• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Rate The GC Contenders!

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
BroDeal said:
Schleck's major problem is a fixation on the Tour.

Off topic: Fully agreed there.

Do some Vuelta's, Giro's and focus on Lombardia and LBL and he would come out with a better palmares.

Only Spaniards and Italians seem to be able to ignore the TdF. In my eyes this TdF fixation severly hurt riders as Boogerd. That one just should have focussed on classics instead of trying to be the climber he never could become. He could have trained more on his sprint which wasn't as bad as he thought. Instead he tried to stay lean and mean for the GT. The result is two stages and a fourth place plus one Classic. Rather underwhelming.
 
Aug 6, 2009
1,901
1
0
Visit site
Franklin said:
LMAO... Good job ignoring Mr. Contadors TT past. God forbid he actually started as a TT talent. No really, his own words where I called himself starting out as TT focussed or his past palmares.. all crazy talk
LMAO... Good job ignoring Mr. Contadors climbing past. God forbid he actually started as a climbing talent. No really, he was nicknamed Pantani at the age of 15 (renowned TTlist right?) and his first victories as an amateur was Climbing jerseys. Was he a good TTlist from a fairly early age? Yes. Was he a TT specialist who developed climbing skills along the way. No. He was always a great climber also. Something you conveniently ignore, because your entire argument rests on the illusion that an all-rounder is the same as a TT specialist.

Franklin said:
Indeed the Mayo's, the Piepoli's, the flitty guys who had one-two good days are the ones dominating the GT. Uhm no, actually statistics flat out seem to deny that. But really, who cares about facts ^^
Yeah, what a shock, inferior riders don't win GTs. Newsflash, those rider are rarely stronger than the GT contenders, even for a day or two. They're just let go exactly because they're weaker.

Franklin said:
No really... I repeat, The Schleckette type will not win a GT. He wont magically get a TT talent. Whereas Cancelara probably won't win one either... but I say he has a better chance.
The Schlecklete type already has won GTs, far more often than the Cancellara type. Schlecklet himself might yet win one if he focusses something that Contador doesn't.

Franklin said:
Another nice statistic: the majority of mountain stages is won by different riders. The majority of TT's is won by GT winners.

All a coincidence of course;)

Jukebox said:
First, on TTs- The reason "different riders" don't win TTs as often is that there are no breakaways on TT stages. The GC guys don't all softpedal together for the first bit of the TT then hit it hard, everyone is at their maximum for the entire race.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
Cerberus said:
LMAO... Good job ignoring Mr. Contadors climbing past. God forbid he actually started as a climbing talent. No really, he was nicknamed Pantani at the age of 15 (renowned TTlist right?) and his first victories as an amateur was Climbing jerseys. Was he a good TTlist from a fairly early age? Yes. Was he a TT specialist who developed climbing skills along the way. No. He was always a great climber also. Something you conveniently ignore, because your entire argument rests on the illusion that an all-rounder is the same as a TT specialist.

Guess his wins just never happened. Indeed revisionist history Cerberus. too bad facts don't match it, but nice one :p

His first victory: In his first year as a professional he won the eighth stage of the Tour de Pologne, an individual time trial.

Not the climbing jersey which was just a year later.

But the second stage he won was *amazing* again an ITT. So far he's at 9 ITT's which is about one third of his stage wins.

I never said AC wasn't a good climber, but he was known in his first years primarily as TT specialist with great potential as a climber. He wasn't primarily a climber with great TT potential.

The Schlecklete type already has won GTs, far more often than the Cancellara type.

A complete and utter unfounded hogwash idea :p Sorry but truly, mediocre climbers with great TT skills won quite a few Gt's (Salvoldelli, Big Mig, Moser). Especially in the TdF it is extremely rare that a pure climber wins. Pantani (third in ITT, but sure I'll give him to you), Rasmussen, Sastre, thats it. Before Pantani we can rewind the clock till Delgado (who actually could TT just behind Fignon and Lemond), then another ten years to van Impe.

In fact you could about say that once in the ten years a pure, exceptional, climber manages to peak and win a TdF. All the other years a true all rounder wins.

On a related note: this muddy rainy stage definitely put the torch to the pure light climbers. The stronger guys pulled through. Strength>lightweight.

But yes, my prediction will be off, Sastre will crush everyone at the end :D
 
Aug 6, 2009
1,901
1
0
Visit site
Franklin said:
Guess his wins just never happened. Indeed revisionist history Cerberus. too bad facts don't match it, but nice one :p

His first victory: In his first year as a professional he won the eighth stage of the Tour de Pologne, an individual time trial.

Not the climbing jersey which was just a year later.

But the second stage he won was *amazing* again an ITT. So far he's at 9 ITT's which is about one third of his stage wins.

I never said AC wasn't a good climber, but he was known in his first years primarily as TT specialist with great potential as a climber. He wasn't primarily a climber with great TT potential.



A complete and utter unfounded hogwash idea :p Sorry but truly, mediocre climbers with great TT skills won quite a few Gt's (Salvoldelli, Big Mig, Moser). Especially in the TdF it is extremely rare that a pure climber wins. Pantani (third in ITT, but sure I'll give him to you), Rasmussen, Sastre, thats it. Before Pantani we can rewind the clock till Delgado (who actually could TT just behind Fignon and Lemond), then another ten years to van Impe.

In fact you could about say that once in the ten years a pure, exceptional, climber manages to peak and win a TdF. All the other years a true all rounder wins.

On a related note: this muddy rainy stage definitely put the torch to the pure light climbers. The stronger guys pulled through. Strength>lightweight.
I think the fact that you consider Indurain a mediocre climber tells everything that need to be said about the value of your opinions.
Franklin said:
But yes, my prediction will be off, Sastre will crush everyone at the end :D
Or my predictions will be off and Wiggins or Brent Bookwalter will win, after all they did best in the TT and that's what really counts apparently.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
Cerberus said:
I think the fact that you consider Indurain a mediocre climber tells everything that need to be said about the value of your opinions.

Indeed, he was the best climber of his generation^^ He was known to soar and dance away, letting the likes of Chiapucci hunt him down every mountain.

Mediocre climber is way to harsh for sure, but you get my point exactly.

Or my predictions will be off and Wiggins or Brent Bookwalter will win, after all they did best in the TT and that's what really counts apparently.

Sucks huh, that a rider as Wiggo is actually a very good GC contender whereas a climber like Piepoli just can win stages.

Serious Cerberus, I used some hyperbiole, but in the end the statistyics are so bloody undeniable: A GC winner is usually the best TTer and one of the best climbers. Also, you know exactly what I mean with a difference between a power climber and a pure climber. (say a Lemond and a Van Impe, or a Pantani and an Ulrich). The power climber wins in 90% of the cases. And not by a coincidence (truly the statistics are so clear about this...) these guys win the TT's.

I'm not saying this because I like it, it's just something which history and statistics flat-out point put. You can not deny it with an even face. A decent climber with great TT skills beats a great climber with decent TT skills, especially in the TdF.

Also, another statistics which is rather tough to deny: Someone who doesn't excel in the TT doesn't win more than one TdF. Whereas someone as Hinault and Indurain, who were definitely not the best climbers of thir gen.. well they won a bit more than one TdF.

Hate me, mock me, but the statistics are there. So yes, the schlekette type is wonderful! He will not win a GT though.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
Ferminal said:
He will not win the TdF, but I don't think you can rule him out of winning a Giro like this one.

I have severe doubts he can unless they completely scrap/marginalize flat TT's. The problem is that he will have to drop the better TTing people like a Menchov or an Evans. They might not climb as well as he does, but they are tough as nails and seldom get dropped.

And yes, I'll get a lot of crap about it, but even the most excellent climbers seldom manage it. There is no real reason to think Andy will fair better. Being second in a GT isn't the same as winning one.

So I sincerely doubt andy will ever win a GT. It's no coincidence that bruyneel worries about the same thing... his TT is the weak spot.

And about Miguel Indurain. Please don't try to argue he was the best climber of his generation... we all know he wasn't (he was good, yes), but he made it up by his TT.

Again, why can noone refute most GT's are won by people who win TT's? And why can noone refute that especially the people who win several GT's are dominating the TT?

It's because the facts as shown in the statistics make this out to be true...

I don't make it up, I just point out how cycling seems to work. The best climbers usually suck at TTing, so they tend to loose. And it's what is working against Sastre and Schleck. Sastre got lucky (in a sense that he was the right one at the right spot, I believe Frank Schleck could have won as well had he been the designated attacker), but he won't repeat it.

And opening myself up for ridicule: I say Spartacus stands a better chance to win a GT than Schleckette. Climbing seems to be a bit better trainable than TTing. And that's been proven by the likes of Kelly, Jalabert, Indurain, Wiggo and a few others. Climbers that learned to TT are a bit more rare. pantani comes to mind (third in flat final TT, Giro and TdF). Other than that I'm a bit lost for examples. Maybe Chicken counts? :eek:
 

TRENDING THREADS