RE: transgender women racing against women.

[Extinction]

This is a whataboutery argument but if that's how you feel, why did you involve yourself in it? Or even bother posting on a cycling forum?

Because I think it is important to gain some perspective. It's like since the one-thought paradigm that has of convenience gained the narrative in the affluent world, in order to not address the elephant in the living room, has pivoted away from actually being concerned with the plight of the majority of humans on the planet (7 billion to 1 billion) to, in an exculpatory way, become excessively concerned with the difficulties of a few, which even creates injustice for a whole other category.

PS. And I say this with no animosity towards those who have felt the need to undergo surgery and hormonal therapy to conform to the gender of sentiment, which is a priviledge afforded by science. However, to then demand to compete in the feminine born category is hubris.

 

[ExperienPT]

I think there are differences between gender and sex. A transgender woman is a woman gender-wise, cause they identify themselves with the woman gender, it is a social construct, and we must respect that. Someone who doesn't respect the need of others to be as they want and like, when that someone is not impacting anyone's right to be free and not doing any damage to anyone, had some psychological problems themselves (see a therapist, really!).

But the sex to whom they were born was male, and males and females (sex), have many differences not only testosterone, like bone structure that permits them (males) to run faster and be stronger and them (females) to give birth.

We are an evolved civilization, and we should not discriminate against someone who has a difficult life, borning in the wrong body, feeling different, defective, unloved, and full of shame. Increasing their suffering! But are we doing the contrary by allowing them to participate advantageously in the woman (sex) category? And should female born females (sex) that had dedicated their lives to a sport be at a disadvantage cause another woman (gender) has not been born a woman (sex)?

So this is a dilemma, a big one, I sympathize a lot with the suffering of trans persons and want it to be the lowest possible (I'm a psychologist BTW and I have some trans clients), The problem is I don´t think it would be less discriminative what a woman (gender) would listen if they start dominating something like tennis, in fact, I think that woman would be in a lot of suffering and will feel completely unaccepted, unloved, defective being paradoxically worse to them being accepted as a woman (sex) in that sport.

To be a trans woman (gender) is not the same as being born a woman (sex), unfortunately.

And I think weighing the pros and cons that they (trans women) should get a distinctive category to for them to compete (even to protect them). Many people say there isn´t an advantage, but we are clearly seeing some trans women winning competitions in different sports, and then there are still to happen a trans man to win any male competitions, is not this a sign that there is an underlining advantage to be born a man (sex) competing in woman (sex) category?

 

[The GCW]

UCI halves testosterone threshold, doubles transition period for transgender women https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...bles-transition-period-for-transgender-women/

“The UCI will introduce stricter guidelines for transgender women's participation in the women’s category of cycling, halving the maximum plasma testosterone limit from 5mol/L to 2.5nmol/L and doubling the transition period from 12 to 24 months.”

 

[Unchained]

I would post something similar to my past surely but maybe repeating is ok..in the US we have most things separated. In baseball there is a cutoff that happens right before the neuromuscular changes in puberty..so boys and girls can play on a combined team w excellent outcomes both physically and emotionally.
In my experience coaching young and not so young athletes in baseball and bike racing..non medical determination of who is a female or male athlete would be crushing to most and would surely cause many athletes to quit all together.
In bike racing sex and age is a horrible physical and mental determinant to a racers success. A junior girl that shows up and has to race against women is demoralizing. In women's racing for years categories were combined because of small fields..so all the women race together..and many are dropped within the first lap or two and those getting door matted have their spirit crushed.
So if a young new racer( especially female) has to deal w what looks like a new wild card variable of having someone who has @90% of the characteristics of a grown man but is now identified as female racing against you..that may all just be too much. Don't know how you grow the sport,any sport wo clear,pretty easy to enforce rules..
So sounds like a high bar, but before you get a license..we may need include the question..have you always had\ been the same sex or gender and determine if you have hormone levels that exclude you from competing as one or the other..if a CAT 5 woman racer shows up looking like they have or recently had male levels of testosterone..that can't be worked out at the race,by anyone,anytime..
that may sound harsh but for the good of sport and it's growth,health,prosperity..how much testosterone is in a racer needs to be defined..before the race..in men's racing..it's not done often or random..only people who get results are subject to testing .
I don't see any of this as widespread and can't be worked out by event organization..people at baseball,basketball or bike racing events can't try to determine how much testosterone..or worse..what sex a competitor is..
I don't even know what that looks like..someone hands you a bike racing licence and it says female and the official says..no..or I don't believe you...man I don't want to be there

 

[Cookster15]

I assume everyone is aware of this. Seems inevitable?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-sports/swimming-makes-historic-decision-to-segregate-transgender-athletes/news-story/3832900944e167a1b19c817f35dfb7be

 

[The GCW]

Cookster15,
Thanks for posting that.
-It's not just cycling...

World swimming bans transgender athletes from women’s events

https://apnews.com/article/transgen...verning-body-c17e99d3121fa964336458b57ae266f7

Looking at the photo in that link helps understand why allowing men who have become women to race against those who have always been a women is just clearly wrong. -Women who have always been women will generally never develop muscle mass like that. Further, lowering testosterone levels doesn’t even begin to make any completion fair.

*Why are so many instances coming up with men who have become women, racing against women?

*Are there instances where money & fame is a factor due to what winners win (which can be huge and can amount to millions or billions of $’s)?

*If there are simply just many men athletes who have become women innocently wanting to compete in sports, then creating a new category for them is extremely appropriate and it would be revealing if they would reject that new category.

I’m cynical when male athletes decide to purchase a sex change and compete against females.

For what ever reason,!, citizens should have every right in the world to transition to what ever medical science is available to them, however, at the expense of other people is where a mile wide line should be drawn.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Cookster15,
Thanks for posting that.
-It's not just cycling...

In your conclusion, I am largely with you. If there is to be categorisation in sport (weight divisions in boxing, age segregation in many sports, separate female competition) it must because those in one category cannot compete with any meaningful chance of success against those in another. That is why we separate U18 events, but not U28; that there is such a thing as wheelchait tennis but not wheerchair chess; that we do not have a World Athletics Championships for people with surnames beginning A to L.
It is why sociological and personal identification sports categorisation is not valid: there is not a separate Tour de France for Muslims, nor a Wimbledon Tennis Championships for fans of Manchester United. If gender is a social construct, then it is not the basis for sporting classification.

But while our conclusions meet, our arguments do not:

*Why are so many instances coming up with men who have become women, racing against women?

So many? Name 5 at world level?
*

Are there instances where money & fame is a factor due to what winners win (which can be huge and can amount to millions or billions of $’s)?

Do you believe there are? Who are these female athletes that won billions of $s? How many female athletes outearn their male equivalents?

I’m cynical when male athletes decide to purchase a sex change and compete against females.

I find it very hard to talk in terms of people going through such extreme physical, social and psychological trauma as a "purchase": that is frankly glib and insulting.
I cannot imagine anyone doing all that simply to compete in a sport: have you any reasoned argument or evidence to suggest that anyone has done so, or expressed a meaningful intent so to do?

 

[Extinction]

In your conclusion, I am largely with you. If there is to be categorisation in sport (weight divisions in boxing, age segregation in many sports, separate female competition) it must because those in one category cannot compete with any meaningful chance of success against those in another. That is why we separate U18 events, but not U28; that there is such a thing as wheelchait tennis but not wheerchair chess; that we do not have a World Athletics Championships for people with surnames beginning A to L.
It is why sociological and personal identification sports categorisation is not valid: there is not a separate Tour de France for Muslims, nor a Wimbledon Tennis Championships for fans of Manchester United. If gender is a social construct, then it is not the basis for sporting classification.

But while our conclusions meet, our arguments do not:

So many? Name 5 at world level?
*
Do you believe there are? Who are these female athletes that won billions of $s? How many female athletes outearn their male equivalents?



I find it very hard to talk in terms of people going through such extreme physical, social and psychological trauma as a "purchase": that is frankly glib and insulting.
I cannot imagine anyone doing all that simply to compete in a sport: have you any reasoned argument or evidence to suggest that anyone has done so, or expressed a meaningful intent so to do?

Once there were eunuchs.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Once there were eunuchs.

Is that meant to be a response to anything that moves a discussion forward?

 

[Extinction]

Is that meant to be a response to anything that moves a discussion forward?

Indeed, it's meant to gain some perspective. We know gender isn't true and that it's just thrown out there to create division in the ongoing cultural war between so-called enlightened society and so-called cretins. The result is now only LGBT+ have rights. The majority of females who want to compete with just females not so much. So let them compete with eunuchs. It would be no less ridicilous.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Really don't see how you are arguing that "now only LGBT+ have rights" (presumably you are referring to the T element of that) in the light of regulation changes this week in swimming, cycling and rugby league. Please explain how your rights have been impacted.

 

[King Boonen]

Mod hat on:


We've decided that this thread has run it's course. The discussions are getting circular and they are moving very close to being outright phobia, if they haven't got there already. If you wish to continue these types of discussions it'll have to be somewhere other than these forums.

Cheers,

KB.