Franklin said:
That's actually not true considering the likes of Ricco, Piepoli, Rujano, Andy Schleck etc can be seen as better climbers... during one-two days.
Several problems with that logic. First of all Contador isn't any bigger than for example Andy Schleck. Wikipedia has him at 4 kiloes lighter, their team webpages has him 5 kiloes lighter. I don't know exactly what makes him a better TT'er than Schelck, but it might just come down to a bigger motor and better aero posture, it's not because he's bigger.
Secondly Contador hasn't targeted 1-day races much so saying he's an inferior 1-day climber isn't really valid. In Rujano's case I don't even think that he has any decent 1-day results.
Thirdly the Climbs in one-day races are different from the climbs in GTs. They're much shorter. You can't assume that 1-day climbing is the same as GT climbing. Also I think that the pure one-day races are frequently bigger than the GT riders.
Franklin said:
Also, Ulrich and Flandis were great climbers, but generally you would say they were building around their TT. Flandis closed the deal in the TT.
Contador on the other hand is IMO a climber who can TT, not the other way around. As for Armstrong he was a good one day rider in the hilly classics before he could TT or climb real mountains.
Franklin said:
Pantani; all of a sudden the guy could TT (even better than the Chicken in 2007 or Sastre), he is quite a special case
![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
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He could TT, but not as well as Ulrich, he won on the mountains.
Franklin said:
And Marco lost out from LA due to... the TT.
Not quite true, the only one of the Armstrong Tours Pantani rode was 2000, and he dropped out due to stomach problems.
Franklin said:
Contador 2007: Well that was an insane TdF where there was no real favourite and where Chicken managed quite powerful TT's. I actually rank this one as a Pantani TdF where the chicken would have won. Note the drug paralel and a climber who out of the blue can crank out good TT's.
good, but not great, the fact remains that neither Rasmussen nor Contador were the strongest TTlist in that Tour. Even if you only count the contenders.
Franklin said:
I remain adamant in this: Sastre has a problem due to his TT, I remain doubtful he can win another GT. The Schlecks truly need to improve their TT or no GT for either of them.
Andy Schleck could probably win any GT that Contador didn't contend.
Franklin said:
And about before Indurain, name a TdF winner who didn't build around his TT. I'll help you as it's rare indeed: Delgado and Van Impe. For laughs look at their TT classifications in their best years. A solid TT is what defines a GT specialist, both in the past as in the future. A TT is simply the clearest comparison of strength.
I'm not old enough to remember any Tour winner before Indurain and the Internet has comparatively little info on older Tours.
Franklin said:
Once again, is it a coincidence that normally a GT winner wins the TT?
Coincidence? No, a strong TT helps, but strong climbing is an absolute requirement. A strong Climber with a weak TT (sastre or Schleck for example) is a contender and can sometimes even win a GT. A strong TTlist with weak climbing (say Cancellara) is not. The winner often wins a TT, but he also often wins a climbing stage and he almost always wins one if you sift away the non-contenders.
Franklin said:
This is a big hurdle for the lightweight climbers. Sure the GT winner is generally the best all round climber, but that is exactly the point here: The light climbers are not winning, they are not stable enough. Squeezing more mountains in won't change that a bit.
Contador weights 61-62 kiloes according to Wikipedia and Astana's homepage and he won in 2009. How much lighter than that do you want? Andy Schleck weights 65-67 kiloes and he came in second. The year before Sastre won (60 kiloes) and Evans (68 kiloes) was the runner up. The year before it was Contador and Evans with Rasmussen (59 kiloes) as a (dis)honourable mention. So what do you mean by light climbers? It's clearly not the weight you're refereeing to.
Clearly the best GT riders are the ones that are great at both TT and Climbing, but if you have to choose climbing is clearly the most important.