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Research on Belief in God

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Echoes said:
What can I say when some trolls are saying Nazis were Christians?
Dunno. You can try to tell the opposite if you're so sure?
Now. Since you seem to have gotten stuck to that, let me clarify a little: many Nazis (not everyone) were Christians. The long-term goal that Hrotha mentioned, that is that the Nazis were planning to "take over" the traditional Christianity, was indeed an attempt to create a slightly different Christian religion by changing pieces of the Bible and adding elements of the Nordic mithology (all of this clearly in order to justify their actions against the Jews). By what logic does this qualify them as atheists? At most you could call them pagans (because of their liking Nordic mithology).
Leaving aside that during Nazism the vast majority of the German (and Italian) population was Christian of course.
In Italy, despite Mussolini's well known atheism (pretty much the only key figure of the time you could really call atheist), the fascist had to come to terms with the Catholic church, otherwise they was never gonna hold power for long. The deal they signed with the Church is still in place, and nowadays is being quite criticised as it is economically most advantageous for the Vatican, which is very strange because, as you teach us, religious people aren't interested in money.

Echoes said:
I should have the humility to realize that I will never be able to speak louder then such people. They are too powerful. I as a truth-teller am too weak.
This is a written forum, no one can speak louder than the others.

EDIT: oh, before you start telling me that Hitler was atheist, no he wasn't.
 
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Eshnar said:
Dunno. You can try to tell the opposite if you're so sure?
Now. Since you seem to have gotten stuck to that, let me clarify a little: many Nazis (not everyone) were Christians. The long-term goal that Hrotha mentioned, that is that the Nazis were planning to "take over" the traditional Christianity, was indeed an attempt to create a slightly different Christian religion by changing pieces of the Bible and adding elements of the Nordic mithology (all of this clearly in order to justify their actions against the Jews). By what logic does this qualify them as atheists? At most you could call them pagans (because of their liking Nordic mithology).
Leaving aside that during Nazism the vast majority of the German (and Italian) population was Christian of course.
In Italy, despite Mussolini's well known atheism (pretty much the only key figure of the time you could really call atheist), the fascist had to come to terms with the Catholic church, otherwise they was never gonna hold power for long. The deal they signed with the Church is still in place, and nowadays is being quite criticised as it is economically most advantageous for the Vatican, which is very strange because, as you teach us, religious people aren't interested in money.


This is a written forum, no one can speak louder than the others.

EDIT: oh, before you start telling me that Hitler was atheist, no he wasn't.
The Nazi's (some) were into theosophy too. This explains why they were running around in Asia looking for their Aryan roots by measuring skulls and the like. The theosophists weren't entirely wrong actually as ruins in the shape of swastikas have been found in south east russia. The chinese (Huns) were talking about them as were the Indians as they appeared to have migrated south west. Who knows the mists of time. Interesting yes, worthy of going crazy over, no.

We'd all do better to think of ourselves as temporarily crystalized sunshine.:D
 
RetroActive said:
The Nazi's (some) were into theosophy too. This explains why they were running around in Asia looking for their Aryan roots by measuring skulls and the like. The theosophists weren't entirely wrong actually as ruins in the shape of swastikas have been found in south east russia. The chinese (Huns) were talking about them as were the Indians as they appeared to have migrated south west. Who knows the mists of time. Interesting yes, worthy of going crazy over, no.

We'd all do better to think of ourselves as temporarily crystalized sunshine.:D
Nazis as Indians, because that's from where their ancient sun symbol originally came.
 
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rhubroma said:
Nazis as Indians, because that's from where their ancient sun symbol originally came.
Maybe. Like I say they found some ruins recently and with the aid of various cultural writings, connecting the dots etc. the story gets a little clearer all the time. It might explain the Aryan invasion (into India) theory that comes into and out of focus all the time, this time from the north east. Interesting yes, certainly uncertain.:rolleyes:

The cross symbolism is all over the place in it's various forms. Symbol of the sun, the four seasons, the four cardinal directions, the four fixed points on the zodiac, the four elements (water, earth, air, fire) and man. 5 is the point in the middle, aether, life (think Pythagoras). It becomes trivial fairly quickly when one tries to pin it down.
 
aphronesis said:
Rather than consigned to martyrdom, shouldn't it be your duty to clarify the record and have it be a matter of civic responsibility rather than a vindication of your egoistic honor?
It's a weakness, I guess. I don't have the patience that the Christian-raised have. Besides I always the feeling that I am entering their game. There's been enough books published to get the real truth about this or that matter, all that is needed is curiosity.

Of course I can restore the truth that Nazis were mainly neo-pagans (Hitler, Göring,etc.) or atheists (Bormann), the two fitting very well, they planned to eradicate Christianism and the Church and Catholics across Europe were among the first to stand up against the regime, when most atheists/leftists entered into active collaboration. Besides on a cycling forum, we obviously should know about the Church's plan to rescue Jews, which Bartali was a part of ... But all this I won't tell.:eek: All they need is reading books and documentating !!

rhubroma said:
This would be just so much simpler, if you just defined exactly what it is you actually believe and then we can go from there.
Christian Catholic (which means believe in the 4 Gospels and Act of Apostles), vaguely Jesuit, vaguely Rousseauist and anti-Vatican II (traditionalist).

And more or less in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsTZQNf-BXE
 
RetroActive said:
Maybe. Like I say they found some ruins recently and with the aid of various cultural writings, connecting the dots etc. the story gets a little clearer all the time. It might explain the Aryan invasion (into India) theory that comes into and out of focus all the time, this time from the north east. Interesting yes, certainly uncertain.:rolleyes:

The cross symbolism is all over the place in it's various forms. Symbol of the sun, the four seasons, the four cardinal directions, the four fixed points on the zodiac, the four elements (water, earth, air, fire) and man. 5 is the point in the middle, aether, life (think Pythagoras). It becomes trivial fairly quickly when one tries to pin it down.
Ok, but I'm just trying to figure out why you are so animated by symbol. It's all there, take it for what it is, and let's move on. Esotericism only has a place within a political agenda, as your reference to Hitler makes clear.
 
rhubroma said:
Nazis as Indians, because that's from where their ancient sun symbol originally came.
True Aryans still live in Malana village in Himachal Pradesh, India. Their village is cut off from the world ( you have to climb a mountain path to reach it) and they considers all outsiders untouchables but not if you bring them medicines :p ;) :rolleyes: and they may or may not have the best hashish in the world :D
 
Echoes said:
What can I say when some trolls are saying Nazis were Christians? It just shows that such manipulators are prepared to anything, even the most disgusting lies to disqualify the opponent.
Yeah, such as when you said racism was a 19th century atheist invention :rolleyes:

You have no concept of history or life my friend. I don't see what you think crying "wah wah wah everyone is stupid and a troll apart from me" will achieve, or putting everyone cleverer than you on the ignore list, when everyone can see you are the one who is totally confused and has no idea about anything.
 
Zam_Olyas said:
True Aryans still live in Malana village in Himachal Pradesh, India. Their village is cut off from the world ( you have to climb a mountain path to reach it) and they considers all outsiders untouchables but not if you bring them medicines :p ;) :rolleyes: and they may or may not have the best hashish in the world :D
Moroccan may or may not be.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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rhubroma said:
Ok, but I'm just trying to figure out why you are so animated by symbol. It's all there, take it for what it is, and let's move on. Esotericism only has a place within a political agenda, as your reference to Hitler makes clear.
I'm a visual artist so I'll play Goldmund to your Narcissus.:) Let's not forget that letters are symbols too. I understand you enjoy extrapolating the intellect in linear time through symbol, I get it. Consistency, subtlety, nuance within the maze of the mind. Where does the maze begin and end though? Aren't you seeking a way out also?

A picture is still worth a thousand words. I enjoy the irrationality of the creative process, my imagination. I don't think I'm alone. People still love to model their intellectual concepts, which are symbolic too. The symbols I'm referencing are a connection to the past and are cross cutural as they imbue principles that we still are subject to, however disturbing that may be.

I wonder if it's not the pure intellectualization of concepts without them referencing the larger reality of nature in a directly experiential way that wasn't the desacralization of nature that you attribute to Christianity. I view it as a gradual erosion myself, Descarte certainly played a role.

"Esotericism only has a place within a political agenda, as your reference to Hitler makes clear" That's not fair at all and I think you know it.;)
 
RetroActive said:
I'm a visual artist so I'll play Goldmund to your Narcissus.:) Let's not forget that letters are symbols too. I understand you enjoy extrapolating the intellect in linear time through symbol, I get it. Consistency, subtlety, nuance within the maze of the mind. Where does the maze begin and end though? Aren't you seeking a way out also?

A picture is still worth a thousand words. I enjoy the irrationality of the creative process, my imagination. I don't think I'm alone. People still love to model their intellectual concepts, which are symbolic too. The symbols I'm referencing are a connection to the past and are cross cutural as they imbue principles that we still are subject to, however disturbing that may be.

I wonder if it's not the pure intellectualization of concepts without them referencing the larger reality of nature in a directly experiential way that wasn't the desacralization of nature that you attribute to Christianity. I view it as a gradual erosion myself, Descarte certainly played a role.

"Esotericism only has a place within a political agenda, as your reference to Hitler makes clear" That's not fair at all and I think you know it.;)
No, I think the desacralization of nature had everything to do with Christians being bound to a concept of transcendence. Byzantine art perfectly fulfilled such aesthetic requirements, as against those which propelled art among the classical Greeks, with its gold background glass mosaics: the light of God and God as the light of the world.
 
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rhubroma said:
No, I think the desacralization of nature had everything to do with Christians being bound to a concept of transcendence. Byzantine art fulfilled such aesthetic needs with its gold background glass mosaics: the light of God and God as the light of the world.
meh, I think civilisation had/has everything to do with the concept of transcedence. So we reach a point of disagreement. edit -The evidence is on my side, btw. If we're not trying to lift ourselves out of the dirt I don't know what we're doing. The ancients were focused on the interior and exterior of man, one as a reflection of the other. We've focused more on the exterior, largely in a practical, utilitarian way and take a pill for the sadness inside.

"the light of God and God as the light of the world" beautiful imagery, in a subject-object non dualistic way. Would you prefer a zen koan? Who makes the grass green?

We keep bumping up against the same intellectual impasse, there's no way around it. What are we going to do?
 
Jan 20, 2013
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RetroActive said:
Pure potential? Creative intention? The formless that creates all forms and into which all forms recede? God is, by definition undefinable as it is (in all form) and isn't. This is what makes atheism so much fun too. There is no God! OK, what's new. God is beyond comprehension, unfathomable unity.
Pure potential, creative intention I'm not going to say who that reminds me of. Suffice to say, I don't think it is God..

“ God is everywhere, but is prone to extinction”. By Horsin.

We ran into the same conundrum or paradox when we studied the sub-atomic photon as well. It's a particle and a wave depending on the observer.:confused: Back to the drawing board, subject-object non dualism.
"if you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand quantum mechanics". Richard Feynman
Well, I don't understand quantum physics, save it is about tiny little things running around going bonkers.


It exposes the limits of "think" and there's no objective "mechanism" to identify.:confused:
Known in common terms as going ping! And disappearing up your own Jack-see. Or “Cognito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. Rene Descartes”.


God is identified as male for the same reason the sun (of God) is identified as male. The sun fertilizes the earth with it's light bringing forth new growth, life. Male plants his seed in female and she grows new life. Father/Mother/Child, (2) in relationship(3) create child(3 and 1). Say what you will but the ancients were keen observers and certainly not dumb.[/QUOTE

Well of all the ways I thought God being referred in the masculine was going to be responded to, this response was far from what I expected. I think this is very pagan, no? Probably back to nature and renewal is kind of a Christianity evolution. The rather unpleasant idea of renewal through sacrifice.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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RetroActive said:
Pure potential? Creative intention? The formless that creates all forms and into which all forms recede? God is, by definition undefinable as it is (in all form) and isn't. This is what makes atheism so much fun too. There is no God! OK, what's new. God is beyond comprehension, unfathomable unity.
Pure potential, creative intention I'm not going to say who that reminds me of. Suffice to say, I don't think it is God..

God is everywhere, but is prone to extinction.

We ran into the same conundrum or paradox when we studied the sub-atomic photon as well. It's a particle and a wave depending on the observer.:confused: Back to the drawing board, subject-object non dualism.
"if you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand quantum mechanics". Richard Feynman
Well, I don't understand quantum physics, save it is about tiny little things running around going bonkers.


It exposes the limits of "think" and there's no objective "mechanism" to identify.:confused:
Known in common terms as going ping! And disappearing up your own Jack-see. Or “Cognito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. Rene Descartes”.


God is identified as male for the same reason the sun (of God) is identified as male. The sun fertilizes the earth with it's light bringing forth new growth, life. Male plants his seed in female and she grows new life. Father/Mother/Child, (2) in relationship(3) create child(3 and 1). Say what you will but the ancients were keen observers and certainly not dumb.
Well of all the ways I thought God being referred in the masculine was going to be responded to, this response was far from what I expected. I think this is very pagan, no? Probably back to nature and renewal is kind of a Christianity evolution. The rather unpleasant idea of renewal through sacrifice.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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horsinabout said:
Pure potential, creative intention I'm not going to say who that reminds me of. Suffice to say, I don't think it is God..

God is everywhere, but is prone to extinction.



Well, I don't understand quantum physics, save it is about tiny little things running around going bonkers.

Known in common terms as going ping! And disappearing up your own Jack-see. Or “Cognito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. Rene Descartes”.




Well of all the ways I thought God being referred in the masculine was going to be responded to, this response was far from what I expected. I think this is very pagan, no? Probably back to nature and renewal is kind of a Christianity evolution. The rather unpleasant idea of renewal through sacrifice.
The particles aren't particles until we look for them as particles and then that potential is expressed as a particle.:D At that level things aren't things until you make them things. Crazy implications that we would rather avoid.

Pagan, barbarian, savage, whatever. All words to denote other, you as in not me.:)
 
RetroActive said:
meh, I think civilisation had/has everything to do with the concept of transcedence. So we reach a point of disagreement. edit -The evidence is on my side, btw. If we're not trying to lift ourselves out of the dirt I don't know what we're doing. The ancients were focused on the interior and exterior of man, one as a reflection of the other. We've focused more on the exterior, largely in a practical, utilitarian way and take a pill for the sadness inside.

"the light of God and God as the light of the world" beautiful imagery, in a subject-object non dualistic way. Would you prefer a zen koan? Who makes the grass green?

We keep bumping up against the same intellectual impasse, there's no way around it. What are we going to do?
Which evidence? Transcendence?
 
Jan 27, 2013
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rhubroma said:
Which evidence? Transcendence?
Call it testing limits, to grow beyond where we've previously been, to strive... Isn't that what we do in all sorts of ways? The spiritual traditions were more interested (esoterically) in their internal growth, consciousness. We're more literally materialistic in our preoccupation for growth, new knowledge, etc.

btw, having some awareness of the meaning of symbolism certainly makes walking around places like Rome or Paris a richer experience.
 
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rhubroma said:
Which evidence? Transcendence?
Ok, I'm going to do something stupid. Let's try to understand what we're actually talking about. What we're talking about is turning reason's attention to the inner experience. In my limited understanding what all this hoopla is about in a grossly oversimplified way is this:

Using a ruler of intention, scales to weigh choice and responsibility and a compass to circumscribe reason along with the world as the model of the macrocosm that relates in principal, function and process to the microcosom within, one begins at the beginning. Base instinct, the urge to merge. Then emotions, desire, communication, the five senses, intuition and imagination, logic and self consistency, it's really an exercise in self discipline. After analysis of all these things (and much more) in their extremes, reducing them down to their essentials in experience, confronting all fears and associations one's adopted and applying the ruler of intention, weighing it all on the scales of choice and responsibilty and circumscribed it all with reason, recognizing in essence the principals, functions and processes within and without, then comes the big fear; Death, which is time. After tackling that fear and illuminated oneself with understanding, self awareness, the only opposition left is the tool which has circumscribed it all, the compass of reason. Reason, in recognizing that all opposition is contained within itself now, confronts itself with paradox. This was traditionally represented in the macrocosm as space, a negation, the formless void from which all things emerge and into which all things return. Silence presents a similar paradox within. So somehow one has to fold up the compass and go home. We all know that home is where the heart is...the center of all things...and that center is everywhere:)

So you want to be reasonable Rhub.? I don't know, what's it all about?:p
 
RetroActive said:
Ok, I'm going to do something stupid. Let's try to understand what we're actually talking about. What we're talking about is turning reason's attention to the inner experience. In my limited understanding what all this hoopla is about in a grossly oversimplified way is this:

Using a ruler of intention, scales to weigh choice and responsibility and a compass to circumscribe reason along with the world as the model of the macrocosm that relates in principal, function and process to the microcosom within, one begins at the beginning. Base instinct, the urge to merge. Then emotions, desire, communication, the five senses, intuition and imagination, logic and self consistency, it's really an exercise in self discipline. After analysis of all these things (and much more) in their extremes, reducing them down to their essentials in experience, confronting all fears and associations one's adopted and applying the ruler of intention, weighing it all on the scales of choice and responsibilty and circumscribed it all with reason, recognizing in essence the principals, functions and processes within and without, then comes the big fear; Death, which is time. After tackling that fear and illuminated oneself with understanding, self awareness, the only opposition left is the tool which has circumscribed it all, the compass of reason. Reason, in recognizing that all opposition is contained within itself now, confronts itself with paradox. This was traditionally represented in the macrocosm as space, a negation, the formless void from which all things emerge and into which all things return. Silence presents a similar paradox within. So somehow one has to fold up the compass and go home. We all know that home is where the heart is...the center of all things...and that center is everywhere:)

So you want to be reasonable Rhub.? I don't know, what's it all about?:p
We overrate our minds and expect too much of them, probably because we've misused them, by quite simply overrating them. They don't even contain the bear minimum. The vital thoughts are those we keep secret. Our concealed thoughts encompass everything, but if we were to publish our secret thoughts, if we were to once express them, we'd be done for. Suddenly everything would be at an end. Everything would fly apart in an immense explosion.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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rhubroma said:
We overrate our minds and expect too much of them, probably because we've misused them, by quite simply overrating them. They don't even contain the bear minimum. The vital thoughts are those we keep secret. Our concealed thoughts encompass everything, but if we were to publish our secret thoughts, if we were to once express them, we'd be done for. Suddenly everything would be at an end. Everything would fly apart in an immense explosion.
:) Thus Spoke Zarathustra

Otium, self reflection, personal growth. Being human is really crazy.:rolleyes:

I think I'll have a beer.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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"In the beginning, God created heaven and earth"

I had to think of something recently and have some questions to all Christians on here:

Do you believe God created the universe?
Do you believe that there are life forms in the universe other than humans?
If there is other life in the universe, do you believe God created it?
Or did he just create mankind?
If there are other life forms that have been created by God, do they also have an after life?
Will we have to share our after life with other life forms, or do each have their own heaven?


If you believe that humans are the only life form in the entire universe, then all these questions become futile of course. Of course the existence of "aliens" has not been proven. But I think many Christians believe that we are not alone in the entire universe. So if any of you find yourself among those, I'd be interested in hearing how you reconcile the existence of other life with the existence of God.

Also, scientists have proven that the world will end when the sun starts to expand and will eventually destroy planet earth. Do you think this is God's will? Do you believe that is metaphorically described in the Apocalypse?
 

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