Real performance gains and modelling

[FrankDay]

They say increased muscle recruitment not utilising different muscles.

How, pray tell, is is possible to increase VO2max without "recruiting" more muscles into the activity?

 

[acoggan]

How, pray tell, is is possible to increase VO2max without "recruiting" more muscles into the activity?

VO2max is not limited by muscle recruitment. This is demonstrated, e.g., by the fact that if someone who is running uphill on a treadmill at VO2max begins to also exercise with their arms, their VO2 does not increase further.

 

[acoggan]

...apart from the lack of a control group, what procedural issues does the Dixon study have that would make it invalid...

How can that question be answered, since the study was never published?

 

[FrankDay]

How can that question be answered, since the study was never published?

You could communicate with the authors.

 

[FrankDay]

VO2max is not limited by muscle recruitment. This is demonstrated, e.g., by the fact that if someone who is running uphill on a treadmill at VO2max begins to also exercise with their arms, their VO2 does not increase further.

Huh? If one is at VO2 max the local environment is deteriorating so rapidly, interfering with muscle function, that adding new "fresh" muscle is unlikely to increase oxygen uptake in the short term that could be measured.

There is a reason that rowers and XC skiers test higher VO2max on average than cyclists.

 

[CoachFergie]

Defeats the purpose of science; to get the information out there. If the authors had done a better job in the first place it would have been published. Having discussions with potential supervisors for my Master's thesis they only appear interested in work that will lead to publication.

 

[FrankDay]

Defeats the purpose of science; to get the information out there. If the authors had done a better job in the first place it would have been published. Having discussions with potential supervisors for my Master's thesis they only appear interested in work that will lead to publication.

If you ever go to a scientific meeting I suggest you simply ignore the poster presentations. They must all be worthless because not a single one is going to be published.

 

[CoachFergie]

If you ever go to a scientific meeting I suggest you simply ignore the poster presentations. They must all be worthless because not a single one is going to be published.

Many do. They must be the good ones.

 

[blutto]

Defeats the purpose of science; to get the information out there. If the authors had done a better job in the first place it would have been published. Having discussions with potential supervisors for my Master's thesis they only appear interested in work that will lead to publication.

...what self-serving poppy-k0ck...where do you pull this stuff out of....errr, never mind ,I think I know...

...and before I go, a few questions...first, are your eyes brown...and two, do you occasionally get a brown line on your forehead...inquiring minds need to know...

Cheers

blutto

 

[blutto]

How can that question be answered, since the study was never published?

...well someone in the post that was attached to my comment was making statements about the veracity of the study...and since the lack of a control group does not in and of itself invalidate a study I was wondering what other issues the study may have had to make it appear in the eyes of said poster to be useless...

...so I assumed for someone to make a claim such as that, the poster would have had to actually read it....that is a safe assumption to have, in view of the circumstances, is it not?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Rip:30]

...what self-serving poppy-k0ck...where do you pull this stuff out of....errr, never mind ,I think I know...

...and before I go, a few questions...first, are your eyes brown...and two, do you occasionally get a brown line on your forehead...inquiring minds need to know...

Cheers

blutto

 

[CoachFergie]

I see in Marathon that women can only set a World Record in woman only competition. In Kona do the women start separate from the men or do they all start together? Would definitely affect the result. We have a local road race series where the women start with the men and some of the men if they know they can't foot it at the front of the race drop back and support their female team mates.

I expect the same for age group competition if they all start at the same time or close to each other. Big advantage having others close by. I won a Bronze medal in a U19 TT in 1988 ahead of several better U19s because two Elite riders passed me and while I didn't draft off them I did pace off them.

Fortunate in cycling we have valid and reliable performance measures when so many confounding variables can affect the result. Better days for competition (like Kona was this year on the bike), different course, different weather, different competition etc.

 

[Boeing]

i hope you spend as much time telling your so called students that you are a coach as much as you do telling us you are

new nickname CoachPunter

See note below from Admin...

 

[180mmCrank]

i hope you spend as much time telling your so called students that you are a coach as much as you do telling us you are

new nickname CoachPunter

I am not going to delete this although I probably should. This is a classic example of straying from comments about the topic to commenting on the person posting the comments.

As frustrating as it can be having someone not see your point of view the rules of the game (this forum) are that you CAN object to the mesage but be careful not to shoot the messenger. AND I know it is not always easy to do one without the other.

Make sense? Please (any of you) drop me a note if you want more clarification (or even just let off steam!)

Terry
Admin

 

[FrankDay]

I am not going to delete this although I probably should. This is a classic example of straying from comments about the topic to commenting on the person posting the comments.

As frustrating as it can be having someone not see your point of view the rules of the game (this forum) are that you CAN object to the mesage but be careful not to shoot the messenger. AND I know it is not always easy to do one without the other.

Make sense? Please (any of you) drop me a note if you want more clarification (or even just let off steam!)

Terry
Admin

What on earth did post #35 of this thread have to do with this thread. If anyone rambles off topic and shoots messengers it would be …

 

[CoachFergie]

Happy to fill in the gaps for you Frank...

I see in Marathon that women can only set a World Record in woman only competition. In Kona do the women start separate from the men or do they all start together? Would definitely affect the result. We have a local road race series where the women start with the men and some of the men if they know they can't foot it at the front of the race drop back and support their female team mates.

When preparing a rider for any event one needs to know the demands. Part of that will the competition. In Kona does an Elite Woman race by herself like the men do or do they have the men or age groupers in close proximity. This will affect the nature of racing. In Marathon they no longer award a World Record for times set in mixed start events.

Based on measurement of female riders in both mixed and woman's only races there is a different power profile so we need to take into account different demands when preparing riders for each.

Fortunate in cycling we have valid and reliable performance measures when so many confounding variables can affect the result. Better days for competition (like Kona was this year on the bike), different course, different weather, different competition etc.

I use a power meter to assess the demands of competition. I use a power meter to keep a track of the work load and to ensure the training matches the demands of the event and on race day to assess the physical performance. I could just settle for looking at results but weather, competition, the course and tactics can all play a huge role in the outcome.

HTH

 

[FrankDay]

Happy to fill in the gaps for you Frank...



When preparing a rider for any event one needs to know the demands. Part of that will the competition. In Kona does an Elite Woman race by herself like the men do or do they have the men or age groupers in close proximity. This will affect the nature of racing. In Marathon they no longer award a World Record for times set in mixed start events.

Based on measurement of female riders in both mixed and woman's only races there is a different power profile so we need to take into account different demands when preparing riders for each.

If you actually knew anything about the race you wouldn't have bothered to waste the bandwidth with that question. The race, of course, has a history and that issue was dealt with several years ago. You, of course, know what you know. Perhaps you should refrain from posting about stuff you don't (which seems to be plenty).

 

[CoachFergie]

If you actually knew anything about the race you wouldn't have bothered to waste the bandwidth with that question. The race, of course, has a history and that issue was dealt with several years ago. You, of course, know what you know. Perhaps you should refrain from posting about stuff you don't (which seems to be plenty).

Resorting to personal attacks rather than admit it's what every good coach does. "So Frank Day"

Ascertain the demands of competition, measure the athletes, develop and monitor the training process and on race day try and meet or exceed those demands and use relevant performance measures because any good coach knows there is more to a race than the result sheet.

Huge fluctuations of the times for the top 5 male athletes on the bike section of Kona since 1994. Only a fool would think they know the course on any given day. Why do you think Lance Armstrong rode the major climbs and time trial sections of the Tour up to 10 times and rode the entire course in 2004 before his most dominant win. Andy Schleck's capitulation in this years tour was based on a career worst time trial on a course he had never ridden. Stage Winner and Overall Winner Martin and Evans had both raced on the course earlier in the year.

 

[180mmCrank]

Ok - so last chance before I start giving folk a short break from posting.

STOP

Keep this thread to discussing the issues. If a poster states something that you don't agree with by all means challenge the statement do not call the poster names!

It's not that hard.

 

[oldborn]

i hope you spend as much time telling your so called students that you are a coach as much as you do telling us you are

new nickname CoachPunter

See note below from Admin...

I think that Kona dude did well.
Maybe I am sucks in English but never heard Punter word before, what exactly this word means in Oxford English? Anyone.
Thanks!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

If you actually knew anything about the race you wouldn't have bothered to waste the bandwidth with that question. The race, of course, has a history and that issue was dealt with several years ago. You, of course, know what you know. Perhaps you should refrain from posting about stuff you don't (which seems to be plenty).

Like some who post about the demands in crits and track racing perhaps?

 

[CoachFergie]

Like some who post about the demands in crits and track racing perhaps?

The whole point of asking the question was missed in the first place. Comes back to the difference between results and performances. In Kona results in the women's and age group sections results can be affected by other competitors on the course. Same as the Marathon. Hence the Woman's WR in Marathon can only be set in Woman's only racing.

How does one prepare for an event if you don't understand the demands of the event?

 

[FrankDay]

The whole point of asking the question was missed in the first place. Comes back to the difference between results and performances. In Kona results in the women's and age group sections results can be affected by other competitors on the course. Same as the Marathon. Hence the Woman's WR in Marathon can only be set in Woman's only racing.

How does one prepare for an event if you don't understand the demands of the event?

Fergie, a few years back they changed the start for the pros to 15 then 30 minutes ahead of the age groupers. This was because the better women swimmers thought it was "unfair" that the slower women pros in the swim could get a draft off of the fast age-group men on the bike. Plus some of the women were getting beat to a pulp by some of the more aggressive age-group men trying to get the glory of being first out of the water.

On multi-loop courses (Kona is not a multi-loop course) it also affects all the pros as they find themselves having to weave through slower bikers and runners later in the race.

Anyhow, Ironman triathlon has traditionally raced men and women together (ITU is a different story) on the same course and same time as the age-groupers. So, a WR is what they say it is, not what you think it should be.

 

[CoachFergie]

So, a WR is what they say it is, not what you think it should be.

And I have no issue with that. Marathon has different rules.

There will be different demands on the day for the top men competing at the head of the race as the women with the slower men and age group athletes.

This makes comparison of times, especially from year to year, less effective as a performance measure.

 

[CoachFergie]

3 examples of how my power meter earns it's keep...

1. Did a MAP test and after a winter of study and coaching the form is pretty average. Compared to my recent (last 6 years) PB of 366 watts I am sitting at 309 watts. In that test 3 years ago leading into NZ track nationals I achieved a maximal heart rate of 195bpm and yesterday got up to 197bpm. So increased heart rate doesn't equal increased power.

2. While I am testing a Power2Max power meter for the Oceania Supplier I have loaned my Powertap to a friend. She tried training with by heart rate but didn't find it that effective (heart rate lag on shorter efforts and cardiac drift on longer efforts), she tried training by feel but has nothing to judge what she is meant to be feeling. She will use the Powertap for a few rides to calibrate what she is meant to experience at different training levels.

3. I coach a rider who wins everything. If I go by results how do I quantify improvements if he always places first. Times are affected by the competition and environment. Judging how much he beats the competition by is problematic if they have other goals, are in different training phases or just simply gave up when they knew they couldn't win. Via the power meter testing I know he is making real progress.