Rate the 2013 Giro d'Italia Route

[airstream]

Libertine Seguros, which gt route do you rate the most highly in the foreseeable recent past?

 

[Magnus]

UCI rules are irrelevant. It's 240 kms if I recall correctly but it's a breakable limit.

Since we're discussing a sport governed by UCI rules I'd say they're relevant. But that's just me being pedantic I guess. And yes it is a breakable limit but when was the last time we saw a GT stage over 300km? Or 275 even.

It's hard when you're left alone. Unless you put three Zoncolans in a row, staying in the peloton makes it less hard. What I want 'hard' stages to do is to wipe out domestiques.

Obviously riding in the peloton is easier than riding on your own.
Domestiques are wiped out by intensity and not by accumulated km. It's not like all domestiques are wiped out by riding 150 km in the mountains so that in a 150 km mountain stage you get the captains battling it out alone for 0 km but in a 250 km you get them mano a mano for 100 km.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Eshnar, how likely do you think it is that the Gavia - Stelvio stage can even take place? Two descents from 2700 m.a.s.l. seems a bit much at that time of year.

Tonale - Palade - Val Martello would be the bad weather or avalanche risk -alternative, I guess...

 

[Eshnar]

Since we're discussing a sport governed by UCI rules I'd say they're relevant. But that's just me being pedantic I guess. And yes it is a breakable limit but when was the last time we saw a GT stage over 300km? Or 275 even.


Obviously riding in the peloton is easier than riding on your own.
Domestiques are wiped out by intensity and not by accumulated km.

can you provide an example to this?
Because I can't recall a stage shorter than 150 kms where domestiques weren't a factor.

 

[Eshnar]

Eshnar, how likely do you think it is that the Gavia - Stelvio stage can even take place?

Global warming is our friend

Seriously, the risk is huge. Not only for Gavia/Stelvio but also for Galibier and Tre Cime. The altitude of this Giro is incredibly high overall.

 

[Netserk]

Since we're discussing a sport governed by UCI rules I'd say they're relevant. But that's just me being pedantic I guess. And yes it is a breakable limit but when was the last time we saw a GT stage over 300km? Or 275 even.


Obviously riding in the peloton is easier than riding on your own.
Domestiques are wiped out by intensity and not by accumulated km. It's not like all domestiques are wiped out by riding 150 km in the mountains so that in a 150 km mountain stage you get the captains battling it out alone for 0 km but in a 250 km you get them mano a mano for 100 km.

In 2009 stage 10 was 262 km long.

 

[Descender]

Since we're discussing a sport governed by UCI rules I'd say they're relevant. But that's just me being pedantic I guess. And yes it is a breakable limit but when was the last time we saw a GT stage over 300km? Or 275 even.


Obviously riding in the peloton is easier than riding on your own.
Domestiques are wiped out by intensity and not by accumulated km. It's not like all domestiques are wiped out by riding 150 km in the mountains so that in a 150 km mountain stage you get the captains battling it out alone for 0 km but in a 250 km you get them mano a mano for 100 km.

Like in the 2011 Galibier-Alpe d'Huez stage, right?

Back up your claims with evidence or else it has to be dismissed.

 

[hfer07]

Too balanced for Giro standards


7/10


Zomegnan has risen the bar so high that it seems almost unattainable to achieve a course that daring anymore. Acquarone is to me playing it "pleasant for the foreign GT riders" so attendance is appealing for those looking options beyond the Tour....

having said that, stage 20 is a killer!!!

 

[Magnus]

can you provide an example to this?
Because I can't recall a stage shorter than 150 kms where domestiques weren't a factor.

No matter what domestiques will always be a factor and stating otherwise is nonsense.

I'm sure whatever example I come up with you come up with a counterexample and we could go on ad infinitum nagging about why each others examples are worthless.

Take stage 16 and 17 of this years TdF (197 and 143,5 km respectively). Do you think there was a lot of difference in the way domestiques influenced the race?

 

[Eshnar]

No matter what domestiques will always be a factor and stating otherwise is nonsense.

yes, but having one domestique left is always worse (for a rider poit of view, for mine is better) than having more.

Take stage 16 and 17 of this years TdF (197 and 143,5 km respectively). Do you think there was a lot of difference in the way domestiques influenced the race?

ofc not. Stage 16 was crap on paper and turned out to be exactly that. Stage 17 was a bit better but had that silly length.

 

[Magnus]

Like in the 2011 Galibier-Alpe d'Huez stage, right?

Back up your claims with evidence or else it has to be dismissed.

Yeah like that. How many riders was together by the foot of Alpe d'Huez? And compared to the 210 km Alpe d'Huez stage in 2008?

And impressive as Contador's attack was, he had what? 30 seconds to Evans on Galibier?
Not really surprising that things got back together the way they did. Of course you can attribute that to stage length but I don't.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I like the course, but think there's not enough big mountain stages. However, I really like the long ITT early, at stage 8. This means if it's won by a TT rider (Wiggins, anyone?!), they'll be expending a fair amount of energy to defend it for a bit, when the two toughest mountain stages are deep in the third week. That alone makes everything more intriguing.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Libertine Seguros, which gt route do you rate the most highly in the foreseeable recent past?

2010 was the last time we had a set of decent GT routes, in my opinion.

The Giro had a bit too much craziness in week 1 with the Dutch road furniture rendering pile-ups and injuries almost certain, but they gave us the strade bianche, a relatively early mountain (Terminillo, which didn't shake things up much after the mud the previous day), some tricky week 2 stuff including a really long and really tough stage for a breakaway (L'Aquila, which would have fulfilled a purpose even without the freakish breakaway). Then when we got to the high mountains you had a descent finish (Grappa), a MTF on a super hard climb that didn't need any introduction (Zoncolán), a MTT, a MTF on an easy climb after a super hard one (Aprica) meaning you'd get attacks multiple climbs out, followed by a similar thing with a tougher second climb and a longer first one (Tonale). Weaknesses were the length of the TTT, should perhaps have had an ITT of 25-30 in there instead, and the craziness in the Netherlands. However, that route meant that some guys could turn up peaking for week 1 and gain advantages, others could turn up peaking for week 3 and have deficits to make up.

The Tour that year was fairly good too. They had the early GC-shake-up stages by having the neutralised Ardennes stage and then the cobbles. This then made the later sprints safer because you didn't have the problem of everybody crowding the front to try to protect stuff like we've had recently. You had a relatively easy MTF to sort the wheat from the chaff (Morzine) and a proper multi-mountain stage without an MTF (St Jean de Maurienne). The problem was the way the race tailed off; the Gap stage was unfunny and the Pau stage was terrible. I would have preferred Hautacam, Luz or even Cam Basque instead of Tourmalet for the MTF on 17 too, while the three consecutive long pancake flat sprinters' stages from the cobbles to Les Rousses tested my patience.

The Vuelta that year wasn't bad. They had early shake-up stages (Málaga and Valdepeñas de Jaén) and used some brand new tricks to stop it from being too backloaded. The Pal stage was more or less nothing, but turned into a good race thanks to Ezequiel Mosquera and some illicit substances. They went overkill on the MTFs in week 3, but at least varied them a bit, from Peña Cabarga to Cotobello. Could have done with an extra time trial. I also think Lagos de Covadonga is overdue a long lay-off. They had some brand new stuff for us (Valdepeñas de Jaén, Bola del Mundo) to convince us the Vuelta was progressive and vibrant, as well as resurrecting some long-forgotten spots (Peña Cabarga).

None of them were great routes and all had their flaws, but that was a pretty good set of recent GTs.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Global warming is our friend

Seriously, the risk is huge. Not only for Gavia/Stelvio but also for Galibier and Tre Cime. The altitude of this Giro is incredibly high overall.

Galibier in mid-May is the most unlikely. Has avalanche blasting ever been done in a GT?

 

[Netserk]

2010 was the last time we had a set of decent GT routes, in my opinion.

The Giro had a bit too much craziness in week 1 with the Dutch road furniture rendering pile-ups and injuries almost certain, but they gave us the strade bianche, a relatively early mountain (Terminillo, which didn't shake things up much after the mud the previous day), some tricky week 2 stuff including a really long and really tough stage for a breakaway (L'Aquila, which would have fulfilled a purpose even without the freakish breakaway). Then when we got to the high mountains you had a descent finish (Grappa), a MTF on a super hard climb that didn't need any introduction (Zoncolán), a MTT, a MTF on an easy climb after a super hard one (Aprica) meaning you'd get attacks multiple climbs out, followed by a similar thing with a tougher second climb and a longer first one (Tonale). Weaknesses were the length of the TTT, should perhaps have had an ITT of 25-30 in there instead, and the craziness in the Netherlands. However, that route meant that some guys could turn up peaking for week 1 and gain advantages, others could turn up peaking for week 3 and have deficits to make up.

The Tour that year was fairly good too. They had the early GC-shake-up stages by having the neutralised Ardennes stage and then the cobbles. This then made the later sprints safer because you didn't have the problem of everybody crowding the front to try to protect stuff like we've had recently. You had a relatively easy MTF to sort the wheat from the chaff (Morzine) and a proper multi-mountain stage without an MTF (St Jean de Maurienne). The problem was the way the race tailed off; the Gap stage was unfunny and the Pau stage was terrible. I would have preferred Hautacam, Luz or even Cam Basque instead of Tourmalet for the MTF on 17 too, while the three consecutive long pancake flat sprinters' stages from the cobbles to Les Rousses tested my patience.

The Vuelta that year wasn't bad. They had early shake-up stages (Málaga and Valdepeñas de Jaén) and used some brand new tricks to stop it from being too backloaded. The Pal stage was more or less nothing, but turned into a good race thanks to Ezequiel Mosquera and some illicit substances. They went overkill on the MTFs in week 3, but at least varied them a bit, from Peña Cabarga to Cotobello. Could have done with an extra time trial. I also think Lagos de Covadonga is overdue a long lay-off. They had some brand new stuff for us (Valdepeñas de Jaén, Bola del Mundo) to convince us the Vuelta was progressive and vibrant, as well as resurrecting some long-forgotten spots (Peña Cabarga).

None of them were great routes and all had their flaws, but that was a pretty good set of recent GTs.

Is a very important part of a GT IMO.

 

[guncha]

Not in week one. There are only hilly stages in week 1

Stage 4 has decent climb shortly before finish. Together with ITT, TTT and hills it is good first week.

 

[webvan]

Very good route, decent ITT distance and no ridiculous mountain goat climbs like Zoncolan. This year's Vuelta showed, if need be, that they are just for show and don't allow for meaningful gaps to build.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

 

[Bavarianrider]

Great

 

[The Hitch]

6 for me, could of been worse as they are definetly trying to take away the bonkers factor.
But this IS the Giro should be at least one stage that makes you say omfg,be it strade bianche or huge multi climb stage
Not doing a few laps of WC course a tad annoying too.

wait. They arent? What a stupid decision.

 

[The Hitch]

i give it a 6. Tre Cime is good and i hear there are hilly stages (havent seen all of them) though from what ive seen many are hill at the end rather than in middle.

the 2 150km mountain stages could work too. I think Stelvio could really be interestiing.

Using Galibier is a joke though. Shame on the Giro. and all the mountains being major mtfs aint great neither.

But at least ttt is only 17km. 17km too long but way better than 20 or 30.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

Using Galibier is a joke though. Shame on the Giro. and all the mountains being major mtfs aint great neither.

I don't know, the stage seems to give the Galibier a new twist. If I'm not mistaken, that side hasn't been used in the 2011 Tour for the MTF?
I always like if they do a new take on an already overused mountain.

 

[Eshnar]

wait. They arent? What a stupid decision.

They do only one lap.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I always like if they don't use a mountain that even its defenders describe as "overused".

No, it's not been done as an MTF from this side before, but frankly there is no reason to do Galibier as an MTF. Why are they doing it?

- To honour Pantani: well, why aren't they going to Les-Deux-Alpes then?
- To produce an epic stage: well, why is it a 150km one-climb special then?
- To produce a crazy high stage finish: they finished on Stelvio this year, which makes it a bit unnecessary
- To climb a popular French climb: in that case, why does it have to be an MTF, why can't they descend into Briançon to finish?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Look at the 1994 route for example, almost exactly the same patterns.
Simply a prologe isntead of a short TT. And mountain stages were longer, but that were mainly flat run ins. They didn't have more mountains.
All in all It's really very similar.

Etappe von nach km Gewinner Trikot Maglia rosa
1A Bologna Bologna 86 Italien Endrio Leoni Italien Endrio Leoni
1B Bologna Bologna 7 (EZF) Frankreich Armand de Las Cuevas Frankreich Armand de Las Cuevas
2 Bologna Osimo 232 Italien Moreno Argentin Italien Moreno Argentin
3 Osimo Loreto Aprutino 185 Italien Gianni Bugno
4 Montesilvano Marina Campitello Matese 204 Russland Eugeni Berzin Russland Eugeni Berzin
5 Campobasso Melfi 158 Italien Endrio Leoni
6 Potenza Caserta 215 Italien Marco Saligari
7 Fiuggi Fiuggi 119 Spanien Laudelino Cubino
8 Grosseto Follonica 44 (EZF) Russland Eugeni Berzin
9 Castiglione della Pescaia Pontedera 153 Tschechien Ján Svorada
10 Marostica Marostica 115 Usbekistan Dschamolidin Abduschaparov
11 Marostica Bibione 165 Tschechien Ján Svorada
12 Bibione Kranj (SLO) 204 Italien Andrea Ferrigato
13 Kranj Lienz (AUT) 234 Italien Michele Bartoli
14 Lienz Meran 235 Italien Marco Pantani
15 Meran Aprica 195 Italien Marco Pantani
16 Sondrio Stradella 220 Italien Maximilian Sciandri
17 Santa Maria della Versa (PV) Lavagna 200 Tschechien Ján Svorada
18 Chiavari Passo del Bocco 35 (EZF) Russland Eugeni Berzin
19 Lavagna Bra 212 Italien Massimo Ghirotto
20 Cuneo Les Deux Alpes (FRA) 201 Ukraine Wladimir Pulnikow
21 Les Deux Alpes Sestriere 121 Schweiz Pascal Richard
22 Turin Mailand 198 Italien Stefano Zanini

So It's really not an unusual route. In fact it's a typical giro route. You know Zongeman wasn't race director for too long