I think the main point is that Valverde's accomplishments are more comparable to Gilbert than guys like Boonen, Cancellara, Contador, Nibali, or Froome.
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Re: Re:
Are you sure your very big dislike for Valverde doesn't cloud your judgment?
El Pistolero said:
Are you sure your very big dislike for Valverde doesn't cloud your judgment?
Re: Re:
Yeah it's nonsense to say Valverde isn't clearly better than Gilbert, but Gilbert's classics results are definitely comparable to Piti's, and Gilbert isn't even almost the best one day racer of his generation. Moreover Valverde's gt record also isn't that impressive (only looking at wins) that I would put him above Contador, Cance and Boonen.Valv.Piti said:
Re:
Well most posters disagree with you, cause they placed Valverde as 2nd or 3rd out of this 4, you just need to read previous posts.
As for comparing with Gilbert, they're close with slight edge to Valverde, but only in one-day races. Overall it's light years of difference!
As for Froome and Nibali, they're still one level below. It requires a years of greatness to be in such company with Valverde, Contador, Boonen and Cancellara. They were on top since the very beginning of their careers and they still are. At least 10 years they are/were dominant riders of the peloton
DanielSong39 said:
Well most posters disagree with you, cause they placed Valverde as 2nd or 3rd out of this 4, you just need to read previous posts.
As for comparing with Gilbert, they're close with slight edge to Valverde, but only in one-day races. Overall it's light years of difference!
As for Froome and Nibali, they're still one level below. It requires a years of greatness to be in such company with Valverde, Contador, Boonen and Cancellara. They were on top since the very beginning of their careers and they still are. At least 10 years they are/were dominant riders of the peloton
Re: Re:
Surely you're not actually suggesting that Froome and Purito would be able to beat Valverde if all 3 turned up to FW in top form
El Pistolero said:
Surely you're not actually suggesting that Froome and Purito would be able to beat Valverde if all 3 turned up to FW in top form
Re: Re:
I think, Valverde vs Boonen/Cancellara/Contador comparsion discussion are enough.
Boonen/Cancellara/Contador got best palmares in their special area.
Let Valverde compare with all rounders who could do well in GT, Classics.
Cadel Evans -
Won less compared with Valverde.
But he got WC and TDF win. These are biggest win that Valverde missed.
He focused in TDF during his career. Keep beaten Finally get big wins after bio passport implmentation.
He is a clean rider relatively.
1 x TDF; 1 x WC ; 2 x Tour de Romandie ; 1 x Tirreno–Adriatico ; 1 x La Flèche Wallonne
Vincenzo Nibali
1 x TDF ; 1 x Giro ; 2 x Veulta ; 1 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x Tirreno–Adriatico
He could do well in classics. But his main targets are GTs.
Alexander Vinokourov
1 x Olympic RR ; 1 x Vuelta ; 2 x LBL ; Amstel Gold Race ; 1 x Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
Paris–Nice ; 1 x Tour de Suisse
Joaquim Rodríguez
Similar to Valverde. It is clear than Valverde has better result.
Damiano Cunego
1 x Giro ; 3 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x Amstel Gold Race
Danilo Di Luca
1 x Giro ; 1 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x LBL ; 1 x Amstel Gold Race ; 1 x La Flèche Wallonne
I think, Valverde vs Boonen/Cancellara/Contador comparsion discussion are enough.
Boonen/Cancellara/Contador got best palmares in their special area.
Let Valverde compare with all rounders who could do well in GT, Classics.
Cadel Evans -
Won less compared with Valverde.
But he got WC and TDF win. These are biggest win that Valverde missed.
He focused in TDF during his career. Keep beaten Finally get big wins after bio passport implmentation.
He is a clean rider relatively.
1 x TDF; 1 x WC ; 2 x Tour de Romandie ; 1 x Tirreno–Adriatico ; 1 x La Flèche Wallonne
Vincenzo Nibali
1 x TDF ; 1 x Giro ; 2 x Veulta ; 1 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x Tirreno–Adriatico
He could do well in classics. But his main targets are GTs.
Alexander Vinokourov
1 x Olympic RR ; 1 x Vuelta ; 2 x LBL ; Amstel Gold Race ; 1 x Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
Paris–Nice ; 1 x Tour de Suisse
Joaquim Rodríguez
Similar to Valverde. It is clear than Valverde has better result.
Damiano Cunego
1 x Giro ; 3 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x Amstel Gold Race
Danilo Di Luca
1 x Giro ; 1 x Giro di Lombardia ; 1 x LBL ; 1 x Amstel Gold Race ; 1 x La Flèche Wallonne
Re: Re:
Erm...
A hypothetical WC win for Valverde doesn't actually count - sorry.
Slight edge to Valverde for winning actually less and less important races...Mr.White said:
Erm...
Happened to see yesterday's race?Flamin said:
A hypothetical WC win for Valverde doesn't actually count - sorry.
1st: Contador
2nd: Boonen
3rd: Cancellara
4th: Other active rider
5th: Valverde
...
As for talks about Valverde and Gilbert as hilly classics riders, neither are near Bettini as the best in recent times.
2nd: Boonen
3rd: Cancellara
4th: Other active rider
5th: Valverde
...
As for talks about Valverde and Gilbert as hilly classics riders, neither are near Bettini as the best in recent times.
A better comparison is between Gilbert and Contador.
Both are riders who have just one real speciality (One day / GTs), with pretty limited results in the other type of races. Both were only really at their peak for about 2-3 years - a period in which they completely dominated their main events. Since then, both have still picked up one or two decent results each season, but have failed to really compete with the best in the most prestigious race(s) they focus on.
I guess whether you rate one over the other depends on how you value one day races relative to GTs. Personally I'd rate Gilbert slightly above Contador, because I think it's harder for the strongest rider to win a one day race than it is for the strongest rider to win a GT.
Both are riders who have just one real speciality (One day / GTs), with pretty limited results in the other type of races. Both were only really at their peak for about 2-3 years - a period in which they completely dominated their main events. Since then, both have still picked up one or two decent results each season, but have failed to really compete with the best in the most prestigious race(s) they focus on.
I guess whether you rate one over the other depends on how you value one day races relative to GTs. Personally I'd rate Gilbert slightly above Contador, because I think it's harder for the strongest rider to win a one day race than it is for the strongest rider to win a GT.
Re: Re:
We had a big discussion about Valverde vs. Nibali and I'm still not sure who of the two I'd rate higher (Valverde surely has the better palmares but I think Nibali is the guy who will be remembered more in the future because of the higher number of gt wins). All the other ones are definitely behind Valverde. Evans had some great victories but he would need more wins in one day races and probably also more gt wins. Vino for example has won a few more one day races, but still clearly less than Valverde and since he also "only" won the vuelta and not the tdf like Evans he is also clearly behind Piti. And the rest is not even close to Valverde. Purito's case would be interesting though if he would have won the giro/vuelta double 2012 and the WC 2013, 3 races he definitely could have won if he had been a little bit more lucky.toolittle said:
Re:
Contador has won 9 Grand Tours, what on earth are you talking about? (Let's keep doping out of this discussion as we all know how Valverde achieved his pre-ban wins).
Contador won Grand Tour(s) in 2007 (Tour), 2008 (Giro, Vuelta), 2009 (Tour), 2010 (Tour), 2011 (Giro), 2012 (Vuelta), 2014 (Vuelta) and 2015 (Giro). That's 8 seasons where he won a Grand Tour. Any Grand Tour is bigger than the 5 Monuments. Only the World Championships and Olympics can compete with the "lesser" GTs in prestige.
Contador also won Paris-Nice (2007, 2010), Vuelta al Pais Vasco (2008, 2009, 2014, 2016), Volta a Catalunya (2011) and Tirreno-Adriatico (2014). I consider these races to be more prestigious than the likes of La Flèche Wallonne and Clasica San Sebastian.
Damn, Valverde fans are really delusional it seems. Next you'll tell me a second place is bigger than a win. :lol:
DFA123 said:
Contador has won 9 Grand Tours, what on earth are you talking about? (Let's keep doping out of this discussion as we all know how Valverde achieved his pre-ban wins).
Contador won Grand Tour(s) in 2007 (Tour), 2008 (Giro, Vuelta), 2009 (Tour), 2010 (Tour), 2011 (Giro), 2012 (Vuelta), 2014 (Vuelta) and 2015 (Giro). That's 8 seasons where he won a Grand Tour. Any Grand Tour is bigger than the 5 Monuments. Only the World Championships and Olympics can compete with the "lesser" GTs in prestige.
Contador also won Paris-Nice (2007, 2010), Vuelta al Pais Vasco (2008, 2009, 2014, 2016), Volta a Catalunya (2011) and Tirreno-Adriatico (2014). I consider these races to be more prestigious than the likes of La Flèche Wallonne and Clasica San Sebastian.
Damn, Valverde fans are really delusional it seems. Next you'll tell me a second place is bigger than a win. :lol:
Re:
Totally agree, you can't be considered the best of your generation if you are only good at one thing. What's more as you say Alberto made the most of the week opposition in the post Armstrong-Ulrich-Rasmussen era when most of the best no longer had the level due to clinic reasons. Once Froome and Quintana emerged Alberto's dominance stopped and his true level was uncovered. Valverde on the other hand fought against the best in the mountains of grand tours during the armstong era regularly winning stages. He won his grand tour in the contador era and is still strong in the froome era. On top of this he has been the best ardennes rider for the past decade beating the likes of Rebellin, Gilbert... Let's not forget gilbert wins came when Valverde was absent, Valverde has always beaten the best hence why he is the best of the four and by Far.DFA123 said:
Re:
You got my attention with the first sentence
The second sentence is actually right
The third sentence is hilarious.
DFA123 said:
You got my attention with the first sentence
The second sentence is actually right
The third sentence is hilarious.
Too much haters in this cycling forum. Valverde clearly lacks that winner mentality that many others have, like Gilbert for example; somotimes it looks like he has no blood in his veins (spanish expression). But who the hell of the riders in the last decade has the talent of make podium in every *** race they enter? GTs, one week races and one day races? Valverdes talent is way *** superior of everybody else in the last decade.
Re: Re:
Yep, what's your point? Valverde just did the Giro and Tour, what did you expect?
Of course it doesn't count. Just saying one should see things in perspective.
Jagartrott said:
Yep, what's your point? Valverde just did the Giro and Tour, what did you expect?
Of course it doesn't count. Just saying one should see things in perspective.
He's got talent in more area's. In specific area's he's less talented than the other 3. That's the most objective conclusion I can make. I wouldn't call that 'way *** superior to anyone else in the last decade' per se.
Re:
No, you are wrong. What you call talent in an specific area its whats its known as specialization. Being capable of contend in every kind of terrain is talent.Red Rick said:
Re:
What separates Valverde from the rest is that, as well as his speciality, he can also climb high mountains and sprint to a really high level. And he can do it consistently for 8 months of the year.
That doesn't make sense. They all have a talent in a specific area that the others don't. At their best they were each the best in the world at one type of skill. Contador was the best high mountain climber, Cancellara the best time trialler, Boonen the best sprinter/cobbled rider and Valverde the best on shorter punchy climbs.Red Rick said:
What separates Valverde from the rest is that, as well as his speciality, he can also climb high mountains and sprint to a really high level. And he can do it consistently for 8 months of the year.
Re: Re:
Apparently, each and every decathlon athlete is more talented than Usain Bolt. See what I did there?
Fernandez said:
Apparently, each and every decathlon athlete is more talented than Usain Bolt. See what I did there?
Re: Re:
It's uch harder for one of the strongest riders to win a monument. The top riders are always there in prime form, and you only have one shot at it. Luck and tactics can often take it out of your hands and the strongest riders often don't win - particularly in the two hilly monuments.
Ultimately Contador has ridden the Tour de France - by far his biggest race - nine times. By the record books he's won it twice - and one of those was because the strongest rider was pulled with less than a handful of stages to go. He hasn't come close to winning it for six years. Him winning the Vuelta when everyone else is tired and focused on other things, is a bit like how Gilbert still picks up the odd stage win or the odd Amstel gold here and there, but he also hasn't come close to winning a monument for five years.
The comparison is strong.
It's easy for one of the top 3 riders in the world to win a GT each season these days. All they have to do is avoid the 1 or 2 riders stronger than them in peak form, avoid crashing and make sure they don't carelessly lose time on flat stages. Then they should win. Contador has basically padded out his palmares by beating second rate or tired rivals at the Giro and Vuelta in recent years.El Pistolero said:
It's uch harder for one of the strongest riders to win a monument. The top riders are always there in prime form, and you only have one shot at it. Luck and tactics can often take it out of your hands and the strongest riders often don't win - particularly in the two hilly monuments.
Ultimately Contador has ridden the Tour de France - by far his biggest race - nine times. By the record books he's won it twice - and one of those was because the strongest rider was pulled with less than a handful of stages to go. He hasn't come close to winning it for six years. Him winning the Vuelta when everyone else is tired and focused on other things, is a bit like how Gilbert still picks up the odd stage win or the odd Amstel gold here and there, but he also hasn't come close to winning a monument for five years.
The comparison is strong.
Thats not a valid comparison (Usain Bolt vs decathloner). If you want to compare Contador and Valverde to leight athletics, Contador would be someone like Justin Gatlin, meanwhile Valverde would be a decathloner that is also best in the world in one of the disciplines
Re: Re:
What makes Valverde unique is that he is the best in the world at something, but also has this incredibly rounded power profile. Most all rounders are jack of all trades, masters of none, because they have to dedicate training time to top up all different attriubtes. Valverde is undoutedly a master of one trade, and a (very good) jack of all the others.
Ridiculous isn't it? Valverde is the best in the world at short, punchy climbs. A better analogy would be if a great middle distance runner like David Rudisha was also mixing it with the best in the marathon, and beating 400m runners in sprints.Fernandez said:
What makes Valverde unique is that he is the best in the world at something, but also has this incredibly rounded power profile. Most all rounders are jack of all trades, masters of none, because they have to dedicate training time to top up all different attriubtes. Valverde is undoutedly a master of one trade, and a (very good) jack of all the others.
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