]

Every time when I ride my cargo bike uphill I get the complete opposite feeling you have. I don't think he actually uses a motor, but I always seem to accelerate similar to him.

Maybe it’s from what Peterfin described, since at least compared to the e bike I rode Pogacar didn’t have any accelerations like that.

 

[Cookster15]

Maybe it’s from what Peterfin described, since at least compared to the e bike I rode Pogacar didn’t have any accelerations like that.

I don't think Pogacar is using a motor. But if he was it would be more like 40 watts than say the 250 to 500 watts that commercially sold e bikes make.

 

[HashRouge]

After riding an e bike for the first time I think the theory of Pogacar using a motor has even less credibility. Definitely on something high tech and maybe that crazy cocktail helped with his heat resistance. UAE also doesn’t seem to get bans if I recall vs like Visma with their issue a year and half or so ago.

I genuinely think the improvement in heat resistance might be down to his own hard work. I know that's controversial to say in the Clinic, but I've seen quite a few comments online about people who've come across him training in very hot weather all layered up and dressed in black. I think we have a tendency to say everything is doping, but I think sometimes we need to consider other factors too.

 

[SorelyBoy]

After riding an e bike for the first time I think the theory of Pogacar using a motor has even less credibility. Definitely on something high tech and maybe that crazy cocktail helped with his heat resistance. UAE also doesn’t seem to get bans if I recall vs like Visma with their issue a year and half or so ago.

Oh he’s on a brilliant programme, no doubt. However, the margin of superiority over a never more competitive and professional field does require a different theory and understanding of what is actually happening. I therefore lean towards thinking there’s something going on with the bike judging by the growing weight of supporting evidence we’re seeing during races. The crazy seated and sustained accelerations in Alpine stages which don’t seem to involve a corresponding increase in body torque. The severe uphill short anaerobic accelerations in certain classic races, again seated, and which leave competitors to their square peddling. The savage and sustained attacks from up to 100km out. The weird and unpredictable one day dips in performances, followed by immediate return to form the next day. Such performance dips occur during time trial stages more often than not. I think that’s significant. I could go on about his general unparalleled consistency without having off days, or periods of illness. I think motorised assistance could facilitate effort management, lessening the attritional impact on the body that Pogacar appears not to suffer from so much. When we then also consider what was being achieved by e bike technology up to 20years ago, the constant rumours in the peloton, and the fact that UAE brought bike design in-house, plus the record of its team director, then it’s more than reasonable to be concerned.

 

[Rob5091]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ording-to-tudor-nutrition-expert-tim-podlogar

(Worth a look at the original article in Slovenian https://siol.net/sportal/kolesarstv...o-katera-od-ekip-kaj-taksnega-ponovila-676625 )

“This year, what stuck with me most was the domination of Tadej Pogacar. I find it exceptional that he is capable of winning such different types of races – from stage races to the most demanding one-day Classics. His physiology seems completely unimaginable to me. It is incredible how he can maintain such high numbers, such a strong rhythm, for so long, and still not arrive at the finish totally exhausted,” says Dr Tim Podlogar, lecturer and head of the Centre for Sports Physiology and Exercise Testing at the University of Exeter, speaking to Slovenian outlet Siol. “It would be excellent if we could study Tadej’s physiology in the laboratory, for example with muscle biopsies, and find out how his muscles function,” he adds – fully aware that there is little chance of that while Pogacar is still rewriting the record books.

(With a nod to the reference of Ljubljana Sports Therapy scene -

Dr. Tim Podlogar is a graduate of kinesiology at the Ljubljana Faculty of Sport, exercise physiologist and nutritionist with a PhD from the University of Birmingham in the UK, researching sports nutrition and metabolism. Under the mentorship of Dr. Gareth Wallis, he received his MSc (2016) and PhD (2020) in Carbohydrate Metabolism. After completing his doctorate, he did postdoctoral work for a year at the Jožef Stefan Institute in Slovenia, where he researched ketone bodies and menthol supplements in extreme environments under the mentorship of Dr. Tadej Debevec. Around the same time, he became an assistant professor of exercise physiology at the University of Primorska. At the end of 2021, he returned to the University of Birmingham as a researcher, where he collaborated with Dr. Wallis on a project that investigated the effect of heat acclimatization on the rate of oxidation of exogenous carbohydrates. Following the completion of this project in September 2024, he joined the University of Exeter as Lecturer and Head of the Centre for Sports Physiology and Exercise Testing. He worked as a nutritionist with the Red Bull BORA-hansgrohe cycling team for three years, and this season he works as a consultant to nutritionists and occasionally coaches in the Tudor team.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar was noted for seated attacks since 2021. He won the 2021 TdF with a seated attack. So seated attacks don't indicate anything about his jump in 2024. He got spanked in the Tour two years running and did some homework.

Lack of illness is a new one - but Armstrong never got sick during his 7 tour "wins" either. But if Pogacar's doctors have worked out how to stop him getting sick then I think there is a global medical science community who might also like to know that secret?

Again I ask, who is this maestro sports scientist employed at UAE because it most definitely isn't Mauro Gianetti?

 

[Salvarani]

Pogacar was noted for seated attacks since 2021. He won the 2021 TdF with a seated attack. So seated attacks don't indicate anything about his jump in 2024. He got spanked in the Tour two years running and did some homework.

Lack of illness is a new one - but Armstrong never got sick during his 7 tour "wins" either. But if Pogacar's doctors have worked out how to stop him getting sick then I think there is a global medical science community who might also like to know that secret?

Again I ask, who is this maestro sports scientist employed at UAE because it most definitely isn't Mauro Gianetti?

He was sick in 2023, I believe. At least one year he had a mouth sore. Usually happens when immune systems is down.

He was sick this year as well, no?

I believe most riders are coughing and have light fevers towards the end of any GT, anyway. Most dont make a big deal out of it. Three weeks of traveling and racing in hot/cold weather will do that naturally. Meeting and being around so many people. Hotels and whatnot.

I dont think that is something to really point at as something groundbreaking.

Key is managing and mindset. People underestimate the power of this quality in many aspects.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ording-to-tudor-nutrition-expert-tim-podlogar

(Worth a look at the original article in Slovenian https://siol.net/sportal/kolesarstv...o-katera-od-ekip-kaj-taksnega-ponovila-676625 )


(With a nod to the reference of Ljubana Sports Therapy scene -

So dr Podlogar implies his compatriot is an x-man. He even wants to put him in a lab and do some tests.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Guy,who won pogi challenge can do 6,3 for 40. And he is 40 years old. Picture pogacar in cyclocross at 35,its gonna get ugly.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Literally better talent than lance armstrong,pantani or big mig.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Guy,who won pogi challenge can do 6,3 for 40. And he is 40 years old. Picture pogacar in cyclocross at 35,its gonna get ugly.

Most hill-climbing events that 40 yo guy does (and likely training as well) are focused on Z5 or Z4 efforts so he's a specialist. Plus it's likely that Pogacar will be way more "spent" at the age of 35 (because of a huge load of intense races and pressure in his career) and won't want to do races anymore.

 

[Red Rick]

Andrew Feather doing 6.3 for 40 is more like Contador doing 458 W for 19:59 in a pre Tour test.

Not exactly replicable in racing conditions.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Andrew Feather doing 6.3 for 40 is more like Contador doing 458 W for 19:59 in a pre Tour test.

Not exactly replicable in racing conditions.

He's a specialist at stand-alone efforts of short or medium duration. Big engine (VO2max) but likely would need a lot of base training to be competitive in normal races.

 

[BubbaChuck]

''Andrew, like Pogi, is an immense talent. It's almost laughable to see how little training you do compared to the amateurs who were over four minutes behind him in the Pogi Challenge. His training volume is probably about half of what others do, who have trainers, an actual diet plan, and a strict routine, while Andrew can just jump into McDonald's and train without any plan.'' Dont show this to Remco.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

''Andrew, like Pogi, is an immense talent. It's almost laughable to see how little training you do compared to the amateurs who were over four minutes behind him in the Pogi Challenge. His training volume is probably about half of what others do, who have trainers, an actual diet plan, and a strict routine, while Andrew can just jump into McDonald's and train without any plan.'' Dont show this to Remco.

Considering that law is his profession, his training volume is likely considerably lower than in case of typical pros. I also tend to think that Z4/Z5 intensity is a bigger percentage of his training than in case of pros (who do a looot of Z2). He's surely a talent, that can't be denied.

 

[meat puppet]

Whatdoyaknow, a pogi paper focused on his performance-implied vo2max. Not a high profile journal, but it's probably a piece that fans and critics can cite for their preferred purposes, ha.

Tour de Physiology: The Exceptional Power Outputs and V̇O₂ of Climbing in the Tour de France | Journal of Science and Cycling

www.jsc-journal.com

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Whatdoyaknow, a pogi paper focused on his performance-implied vo2max. Not a high profile journal, but it's probably a piece that fans and critics can cite for their preferred purposes, ha.

Tour de Physiology: The Exceptional Power Outputs and V̇O₂ of Climbing in the Tour de France | Journal of Science and Cycling

www.jsc-journal.com

It's nice to have an article on it but it's not surprising: everybody knew that a monster VO2max is needed to sustain 6.8 w/kg for 40 minutes (one year ago we already suspected high 90s or maybe 100). What's more interesting is how this capacity is actually achieved!

 

[Cookster15]

It's nice to have an article on it but it's not surprising: everybody knew that a monster VO2max is needed to sustain 6.8 w/kg for 40 minutes (one year ago we already suspected high 90s or maybe 100). What's more interesting is how this capacity is actually achieved!

Hasn’t Pog gone over 7 watts /kg since last year? Maybe for shorter duration?

But yes the days everyone said Vingegaard was better on long hard climbs seems over.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Hasn’t Pog gone over 7 watts /kg since last year? Maybe for shorter duration?

But yes the days everyone said Vingegaard was better on long hard climbs seems over.

PDBF was like 6.8-6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes. Obviously Pogacar can do 7 w/kg for 20-30 minutes. Power curve gets flatter below the threshold and steeper above. Their calculations base on assumptions regarding VO2max and sustained VO2 relation: it's only an approximation but VO2max in upper 90s isn't surprising at all: it doesn't mean it's his natural value though (obviously blood doping boosts VO2max first of all, threshold power boost is a consequence of it but this requires more training to follow VO2max boost).

 

[Cookster15]

This story says more:

New Data Analysis Confirms Pogačar as a Physiological GOAT

A record VO2 Max and insane power: Tour de France calculations shed fresh light on Pogačar's dominance and the wild progression of modern performance.

velo.outsideonline.com

The 7w/kg barrier won’t stay upright too much longer.

 

[meat puppet]

It's nice to have an article on it but it's not surprising: everybody knew that a monster VO2max is needed to sustain 6.8 w/kg for 40 minutes (one year ago we already suspected high 90s or maybe 100). What's more interesting is how this capacity is actually achieved!

My guess is that it's all about the porridge. Thinking of switching from musli myself.

Yes, it's not surprising at all. The paper just goes to show that the rather simple back of the envelope scribbles that many here did in 2024, myself included, are ballpark-accurate once w/kg is known and reasonable assumptions about efficiency and fractional utilization are used. And those ranges you get from ex phys literature directly.

 

[Extinction]

This story says more:

New Data Analysis Confirms Pogačar as a Physiological GOAT

A record VO2 Max and insane power: Tour de France calculations shed fresh light on Pogačar's dominance and the wild progression of modern performance.

velo.outsideonline.com

So why doesn't Pogacar just take a V02 max test, like Lemond and others have done, and publish the result? If indeed he has a high 90s score, then everyone will say, yep, that's why we can't beat him. On the other hand, if his score is much lower? It would mean a type of doping of exceptional quality.

 

[Cookster15]

So why doesn't Pogacar just take a V02 max test, like Lemond and others have done, and publish the result? If indeed he has a high 90s score, then everyone will say, yep, that's why we can't beat him. On the other hand, if his score is much lower? It would mean a type of doping of exceptional quality.

I assume blood doping boosts VO2 max - so no way would Pogacar’s score be lower. So publishing any such test would increase suspicion. Not going to happen.

To get more power you need more oxygen. Oxygen is transported from the lungs to the muscles in haemoglobin. Haemoglobin is a marker tracked in the biological passport compared the rider’s baseline (another subject).

Substances risk detection either directly - including retrospective, or indirectly via the biological passport. Autologous blood doping much more difficult to lasso as was obvious when it took 8 years to catch Cobo. Lawyers part of the problem.

Someone in Vingegaard’s camp back around 2023 claimed he had a high 90s VO2 max (maybe his dad I can’t recall). In 2009 Lemond claimed Contador’s VO2 max would need to be nearly 100 when he won at Verbier. So what would Pogacar’s score be to do performances like 2024 PdB or 2025 Hautacam?

Frightening stuff. But from from I read and know I can’t see how undetectable substances are responsible. You don’t get a boost unless more oxygen is delivered via the bloodstream (haemoglobin). The biological passport should detect that not the substance which created the elevated haemoglobin. So I think if ‘a type of doping of exceptional quality’ is going on it is still only possible to be certain of avoiding detection with some kind of UCI or WADA/ITA collusion.

 

[aphronesis]

All of that is true. There’s still the claim for doses that burn out by testing (and the other irregularities also?). Tacit agreements on possible action between teams and governing bodies seem still the most direct, but there must be other discrete factors.

On a trivial note, Bruyneel has been floating his possession of evidence around the credibility of LeMond’s claimed VO2max. (Not that I care for either of them.)

This is a little old, but the Covid era candidness may make it a little more current

“But wada’s numbers reflect only those who get caught. David Howman, once wada’s chief operating officer, says he thinks the real figure in elite sports might be more than one in ten—which would imply that over 90% of dopers were getting away with it. By and large, he says, only the “dopey dopers” get caught…

Most new drugs, though, are created by the pharmaceutical industry. Selective androgen receptor modulators (sarms) are experimental drugs intended to provide similar benefits to aas, but with fewer side-effects. Researchers hope they will help treat muscle-wasting diseases. But sarms have attracted sporting interest too. Oliver Catlin runs the Banned Substances Control Group, an American firm which tests sports supplements for forbidden drugs. He points out that although more than a dozen sarms are in development, tests exist for only a few of them, and only at the most advanced laboratories.“

Sport is still rife with doping

Between 10% and 40% of athletes in Tokyo might be cheating

www.economist.com

I think I raised this a little while ago: the issue of a niche market shift toward the development of substances that dissolve more quickly.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So why doesn't Pogacar just take a V02 max test, like Lemond and others have done, and publish the result? If indeed he has a high 90s score, then everyone will say, yep, that's why we can't beat him. On the other hand, if his score is much lower? It would mean a type of doping of exceptional quality.

Your point doesn't make that much sense. It's obvious that Pogacar has a monstrous VO2max (there's no other way to produce 1900 of VAM for 40 minutes) but it tells you nothing about how exactly this VO2max has been achieved. VO2max can be significantly improved by blood doping: according to some studies 10-15 minutes efforts (near max. aerobic capacity) are improved the most due to blood boost.

If for example he sniffs CO most of the year (like @Red Rick suggested) then he can have VO2max in upper 90s almost all the time. Then it's not a temporary boost for his body but almost the norm: he could train most of the time with this capacity, which enables him to boost all lower zones (Z2-Z4) to enormous levels.