Rate the 2018 Tour de France route

[railxmig]

Vendée doesn't really have much to offer (or i just looked in the wrong places).

Well, Vendée is one of the flattest départements in France, and having another hilltop finish at the Mont des Alouettes or Le Puy du Fou may be a bit repetitive.

I wasn't thinking about cycling, more about interesting places.

I'm okay with the 2nd weekend, even if i would argue that Chartres is a nicer looking place to Amiens, but i guess Amiens will be the WW1 stage (100 years since WW1 ended).

The WW1 link may play a role, but the French president is from Amiens, so that may be the july 14th reference.

Didn't know that, thx for the info.

I hate this Mende murito, as it's way overused while not being anything special.

It's not the Zocolan or so, but it always creates some gaps between the favourites.

It's just me disliking a climb, like LS not liking Tourmalet, while for some reason hyping Tzecore. I actually agree with LS for a descent finish in Mende, just to change things up a lil bit.

 

[Netserk]

Vendée doesn't really have much to offer (or i just looked in the wrong places).

Well, Vendée is one of the flattest départements in France, and having another hilltop finish at the Mont des Alouettes or Le Puy du Fou may be a bit repetitive.

Hasn't it only been used in prologues?

 

[Arredondo]

I'm still in dubio about this route. I'll go with a 6/10 at the end.

Some positive things:
- A proper cobble-stage. If you're opting for carnage, you better create carnage. That 'cobble-stage' back in 2015 was absolutely atrocious.

- Two out of three Alpine stages are decently designed. The Rosiere stage is good. Maybe the climbs are a little bit too soft, but the lenght of the stage is promising and the distance between the climbs invites some attacking racing. The stage to Alpe d'Huez is hard enough with Madeleine, Croix de Fer and the Alp. On the other hand, i don't like Alpe d'Huez really; as a climb and because of it's atmosphere. But it's ok i guess.

- I really like the Carcasssonne stage. It's maybe not hard enough to create carnage amongst the GC-guys, but it has the potential for some onorthodox racing. But most of all it's a stage perfectly suited for a good breakaway fight.

- The Saint-Lary-Soulan stage is abolutely nuts. Could be a total failure, but most likely it will turn it to be a great stage. I think everyone will look forward to the Col de Portet, which is extremely hard. Maybe because of the difficulty of the final climb, the favorites will tend to wait till the absolute end. But let's give the organisers some credit for designing such a stage.

- The final ITT is too short, but the course is great. I really like the fact they're putting a TT near the Pyrenees, which makes it a really challenging course which relatively suits the stronger riders/climbers.

Negatives
- First two stages: if no wind, boring!

- A horrendous stage on Quatorze Julliet.

- The fact they're putting a lot of mediocre stages into the weekend. I mean: a lot of people aren't able to watch all the stages from beginning till the end through the week. ASO should take this into notion.

- Too many flat stages in general in the first week

- No long flat ITT

- A poorly designed last Pyreneen stage

But in the end it's good the Tour is going to visit more not so famous climbs. Alpe d'Huez, Tourmalet, Peyresourde: it's starting to get repetitive.

 

[MikeTichondrius]

Rated this one a 7. After all the fearmongering before the presentation it actually turned out really interesting a route. More detailed thoughts below.

Vendée stages are nothing to write home about. But you need mass sprints and this TdF doesn't overdo them that much like last year (or at least it sure doesn't feel like it, I haven't compared years). They get a pass from me. TTTs aren't really my thing and I feel that, having a team as strong as Sky, making a relatively long one isn't in the race's best interest. I'd keep it below 25km.

Quimper and Mur de Bretagne should make for interesting finishes, define an early MJ and allow us to see some signs of strength or weakness. Probably Sagan/Gilbert/GvA slugfests.

Two more sprint stages - I like how ASO have spread them out this time instead of the huge packs of them we had this past summer.

Roubaix stage - Impressed that ASO is going for this after the legendary Arenberg stage that took Froome out - I'd totally forgotten about the Cambrai stage the year after to be quite honest. Hope Nibali rides this. Never seen such a strong performance from a GC contender on the cobbles like his in 2014, shows how good it was!

Alpine stages - Sorry, I honestly can't complain about anything here. I like what ASO have done with these. They are finally willing to use new climbs consistently and even repeatedly like with Mont Bisanne, so it's not a one-trick pony sort of situation. We get the classic Alpine slog over the major cols into Huez but we also get Gliéres and Pré. Yes Telegraphe-Galibier-Sarenne would be more novel but I don't think the racing would be as good as people think. Also they love the classic Huez climb - If you want a proper lead in into that then lobby ASO for an upgrade to the Col de Solude road.

I don't mind Rosiére and from what I understand they're going the extra mile to use a different, harder stretch of road (the oft-mentioned Montvalezan side). So good job there too. Two MTFs, one descent finish, hard stages.

Don't mind the Valence stage, considering this is the only chance sprinters get between Amiens and Pau. Happy about Carcassonne and Mende. I don't mind the overuse of Mende as it basically guarantees action in at least one day between mountain ranges. Originally thought Carcassonne would be flat. Pic de Nore adds nuance. Typical Massif Central breakaway stage.

Now the Pyrenees - they aren't perfect by a longshot. I like the flat stage to Pau in the middle (basically the only good way to use Pau!) as it guarantees everybody will go all out on the Portet stage and is also a good example of the way they distributed the sprints in an uniform fashion that does help avoid fatigue. I also like they way they did the stage to Luchon as an intro to what's coming (not overly hard - not that easy either).

Like most people, I was initially skeptical over the Portet stage. Balés did fit nicely in there and I do fear about favoring televised spectacle over the test of endurance this is supposed to be. But honestly? If they race this the way ASO wants them to, It'll be nuts and amazing to watch, especially with the sprint day afterwards. Portet was so out of left field too.

The final day is good enough. Note that they're using Bordéres before Soulor so that should make the easier side a tad harder. I don't think coming from the west into Laruns would help, even if that's the harder side of Marie Blanque there'd be some flat to the finish afterwards. And that's a long way to go flat if you want to do MB after using PSM as a pass. Aspin and Tourmalet make sense. There were two ways to make it harder - one would be the very popular Spandelles, however the Route du Sud also trialled Luz-Ardiden (or about 2/3 of it) as a pass this year. That would do the trick!

TT is good. But we needed a 30km+ flat TT too to make it balanced. Most of my score points were lost due to this. I grew up used to proper TT distances. Not that I particularly enjoy them, but I have to admit that some of the most tense and suspenseful moments I've experienced in cycling were TDF TTs. We shouldn't lose that.

Parade into Paris. Froome 5th TDF...Or is it?

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

- Nuke Pau. Nuke Pau very desperately.

Didn't somebody get permabanned some time ago for suggesting a team should be executed? But now a mod is suggesting an entire town should be murdered! Even desperately so! Naughty hypocrite mods........ :sad:

Then again, it's Pau

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

- Nuke Pau. Nuke Pau very desperately.

Didn't somebody get permabanned some time ago for suggesting a team should be executed? But now a mod is suggesting an entire town should be murdered! Even desperately so! Naughty hypocrite mods........ :sad:

Then again, it's Pau

Come on...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Redoing week 3 using the existing stage towns:

Stage 16: Carcassonne - Bagnères-de-Luchon, 259km

Stage 17: Bagnères-de-Luchon - Saint-Lary-Soulan (Col de Portet), 113km

Stage 18: Lourdes - Pau, 53,4km (CLM)

Stage 19: Trie-sur-Baïse - Espelette, 214km

Stage 20: Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle - Laruns, 193km

Possible problem is the ITT killing action on stage 17, but with a 16km @ 8,3% MTF I'd be hopeful you'd at least see action there, especially with a 260km mountain stage the day before.

Otherwise we could move the ITT to stage 20, though that makes the likelihood of desperation moves on Soudet or Marie-Blanque unlikely.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

- Nuke Pau. Nuke Pau very desperately.

Didn't somebody get permabanned some time ago for suggesting a team should be executed? But now a mod is suggesting an entire town should be murdered! Even desperately so! Naughty hypocrite mods........ :sad:

Then again, it's Pau

Come on...

I'll settle for just erasing it on the maps that the ASO use to design their routes. Real life Pau can stay.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Redoing week 3 using the existing stage towns:

Stage 16: Carcassonne - Bagnères-de-Luchon, 259km

Stage 17: Bagnères-de-Luchon - Saint-Lary-Soulan (Col de Portet), 113km

Stage 18: Lourdes - Pau, 53,4km (CLM)

Stage 19: Trie-sur-Baïse - Espelette, 214km

Stage 20: Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle - Laruns, 193km

Possible problem is the ITT killing action on stage 17, but with a 16km @ 8,3% MTF I'd be hopeful you'd at least see action there, especially with a 260km mountain stage the day before.

Otherwise we could move the ITT to stage 20, though that makes the likelihood of desperation moves on Soudet or Marie-Blanque unlikely.

That looks brilliant to me. I don't think the ITT placement is that big of a problem as I don't think Col de Portet will be very neutralized and earlier moves aren't happening anyway. Flat ITT is a bit long for my taste, but that's mostly because it looks very much like the better ITTers also have a huge advantage in the TTTs and on the cobbles.

I really, really like the stage to Laruns, but the placement is a problem because domestiques will basically have had 2 relatively easy days, even though fatigue should accumulate faster with the smaller teams.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ah, but in my race, the Cholet TT is in fact a clone of the 29,5km ITT in the 2008 Tour, and the TTT is blasted into space. There's actually three hills in the ITT, two punchy types between Nay and Gan (the second timecheck is at the top of the first, which is about 2km at 6%), plus it finishes with a lap of the technical Pau street circuit motor racing course which has some ramps up past 12%.

It's definitely not a hilly TT, and most certainly favours the flat power engines, but it's not a pancake either.

 

[Netserk]

Libertine, I see you have used the east side of Soudet as descent, so if we are going to the very extreme of what is probable (viewtopic.php?p=1263002#p1263002), I'd prefer a final where the 'usual' ascent of Spandelles is descended and then have Aubisque from the north as the final climb. Perhaps the part from the top of Couraduque and to where it links to Spandelles could be paved, if so the original design (minus Aspin) could be used before that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Libertine, I see you have used the east side of Soudet as descent, so if we are going to the very extreme of what is probable (viewtopic.php?p=1263002#p1263002), I'd prefer a final where the 'usual' ascent of Spandelles is descended and then have Aubisque from the north as the final climb. Perhaps the part from the top of Couraduque and to where it links to Spandelles could be paved, if so the original design (minus Aspin) could be used before that.

Well, in fairness, there's an almost identical distance between the summits of Soudet and Marie-Blanque whether you use the east side on the D441 as I did or the D341/D241 to Issor as used in the 2016 Vuelta, so that would be the contingency plan. You can't avoid that narrow technical section on the D441 between Labays and the D341/441 junction, anyway, after which it seemed much of a muchness to me.

 

[Netserk]

They descended D132 down to Arette in the Vuelta, no?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hmm, possibly. Either way, whatever they did in the Vuelta had 46,2km between Soudet and Marie-Blanque, same as my stage. So if they don't like the descent of Soudet East they can do whatever they did in that Vuelta stage

 

[gregrowlerson]

Excellent redesigns LS.

ASO really haven't got stage 17 right anyway, as they are trying for an ambush stage, but an ambush stage shouldn't have the most difficult climb in the entire three weeks as its MTF! An ambush stage needs something that doesn't frighten the riders at the finish, so as to encourage attacking racing earlier.

Could a new third week work with just the Portet as a MTT? At least you would increase the number of ITT kms then, and the Portet will possibly be raced almost like an ITT anyway. Anyone like to have the current stage 16 extended out to Saint-Lary-Soulan?

 

[Netserk]

I just saw an opportunity to use Spandelles as an alternative and ran with it (I really do hope it's not impossible to have the descent [either one] used in the Tour).

Edit: ^^keep the stage as it is, 65km is just perfect for a MTT

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

I just saw an opportunity to use Spandelles as an alternative and ran with it (I really do hope it's not impossible to have the descent [either one] used in the Tour).

Edit: ^^keep the stage as it is, 65km is just perfect for a MTT

I didn't want to be greedy

 

[bassano]

I gave it 5 but there are things I really do not understand
35km TTT (I do not consider any TTT as fair, they should count only to team classification, not to GC anyway), sorry but that is just unfair to someone with not so great team as Sky e.g. is, how someone said, make it ITT and would be good and fair, Froome would grab same time to others in ITT as in TTT but would be at least his effort and among other GC contenders there will be unfair this advantages based on team quality, cobble stages is no problem for me, but at least put some real one there, this is short and cobbles are not that hard unless there will be rain and hell on road, but with such conditions they are going to cancel stage anyway like they do last years
mountain stages are dissapointing as usually on TDF but 65km on TDF stage? are you serious? races of 15 year old young cyclist have to be long like that, not of the profesional cyclist no matter that stage have almost 3000m climbed
next year I will not see TDF anyway because I will be in Columbia on bicycle but still I hoped for more hopefully Giro will bring me more satisfaction

 

[Axis]

5 is good, between good stuff and coarse errors.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Re:

Next significant problem: the opening of the race is absolutely execrable and couldn't be worse if they tried. I really despise this movement to try to make sure a complete one-trick pony of a sprinter like Kittel who openly admits he won't even try to defend the jersey if there's any obstacles gets a chance to wear the maillot jaune. Leading a GT is supposed to be an honour and when it's treated like a joke by the organizers, a free gift to riders who don't care because they already get a bazillion chances to win anyway, it erodes some of that prestige. Placing the only stage which could have any long term relevance in the opening section of the race on stage 3, so on a weekday, while we get two pan-flat sprints that are liable to produce absolutely zero memorable racing moments, is another piece of bizarre logic when you consider that the stage towns are close enough to one another that changing the order wouldn't have actually made too much of a difference. And anyway, why has "prologue" become a dirty word? I have no problem in fairness with the 10-15km ITTs used in 2009, 2015 and 2017, if anything in the days of marginal TTing they're better, but did you realise the last time the Tour opened with a prologue in France was 2006? 2012 had a prologue but was overseas, like in all of those other editions starting with ITTs, come to think of it. Cholet hosted a perfectly good 30km ITT in 2008, that would have been fine since 3 MTFs, an early Cholet TT and a late ITT would have matched 2008's format. Instead, we get a TTT which is longer than the only ITT in the race, and negates one of the only things that people are able to use to defend the format ("it looks cool") by putting it on a weekday when fewer people can see it (because heaven forfend we miss an exciting Marcel Kittel special). And as for the only other argument people put in favour of a TTT ("it forces more balanced selections of rouleurs and climbers"), that's rather negated by the inclusion of tougher rouleur stages that would necessitate a more balanced selection anyway, so the TTT serves no purpose other than its usual purpose, to ensure the strongest teams get a head start. Stage 4 is also utter mediocrity from the details given.

Finally, then, things start to improve. I don't agree with the interpretation of the Quimper stage that it's the hilliest week 1 stage since 2014; for one thing, we had a freaking Planche des Belles Filles MTF on stage 5 this year. The toughest climb noted in the profile is still only 3km @ 6,2%; the Bréton climbs are not real muritos, the stage is not as tough as Sheffield 2014 or Spa 2010 and this is going to be more like an easier Amstel Gold than anything else; obviously the Tour du Finistère is the clear precedent but perhaps the Sittard-Geleen Eneco/Binck-Bank stages are more what we ought to be looking at. There's real disappointment at no ribinou, but this also has a lot more potential for wind affecting the race than most races of comparable profile. This will be an interesting stage, but the y-axis makes people think the hills are going to be more selective than they are. Time gaps here won't be herculean unless it goes Paris-Nice stage 1 level bonkers which I don't expect in July, however if somebody gets it wrong they could rue their mistake for two and a half weeks. However, I can't really complain about the Mûr-de-Brétagne stage; the climb is becoming a predictable stop-off, so doing the double-climb with a finishing circuit (which is a rarity for the Tour compared to the Giro and Vuelta which seem much less fazed by circuits) is a good way to try to prevent it just being a final 2km shootout; I used that exact idea in a Tour route in the Race Design Thread, so while I don't have much love for the continual reuse of the same site, I am pleasantly surprised with what they're doing with it.

So, ASO punish me for my insolence with two straight garbage sprint stages, one of which is on a weekend, making it 3 sprints out of 3 on weekend stages. Awesome show, guys, great job. At least the Chartres stage is potentially going to suit a different kind of sprinter, with good distance, but it's pretty disappointing that the longest stage of the race is one where nothing will matter outside of the last 200m. Especially when the real rouleur's test, the second Sunday's cobbled odyssey, is only 150km long. Add another 30km (I don't want to be greedy) and we could be golden. The stage is already interesting, but I feel it pretty disappointing that we have to wait this long for a stage that the majority of cycling fans can watch live that will actually give them a justification for watching.

I think week one or the first nine stages are the key to make this Tour harder and more difficult to controll for Sky. Toughening the Pyrenees is one thing to do, but it won't change the character of the race.

Have a prologue or make the ttt an itt with 35-40k.

On one of the first stages you could include Passage du Gois, but not as a neutralized eye candy for the tv spectators. They are afraid of PdG since 1999. I can understand it, but why not try it again.

I really dislike stage 4. They inflated it to 192 kilometers, when it is actually 70 kilometers between those two villages. Drop stuff like that and make it real races like this proposed stage from legruppetto.com.

Between Brest and Mûr-de-Bretagne you can pack in 10 to 16 small climbs with ease and have 250 kilometers for some real classics racing.

Stages 7 and 8 are hard to improve. Between Fougères and Chartres you could have some smaller climbs into Parc Naturel Régional du Perche. Would have been more interesting with a stage finish in Alençon.

Stage 8 is flat whatsoever. You can't do a thing about it. Which is okay, if we change most of week 1 to a classics week.

I'm fine with stage 9. Of course you could go all in and let them do Mons-en-Pevele completely or add Carrefour de l'Arbre or Tressin à Chateau d'Hem :twisted: But yeah, it's a good stage.

 

[mikii4567]

Re: Re:

On one of the first stages you could include Passage du Gois, but not as a neutralized eye candy for the tv spectators. They are afraid of PdG since 1999. I can understand it, but why not try it again.

Can't this time - they wanted to at first, but then after the date change they discovered that it will be flooded because of high tide exactly at the moment they leave, so instead they have to use the bridge. It hosted the start in 2011.

 

[railxmig]

Re: Re:

I really dislike stage 4. They inflated it to 192 kilometers, when it is actually 70 kilometers between those two villages. Drop stuff like that and make it real races like this proposed stage from legruppetto.com.

I don't think it would work. The transfer between Cholet and la Baule is already significant and between Cholet and Sarzeau is roughly 170km. The problem with Sarzeau is... its mayor is (or was) a certain David Lappartient, who is now the chief of UCI, and from now on ASO will keep his less-respectable part of body as clean as possible (because nationalism i guess). If you want a tight transfer after a TTT, then there should be a place for Brest, while still having Sarzeau in the route... However, i guess Lappartient is only interested in a finish and he now has the power and money to force that.

 

[Forever The Best]

Any route that has more TTT kms than ITT kms doesn't deserve more than 4.

Positives:
Cobbles.
The stage to LGB. (the inclusion of Glieres as well)
The inclusion of Col du Pre.
MTF on Portet.
The stage to Laruns.
The Quimper stage.

Negatives:
30 km of ITT is way too low.
35 km of TTT is way too high.
Disappointing Grand Depart.
The Alpine stages in wrong order.
So many short stages. Especially the 65 km one is pathetic. What's this, Tour de l'Avenir?
The stages to Laruns and LGB could have been better. (Add Viscos-Luz Ardiden or Spandelles as a pass on the Laruns stage. And add Ramaz before Romme on LGB stage)
Alpe d' Huez as a MTF from the traditional side for the 7th time in 15 years. It could have been a great stage with Madeleine or Iseran-Telegraphe-Galibier-Sarenne.
The La Rosiere stage could have:
Option 1: climbed Arpettaz and Forclaz de Queige before Bisanne.
Option 2: climbed Saisies before Bisanne
Option 3: climbed Arpettaz and Saisies before Bisanne.
No Tro-Bro Leon roads which were rumoured for a long time.
The cobbles stage is very short as well. 154 km is way too low.

 

[Laplaz]

When will the full route + all stage details come out?

 

[rghysens]

Re:

When will the full route + all stage details come out?

Usually a month or so before the start (end may-begin june).