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Barrus

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Cobblestoned said:
Is there any link or statement that really confirms that Lance is the target ?
Would be something new.

I don't mean some blogger articles or journalists, that repeat that 100 times to make people believe so.
I think that some of them wish so and claim it every time, so that in the end people buy these storys. Mission accomplished.

Just have a look at CN clinic's usual suspects.
The (Italian) story that originally broke the news stated that it either was, or was likely, to be connected to his GJ appearance.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
Is there any link or statement that really confirms that Lance is the target ?
Would be something new.

I don't mean some blogger articles or journalists, that repeat that 100 times to make people believe so.
I think that some of them wish so and claim it every time, so that in the end people buy these storys. Mission accomplished.

Just have a look at CN clinic's usual suspects.
Please forgive me if I assume you're not from the USA. In a case like this, with a grand jury, they're calling almost everyone BUT Armstrong to the grand jury stand. The Landis letter/emails name specific people and those people are being called. Almost everyone but Lance.

In the USA, we all have the constitutional right not to be compelled to offer testimony against ourselves, so it is natural for them to not even bother calling Lance to the stand. He'd merely "take the 5th" and not answer any of their questions.

So, in an investigation that involves a seated grand jury, the lack of a certain individual speaks volumes about who might be the target. The investigators usually begin by calling on the outer fringes of the target's friend & family circle to testify. Then they work their way inward. By the time the "inner circle" of the target is called to testify, the grand jury already knows a LOT. And these are where the perjury counts usually come from. Those most at risk of lying will usually be among the last called. When they do attempt to lie, the prosecutor nails them with knowledge supplied by many other sources.

It's like a cruel game of musical chairs. Lance would only be so lucky to be called as a witness.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Please forgive me if I assume you're not from the USA. In a case like this, with a grand jury, they're calling almost everyone BUT Armstrong to the grand jury stand. The Landis letter/emails name specific people and those people are being called. Almost everyone but Lance.

In the USA, we all have the constitutional right not to be compelled to offer testimony against ourselves, so it is natural for them to not even bother calling Lance to the stand. He'd merely "take the 5th" and not answer any of their questions.

So, in an investigation that involves a seated grand jury, the lack of a certain individual speaks volumes about who might be the target. The investigators usually begin by calling on the outer fringes of the target's friend & family circle to testify. Then they work their way inward. By the time the "inner circle" of the target is called to testify, the grand jury already knows a LOT. And these are where the perjury counts usually come from. Those most at risk of lying will usually be among the last called. When they do attempt to lie, the prosecutor nails them with knowledge supplied by many other sources.

It's like a cruel game of musical chairs. Lance would only be so lucky to be called as a witness.
+1. Whose phone rings last-Lance's or Weisel's?
 
Mar 8, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
Please forgive me if I assume you're not from the USA. In a case like this, with a grand jury, they're calling almost everyone BUT Armstrong to the grand jury stand. The Landis letter/emails name specific people and those people are being called. Almost everyone but Lance.

In the USA, we all have the constitutional right not to be compelled to offer testimony against ourselves, so it is natural for them to not even bother calling Lance to the stand. He'd merely "take the 5th" and not answer any of their questions.

So, in an investigation that involves a seated grand jury, the lack of a certain individual speaks volumes about who might be the target. The investigators usually begin by calling on the outer fringes of the target's friend & family circle to testify. Then they work their way inward. By the time the "inner circle" of the target is called to testify, the grand jury already knows a LOT. And these are where the perjury counts usually come from. Those most at risk of lying will usually be among the last called. When they do attempt to lie, the prosecutor nails them with knowledge supplied by many other sources.

It's like a cruel game of musical chairs. Lance would only be so lucky to be called as a witness.

So, what is this investigation about ?
You seem to know that. So please tell me, so that I can tell it Lance's lawyer.
He and most other people still don't know it.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Oldman said:
+1. Whose phone rings last-Lance's or Weisel's?
I think there's going to be a gang of them. Weisel, Och, Lance, Johan... perhaps 2-3 other riders. And then will come the list of perjury counts for GJ witnesses. I hope those people got the kinds of lawyers that said "never lie to the feds".
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
So please tell me, so that I can tell it Lance's lawyer. He and most other people still don't know it.
Why would he need to know? He's innocent, right? This is much ado about nothing if he's innocent.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
So, what is this investigation about ?
You seem to know that. So please tell me, so that I can tell it Lance's lawyer.
He and most other people still don't know it.
Which lawyer? Is it Daly, the new guy in California who is representing Lance in a case that he is (according to you) not involved in?

Or is it Fabiani? An attorney and spokesperson who tells us Lance never did any of the things the investigation (that isn't in to Lance) claims?
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Which lawyer? Is it Daly, the new guy in California who is representing Lance in a case that he is (according to you) not involved in?

Or is it Fabiani? An attorney and spokesperson who tells us Lance never did any of the things the investigation (that isn't in to Lance) claims?
Its not forbidden and no admission of guilt to pick up attorneys or say something.

So, Mr. Maserati, sorry that I have to cut your game here again, but:

What is this investigation about ?
Any confirmation that Lance is the target ?
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
Its not forbidden and no admission of guilt to pick up attorneys or say something.

So, Mr. Maserati, sorry that I have to cut your game here again, but:

What is this investigation about ?
Any confirmation that Lance is the target ?
You're right - I am sure Lance just like wasting his money having representation for something he is not part of.

Lance will find out what the investigation is about when he is given his indictment .
 
Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
You're right - I am sure Lance just like wasting his money having representation for something he is not part of.

Lance will find out what the investigation is about when he is given his indictment .
Thank you ! :D
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
What is this investigation about ?
I can tell you exactly what this investigation is about. It is about a possible breakdown in the "controlled" aspect of the system for controlled substances such as EPO, HGH , etc. Novitsky is an investigator for the FDA, the American agency responsible for the system that controls such substances. The reason investigators such as Novitsky exist, is that we want to make sure that doctors, pharmacists and others involved in the health care system are not committing fraud and endangering the public.

It has been alleged that these drugs were being systematically abused outside the system of control, and being an investigator for the agency most appropriate for looking into such matters, he has done so. An investigator has the latitude to initiate such investigations on his own, or in reaction to tips or information from outside sources. Although his title is "investigator", he is really a police officer. He is no different than any other Federal agent with a badge and gun.

The investigator then meets with a federal prosecutor about his progress and or findings, and they can then move to either charge those individuals, or they can seat a grand jury to investigate further. You may seat a grand jury to either issue indictments or to compel people to testify under oath. A grand jury may also investigate independently of the prosecutor if they feel that they're not being thorough enough (although this is rarely done).

Novitsky is not a prosecutor, and being that we've gotten confirmation (by the attorneys of several witnesses) that a grand jury has been seated, we can assume that the federal prosecutors saw fit to move further along.

This investigation is about the abuse of the system that controls certain compounds. If the investigation reveals MORE than that abuse, it does not preclude the investigator or prosecutor from looking into that. So, it started out as a controlled substance case and will likely become more. Most investigations become more than what they started as.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
I can tell you exactly what this investigation is about. It is about a possible breakdown in the "controled" aspect of controlled substances such as EPO, HGH and other controlled substances. Novitsky is an investigator for the FDA, the American agency responsible for the system that controls such substances.

It has been alleged that these drugs were being systematically abused outside the system of control, and being an investigator for the agency most appropriate for looking into such matters, he has done so.

Novitsky then meets with federal prosecutors about his findings, and they can then move to either charge those individuals, or they can seat a grand jury to investigate further.

Novitsky is not a prosecutor, and being that we've gotten confirmation that a grand jury has been seated (by the attorneys of several witnesses), we can assume that the federal prosecutors saw fit to move further along.

This investigation is about the abuse of the system that controls certain compounds. If the investigation reveals MORE than that abuse, it does not preclude the investigator from looking into it. So, it started out as a controlled substance case and will likely become more.
Exactly ?
So your source must be Novitsky ? Like Rrrrradio's source ?
Wow. What a coincidence. 2 leakers and they are posting here on CN.

Just joking. :D

Appreciated your work. Confirms my own speculation.

But i would say that they primary look after the men behind - not the athletes. That would make more sense than a witchhunt concentrated on Armstrong.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
Exactly ?
So your source must be Novitsky ? Like Rrrrradio's source ?
Wow. What a coincidence. 2 leakers and they are posting here on CN.

Just joking. :D

Appreciated your work. Confirms my own speculation.

But i would say that they primary look after the men behind - not the athletes. That would make more sense than a witchhunt concentrated on Armstrong.
They "seek" the men behind, but so many of the secondary and tertiary actors here are people who are famous. But really, they hear about the breakdown of the substance control system and they are compelled to investigate. Federal investigators have a lot of resources to go deep and discover.

It's one thing to get a program going for oneself, but to become involved in making programs for other people, that's a bit bigger, especially if it can be argued you're actually their boss.

If you think "leaking" indicates a breakdown in the criminal justice system, you're wrong. Any kind of case where there is a demand and thirst for exterior knowledge, there will be leaks. Anywhere in the world. Leaks are part of the deal. But I've seen it before... The defenders of the accused will almost without hesitation begin attacking the case the moment they see the leaks happening. It's been no different here.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
They "seek" the men behind, but so many of the secondary and tertiary actors here are people who are famous. But really, they hear about the breakdown of the substance control system and they are compelled to investigate. Federal investigators have a lot of resources to go deep and discover. It's one thing to get a program going for oneself, but to become involved in making programs for other people, that's a bit bigger, especially if it can be argued you're actually their boss.

If you think "leaking" indicates a breakdown in the criminal justice system, you're wrong. Any kind of case where there is a demand and thirst for exterior knowledge, there will be leaks. Anywhere in the world. Leaks are part of the deal. But I've seen it before... The defenders of the accused will almost without hesitation begin attacking the case the moment they see the leaks happening. It's been no different here.
I've been flogging this horse for some time and we may now have a parallel case in Contador. Contador alledges that the Spanish beef industry could have sold him tainted beef or the packaging could have contributed to a test result or some other fairy tale ending that absolves him. You can be certain that the Spanish version of the USADA will take such suggestions extremely seriously; not because Alberto is a national icon but because the huge beef industry pays lots of taxes and expects regulation.
The US and International pharmaceutical industry is no small trade group. When their market is undercut by counterfeit drugs they run several risks: loss of revenue to black market sources and possible circulation of a tainted product that forces them to pull legitimate drugs from the shelves. While the black market in PED's to stupid American master riders may seem small the damage done by a death(s) attributed to a drug and a subsequent recall is huge. Much bigger than Lance, cycling, the NFL and MLB combined.
While the cost of such and investigation vs. the fish boated seems out of scale the USADA is expected to send a serious message: we will prosecute the biggest names to stop even little crimes in this arena.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
Exactly ?
So your source must be Novitsky ? Like Rrrrradio's source ?
Wow. What a coincidence. 2 leakers and they are posting here on CN.

Just joking. :D

Appreciated your work. Confirms my own speculation.

But i would say that they primary look after the men behind - not the athletes. That would make more sense than a witchhunt concentrated on Armstrong.
And I'm flattered that you think I have some kind of special access to information that you do not. I wonder what makes you think I'm so special as to warrant such credibility? My sources are Google, Velonews, Velonation, CN, my education, and 30 years in and around the peloton.

Nothing I've said here (or anywhere else) would raise eyebrows in a courtroom, a defense attorney's office or the U.S. DOJ. But I'm certain that every now and again I say something that catches the eyes of our principal players in these matters. Just last week, I received a visitors message from a guy with the initials "TR" in regards to a comment I'd made in regards to Masters doping and the '84 Olympics. He was not happy.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Oldman said:
I've been flogging this horse for some time and we may now have a parallel case in Contador. Contador alledges that the Spanish beef industry could have sold him tainted beef or the packaging could have contributed to a test result or some other fairy tale ending that absolves him. You can be certain that the Spanish version of the USADA will take such suggestions extremely seriously; not because Alberto is a national icon but because the huge beef industry pays lots of taxes and expects regulation.
The US and International pharmaceutical industry is no small trade group. When their market is undercut by counterfeit drugs they run several risks: loss of revenue to black market sources and possible circulation of a tainted product that forces them to pull legitimate drugs from the shelves. While the black market in PED's to stupid American master riders may seem small the damage done by a death(s) attributed to a drug and a subsequent recall is huge. Much bigger than Lance, cycling, the NFL and MLB combined.
While the cost of such and investigation vs. the fish boated seems out of scale the USADA is expected to send a serious message: we will prosecute the biggest names to stop even little crimes in this arena.
Trust me, Amgen would like nothing more than to identify some corrupt docs and pharmacists here. They're tired of people implying that they have something to do with this problem. Of course, it does not help dispel that notion when they sponsor top cycling teams and events.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
And I'm flattered that you think I have some kind of special access to information that you do not. I wonder what makes you think I'm so special as to warrant such credibility? My sources are Google, Velonews, Velonation, CN, my education, and 30 years in and around the peloton.

Nothing I've said here (or anywhere else) would raise eyebrows in a courtroom, a defense attorney's office or the U.S. DOJ. But I'm certain that every now and again I say something that catches the eyes of our principal players in these matters. Just last week, I received a visitors message from a guy with the initials "TR" in regards to a comment I'd made in regards to Masters doping and the '84 Olympics. He was not happy.
Turbo is a member here? Didn't know he had a computer.....
 
May 20, 2010
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Popo's arrogant eastern european attitude and denial of everything in the US has angered Novitsky.....and oh man, you never do that.
 
Geeky Update

TexPat said:
Fellows, the point I clearly failed to make was that there was in all likelihood some very useful information on that hard drive, which is probably at the bottom of the local dump by now. Given the fact that they were very aggressive in getting it...
I didn't want this little bit of info fall by the wayside.

Knowing that there was email content is a good start to discovering it. Especially when the current email culture includes *lots* of cc's.

If his forensics team is any good at all, they only need one drive from one of the cc recipients that would have had the email on it. Then it is only a matter of time to sort through the "deleted" email on the drive. Email discovery is especially easy because it's mostly ASCII. Time consuming, but not difficult.

I'm sure some of you know this already, but when you 'delete' something on any modern operating system, it's still there. Reformatting a drive is not data destruction either. PM me if you want some extra info on the topic.

If only it were down to having some hard drives with emails on them. It would get ugly for Team Armstrong very fast.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
And I'm flattered that you think I have some kind of special access to information that you do not. I wonder what makes you think I'm so special as to warrant such credibility? My sources are Google, Velonews, Velonation, CN, my education, and 30 years in and around the peloton.

Nothing I've said here (or anywhere else) would raise eyebrows in a courtroom, a defense attorney's office or the U.S. DOJ. But I'm certain that every now and again I say something that catches the eyes of our principal players in these matters. Just last week, I received a visitors message from a guy with the initials "TR" in regards to a comment I'd made in regards to Masters doping and the '84 Olympics. He was not happy.
Flattered ? Uh, sorry.

You first appeared like you know things no one knows. But ok, unlike others, you quickly made it clear that this is not the case and we even harmonized in some way. :D
So, Mr.Eyecatcher, about the other issue: this is how it ends when you play with the fire. Surprised ?
I don't know TR, and I really don't care about American Masters and Critracers.
This is not my continent. There are more important things I care about around here.

You have to sort this out - from American to American. If there is a need for that.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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TexPat said:
Fellows, the point I clearly failed to make was that there was in all likelihood some very useful information on that hard drive, which is probably at the bottom of the local dump by now. Given the fact that they were very aggressive in getting it...
I wonder just how tech-savvy Mr Armstrong was as far as protecting his posterior? If Mr Andersen had to simultaneously serve as poolboy, trailmaker, bike mechanic, personal assistant and (as it sounded from the depo) virtually everything else, I can't imagine that Armstrong was willing to specifically pay for an ex-CIA guy to take care of his computer files.

If he's as sloppy as he was in stalking young Ms. Lemond, I don't think we have much to worry about.

As far as the email goes, it won't matter if the players delete and send their computers to Mars... The emails get copied on the intermediate servers in-between. Novitsky has little to worry about. At the very least, he'll know who talked to who (and when)
 
Sep 25, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I wonder just how tech-savvy Mr Armstrong was as far as protecting his posterior? If Mr Andersen had to simultaneously serve as poolboy, trailmaker, bike mechanic, personal assistant and (as it sounded from the depo) virtually everything else, I can't imagine that Armstrong was willing to specifically pay for an ex-CIA guy to take care of his computer files.

If he's as sloppy as he was in stalking young Ms. Lemond, I don't think we have much to worry about.

As far as the email goes, it won't matter if the players delete and send their computers to Mars... The emails get copied on the intermediate servers in-between. Novitsky has little to worry about. At the very least, he'll know who talked to who (and when)
botany, this post quoted above, though it jives with mine and many other users arguments about texas, is an indication that you're trolling.

why would you need to indirectly and caustically ridicule the user we all know is texpat and who publicly admitted being mr andersen ?

i don't like your style and your manners. sir.
 
May 20, 2010
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python said:
botany, this post quoted above, though it jives with mine and many other users arguments about texas, is an indication that you're trolling.

why would you need to indirectly and caustically ridicule the user we all know is texpat and who publicly admitted being mr andersen ?

i don't like your style and your manners. sir.
Thanks. It's Anderson from Scotland, not Andersen from Denmark.
And I certainly detected an unfriendly tone there, too. That's fine---I've heard far worse. Hats off to the media machine for reducing my role with Armstrong to poolboy. Truly golden.
Tech-savvy? Security-minded? Hardly.
Case in point: If you had a Blackberry with a list of telephone numbers that included a who's who of the powerful and famous (e.g. the POTUS ), would you pass it off to your assistant as a hand-me-down without removing those details first?
What about your old laptop? Would you just hand that over without cleaning it out first?
 
May 20, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
I wonder just how tech-savvy Mr Armstrong was as far as protecting his posterior? If Mr Andersen had to simultaneously serve as poolboy, trailmaker, bike mechanic, personal assistant and (as it sounded from the depo) virtually everything else, I can't imagine that Armstrong was willing to specifically pay for an ex-CIA guy to take care of his computer files.

If he's as sloppy as he was in stalking young Ms. Lemond, I don't think we have much to worry about.

As far as the email goes, it won't matter if the players delete and send their computers to Mars... The emails get copied on the intermediate servers in-between. Novitsky has little to worry about. At the very least, he'll know who talked to who (and when)
Have you got a link or copy of the depo? It would make for a very good read to alot of folks. I think what you may be referring to is an affidavit.
 

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