Reactions from the peloton

[D-Queued]

It's curious too, isn't it, that Will doesn't go further? Omerta at work again?

Not many people say what everyone else is thinking - very rarely in my experience.

Let's say he did spill the beans, fully. Do you think the personal ramifications would outstrip the good it would do, given the limited scope of his experience and racing level?

What avenue does Will have to really come clean?

Good question. Not much of an avenue really. Will has really gone above and beyond.

His statement is incredibly powerful.

But, it likely came at the urging not only of friends and family, or even some teammates, but also from the CCA.

Poor Canadians. Victims of doping. With so few riders, they barely count out there.

And, Canadians would never dope. Right Ben? Ok, he isn't a cyclist.

Right Shep? Right Genevieve?

Ok, one of those exited in disgrace. The other?

Still described as one of the most accomplished mountain bikers in Canadian History and still racing.

Still racing after a supposedly desperate flirtation with EPO when his/her career was supposedly over.

Like Will, I call bullsh!t. And, I call bullsh!t on Canadian Cycling for not coming clean and for promoting known dopers whilst shielding others.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

...

Fail, however, for perpetuating a lie:"There are more anti-doping controls in cycling than in any other sport"

Just as Lance is NOT the most tested athlete, Cycling is NOT the most tested sport.

...

If Will wants to come clean, he needs to come completely clean.

Dave.

Will's letter was just amazing. So apologies from me.

Apologies for quoting myself.

Apologies for getting stuck on this point, and harping about it.

But, all of that amazing statement and Will perpetuates a lie that he absolutely knows is a distortion. And, it really hurts his plea.

As a Canadian, his national ADA is CCES (Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport). Will absolutely knows who they are.

And, their testing statistics are easily found on the Internet. Just like WADA's testing statistics.

In Canada, not only do sports like Athletics and Swimming regularly have more tests than cycling, but so too do sports like Canoe/Kayak.

On a per athlete basis, Canoe/Kayak must have orders of magnitude more testing than cycling.

Imagine what they are saying about doping lies and liars.

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Will's letter was just amazing. So apologies from me.

Apologies for quoting myself.

Apologies for getting stuck on this point, and harping about it.

But, all of that amazing statement and Will perpetuates a lie that he absolutely knows is a distortion. And, it really hurts his plea.

As a Canadian, his national ADA is CCES (Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport). Will absolutely knows who they are.

And, their testing statistics are easily found on the Internet. Just like WADA's testing statistics.

In Canada, not only do sports like Athletics and Swimming regularly have more tests than cycling, but so too do sports like Canoe/Kayak.

On a per athlete basis, Canoe/Kayak must have orders of magnitude more testing than cycling.

Imagine what they are saying about doping lies and liars.

Dave.

You really have missed the point of his article.

There were no moans of poor Canada - in fact the first person he mentions is Barry and he is pretty scathing about the carding system in Canada.

He got the testing stats wrong - big wow - it had little to do with the paragraph and had nothing to do with his overall point that some riders competed clean and that those who who choose to dope can't use the excuse of everyone was doing it.

 

[DominicDecoco]

If the riders are in doubts of how to react when questioned. Look for Kittel. He's got it all figured out.

 

[momotaro]

Huge kudos for a strongly worded statement, and for calling "bullsh*t".

And, Will is right, there were notable battles between Symmetrics and Navigators. Yet, though at least one Navigator was banned for life and his results disqualified, there was no apology.

Fail, however, for perpetuating a lie:"There are more anti-doping controls in cycling than in any other sport"

Just as Lance is NOT the most tested athlete, Cycling is NOT the most tested sport.

"...the International Ice-Hockey Federation carried out 6,065 out-of-competition anti-doping tests in 2009. According to a Reuters report on Tuesday, cycling carried out slightly more than half that number of out-of-competition blood tests - 3,314 - in 2011 whilst the international tennis federation, according to its website, carried out just 21."

Fail also for this: "Me and many of my original teammates have never had to look over our shoulders"

Many. Notably not all. I can think of one or two that might owe some apologies to some folks.

If Will wants to come clean, he needs to come completely clean.

Dave.

Ok you have stumped me Dave, or perhaps I am too far out of the game. Who from Spidertech or Symmetrics is known to be charging? I don't know the Qc guys as well as the west coast guys, but I never suspected.........

 

[dougvdh]

Fail, however, for perpetuating a lie: . . . .

Just as Lance is NOT the most tested athlete, Cycling is NOT the most tested sport.

"...the International Ice-Hockey Federation carried out 6,065 out-of-competition anti-doping tests in 2009. According to a Reuters report on Tuesday, cycling carried out slightly more than half that number of out-of-competition blood tests - 3,314 - in 2011 whilst the international tennis federation, according to its website, carried out just 21."

. . .

Not to get into the specifics of whether cycling is the most tested sport or not (it clearly has a more rigorous testing protocol than many sports), but the quote about IIHF is comparing total OoC tests (blood and urine) to cycling's OoC Blood tests. If you include all OoC cycling tests I wonder where the stats stand?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not to get into the specifics of whether cycling is the most tested sport or not (it clearly has a more rigorous testing protocol than many sports), but the quote about IIHF is comparing total OoC tests (blood and urine) to cycling's OoC Blood tests. If you include all OoC cycling tests I wonder where the stats stand?

As well as compare the number of hockey players in the registered testing pool vs cycling.

 

[D-Queued]

You really have missed the point of his article.

There were no moans of poor Canada - in fact the first person he mentions is Barry and he is pretty scathing about the carding system in Canada.

He got the testing stats wrong - big wow - it had little to do with the paragraph and had nothing to do with his overall point that some riders competed clean and that those who who choose to dope can't use the excuse of everyone was doing it.

It is always possible that I missed the point.

Which point? National C carded athlete (carded, but no dough)? Toughest sport he has ever competed in? His first World Championships... ? Which point?

There was an inferred criticism of a national program that allows dopers to take slots.

One of my points, or more than one, was related to this same national program. This is the point about a national program that cries poor me, we have no influence.

Yet, this is the same national program that Will is indirectly complaining about noting dopers took a slot (or two...).

If dopers took slots, they who is he talking about?

Forget about suspected dopers, how many known dopers have represented Canada? Any known dopers represent Canada after an AAF?

Is it possible the CCA looks the other way?

Ok you have stumped me Dave, or perhaps I am too far out of the game. Who from Spidertech or Symmetrics is known to be charging? I don't know the Qc guys as well as the west coast guys, but I never suspected.........

Ever see or hear of any 'unbelievable' performances?

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Curious.. ..

Routley also goes on to support a zero-tolerance policy toward dopers. "It is so common that a former doper becomes the authority on how to be a clean rider, but in my estimation this is totally backwards. A cheater cannot tell a young kid how to race clean, because he has never done so," he wrote.

 

[Adamastor]

Patrice Clerc in Le Monde

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/sport/arti...e-a-besoin-d-une-revolution_1779870_3242.html

Sorry if already posted, but very good interview with former ASO president after Mcquaid's press conference.

Confirms he was kicked out of ASO the day the organisation decided to get closer with UCI "it was an industrial decision". Excellent viewpoints.

Clerc - Bordry - Ressiot
3 victims of the rotten system

 

[hiero2]

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/sport/arti...e-a-besoin-d-une-revolution_1779870_3242.html

Sorry if already posted, but very good interview with former ASO president after Mcquaid's press conference.

Confirms he was kicked out of ASO the day the organisation decided to get closer with UCI "it was an industrial decision". Excellent viewpoints.

Clerc - Bordry - Ressiot
3 victims of the rotten system

Excellent interview - I wish I had a better translation than Google, although Google is sufficient to understand the majority of the text.

Again, a voice that tells us the UCI must die for cycling to be reborn. McQuaid has got to go.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ever see or hear of any 'unbelievable' performances?

You mean there's code words the jounos use to express disbelief at a rider's new found form?

 

[hiero2]

Routley also goes on to support a zero-tolerance policy toward dopers. "It is so common that a former doper becomes the authority on how to be a clean rider, but in my estimation this is totally backwards. A cheater cannot tell a young kid how to race clean, because he has never done so," he wrote.

Curious.. ..

Two major problems here. One. The statement is not attributed. Who the hell is Routley? Where did the quote come from?

Second. Whoever Routley is, they are totally in error. " . . . because he has never done so . . ." is complete rubbish. That would mean the doper had doped, intentionally, as a child beginner in the world of competition. Nonsense. Bad logic based on a flawed premise.

I THINK that might have been your point. However, just can't tell from this snippet you give us. Routley is misguided, at best, regarding zero-tolerance. That this quote is unattributed is also, ahem, unfortunate.

 

[hiero2]

You mean there's code words the jounos use to express disbelief at a rider's new found form?

Hehehehe! Yes, I've been listening to "those code words" all year!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Two major problems here. One. The statement is not attributed. Who the hell is Routley? Where did the quote come from?

Second. Whoever Routley is, they are totally in error. " . . . because he has never done so . . ." is complete rubbish. That would mean the doper had doped, intentionally, as a child beginner in the world of competition. Nonsense. Bad logic based on a flawed premise.

I THINK that might have been your point. However, just can't tell from this snippet you give us. Routley is misguided, at best, regarding zero-tolerance. That this quote is unattributed is also, ahem, unfortunate.

Apologies. Given 95% of the last page of this thread was devoted to Will Routley, who had a very recent CN interview, I expected context to provide the clues. I am usually very regular with attributions. I will endeavour to keep up my good run.

I think he's specifically talking WT, and specifically riders who doped in the WT, after pointing out the fallacy that they doped then voluntarily stopped doping, even though their doped vs undoped performances remained largely unchanged as being the people who cannot show someone how to race in the WT undoped because they didn't actually do it. Whilst pedantically incorrect, I get what he is saying.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Re: Routley

Once again, The Clinic misses the forest for the trees...

You have a clean rider vilifying doping, and the first response is to see what teammates he was excluding with his 'most of' statement.

These are the guys to glorify!

Currently in the peloton, racing hard, and speaking out.

Maybe it would be better to bite our tongues and wait until the criminally-minded peloton pushes him out entirely... (although, since he's not a Euro, he won't have the legacy Bassons did).

Is that what you want?

Investigate your motives, that's all I ask. WHAT ARE YOUR MOTIVES?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Whilst pedantically incorrect, I get what he is saying.

Sweet Jeebus - It's not a philosophy thread. Nor is it a grammar lesson...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sweet Jeebus - It's not a philosophy thread. Nor is it a grammar lesson...

Hey buddy step back a bit. Hiero disagreed with the quote I posted from Will.

I agree with the quote I posted from Will - and ONLY agreed with Hiero2's disagreement on the grounds that you be completely and utterly pedantic - where Hiero2 is correct - but BUT finish by saying I get what Will is saying. ie I understand. I expand on that understanding in a subsequent post.

To wit: get rid of the ex-dopers, they are in the wrong place. I have to be careful how hard I push that as I am already considered anti-JV (even though I am in fact anti-lying, and not anti-anyone).

For me, Will's post is the first time someone is saying something as an alleged non-doper that I actually believe.

And this includes McGee's various articles about the place.

Fully 100% agreement with you that Will should be lauded and applauded.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Hey buddy step back a bit. Hiero disagreed with the quote I posted from Will.

I agree with the quote I posted from Will - and ONLY agreed with Hiero2's disagreement on the grounds that you be completely and utterly pedantic - where Hiero2 is correct - but BUT finish by saying I get what Will is saying. ie I understand. I expand on that understanding in a subsequent post.

To wit: get rid of the ex-dopers, they are in the wrong place. I have to be careful how hard I push that as I am already considered anti-JV (even though I am anti-lying, and not anti-anyone).

For me, Will's post is the first time someone is saying something as an alleged non-doper that I actually believe.

And this includes McGee's various articles about the place.

Fully 100% agreement with you that Will should be lauded and applauded.

Hey Wiggs;

Not picking on you, just noticing that there seems to be a self-destructive motif going on (not only here, but re Sky et al).

How about a deep breath, pause on the hating, and get some lauding going on.

What Routley said resonated with my own attitude about the dopers coming clean.

F*ck 'em. They knew what they were doing. They knew they were f*cking riders out of spots on teams. They knew what they were doing was illegal, and EVERYONE of them shut the f*ck up untill the reaper came knocking.

Interesting times ahead...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is always possible that I missed the point.

Which point? National C carded athlete (carded, but no dough)? Toughest sport he has ever competed in? His first World Championships... ? Which point?

There was an inferred criticism of a national program that allows dopers to take slots.

One of my points, or more than one, was related to this same national program. This is the point about a national program that cries poor me, we have no influence.

Yet, this is the same national program that Will is indirectly complaining about noting dopers took a slot (or two...).

If dopers took slots, they who is he talking about?

Forget about suspected dopers, how many known dopers have represented Canada? Any known dopers represent Canada after an AAF?

Is it possible the CCA looks the other way?



Ever see or hear of any 'unbelievable' performances?

Dave.

The point was he is clean and frustrated when those caught then say they "had no choice" because "everyone was doing it".

The rest was about his experiences as a clean athlete.
He mentioned Barry by name - but again he is telling HIS story.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Interesting times ahead...

A rumour going around that Ferrari of the Michele variety is going to cooperate with the authorities.

I don't believe in unicorns either, but if he has anything to protect, and can be coerced in that general direction, then we might even see a unicorn in the coming months.

Interesting times indeed....

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

A rumour going around that Ferrari of the Michele variety is going to cooperate with the authorities.

I don't believe in unicorns either, but if he has anything to protect, and can be coerced in that general direction, then we might even see a unicorn in the coming months.

Interesting times indeed....

But I swear to god, they do poop cupcakes...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But I swear to god, they do poop cupcakes...

As I have tweeted on a number of occassions now. Are you the originator of this little know and less publicised fact?

Also, a hearty el oh el to your claim of pastry passing by horned, equestrian mammals.

 

[Tinman]

Shrimp, agree on lauding Routley.

Would be too much to ask for our real pro-peloton leaders (thinking Cadel & Wiggo, and how about Spartacus...) - who would like us to believe they are clean - to make similar/supporting statements? Not necessarily about the past (we understand you don't want to nail your "other" team mates) but at least about the future?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Shrimp, agree on lauding Routley.

Would be too much to ask for our real pro-peloton leaders (thinking Cadel & Wiggo, and how about Spartacus...) - who would like us to believe they are clean - to make similar/supporting statements? Not necessarily about the past (we understand you don't want to nail your "other" team mates) but at least about the future?

Omerta lives...

That's why I love finding the comments from the up-and-comers.

We want to change cycling? Look at the young-guns speaking out!

They have the b*lls I didn't have, and good on them for that.

Any comments from the current peloton are manifestly clouded in the past, as they should be. The current run of riders saying they were "forced into it" is utter BS.

Laud the second-tier riders grinding it out, trying to make a living under this cloud...

Good on them.