Jspear said:
Ah wretched radio. Brings back some good memories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZB0lLIcXIA
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Jspear said:
The Hitch said:
BigMac said:I have a question to the religous people here.
Something that bothers me (which by the way I think it proves to be extremely arrogant) is the fact that religion ignores the dimension of the Universe. Do you actually believe we're that special? What makes you think (apart from an holy book), that we're, ultimately, different from other living beings? What makes you think that we're alone in the Universe, when it comes to intelligent life forms?
How does that make sence to you?
Maaaaaaaarten said:Well, for me, it feels rather pointless to speculate about other intelligent life forms. If they exist, sure, God created them and I'd have to think about how they relate to humans and God's plan with His creation, but I certainly wouldn't just assume humans are somehow suprior to these hypothetical intelligent life forms. So, I don't think that we are necessarily alone, but I don't see any reason to believe that we arn't.
So really, for me personally, it seems to be a rather irrelevant question, since I don't have any way of knowing whether these life forms even exist, nor does it look like I'm going to have a way of knowing that anytime soon. I'd rather worry about how I relate to things that actually currently affect my life.
hrotha said:God is not a man nor a woman, but it so happens Hebrew has no grammatical neuter gender.
The Hitch said:
The Hitch said:What about other beings that you do relate to - animals. Do they go to heaven or hell? If not, what do you think happens to them. Is it the eternity of nothingness that religious people seem to find so difficult to imagine for us?
Christian said:I am interested in the take of our religious contributors - do you believe that god is a man? Do you think it is possible that god could be a woman? Do you think of god as having no gender?
God may be almighty, but he was constrained by the grammar of Biblical Hebrew, after which later Greek texts followed. If he had revealed himself in another language, the choice could have been different. It's completely irrelevant, from a theological point of view. The prevalence of traditional terms like "father" or "lord" makes it kinda silly to switch to another gender at this point, but sticking to the masculine is by no means a "need".Maaaaaaaarten said:But for me, I do feel the need to stay close to the terms that God has used to reveal himself in the Bible, which means I'm never going to refer to God with a 'she' and most certainly not an 'it'.
The Hitch said:Come back to me when you figure out a way to stop 7 billion people from eating meat.
Eshnar said:Even if you do, afterwards you'll have to figure out how to stop the unnecessary sufferings of the most discriminated living beings ever, the vegetables.
Jspear said:On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness
The sun (which separates night an day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
God's first creation on day 1 was time (It is important to keep this in perspective.) He made the axis which the earth spins on (creating day and night.) On the 2nd day He created space, the 3rd day He created plants, and on the 4th day He created the sun, moon, and stars. So on day one, light was coming from a source other than the sun. The sun is now the source of light(giving us day and night) since day 4 of creation.
Tree's were created before man was created.
Man was created before trees were created.
Genesis 1 states that trees were created before Adam. Genesis 2 does as well. In verses 4-6 it says that because there was not a man to till the ground, God sent up a mist from the earth that watered everything. Verse 7 (after talking about how God watered all the plants) says, and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed life into him. Verse 8 says God planted a garden for man to live in. This isn't talking about the creation of trees and all other plant life. This was a special place God made for Adam.
Birds were created before man was created.
Man was created before birds were created.
Genesis 1 is giving the order of events in chronological order. The focus in Genesis 2:19 is on naming the animals, not on creating them. Genesis 2 does not contradict chapter 1 since is does not affirm exactly when God created the animals. It simply says that the animals God created, He brought to Adam for him to name them. Taken together the two chapters show a more complete picture of the creation events.
Jspear said:The Bible actually makes a lot of sense. It's amazing...It's 66 different books, written by 40 different authors, over a time period of 1500-2000 years, and yet it has no contradictions.
Descender said:Here I am, hijacking and derailing my own thread...
You're being purposefully dense.
Changing the whole world upside down from one day to the next is impossible on pretty much any issue. That does not mean that making an impact is impossible.
A single person in the West going vegetarian would save the lives of more than thirty animals every year, more than 2,000 in an average person's lifetime.
Forget about going vegetarian: if we're talking about reducing animal suffering, the impact of every person in the developed world cutting their meat consumption by one meal per week (thereby contributing to protecting the environment and their own health) would be greater than getting rid of all circus, aquariums and zoo animals on earth.
I'm not sure whether you're being facetious. We have no reasons to believe plants are conscious or feel anything, which would be necessary conditions for them to suffer.
Kinda facetious but also kinda serious.Descender said:I'm not sure whether you're being facetious. We have no reasons to believe plants are conscious or feel anything, which would be necessary conditions for them to suffer.
Maaaaaaaarten said:I don't have any particular belief about what happens to animals after they die either. But I do certainly think humans are superior to animals, as, barring a few very dedicated vegans, I guess everybody does - though some might feel the need to say 'other animals'.
Eshnar said:Kinda facetious but also kinda serious.
We actually have no real proof of animals having a conscience, other than them having a brain. Considering how little we know about our consciousness in itself (and this is probably the only subject of the whole thread where I know what I'm saying), we really can't say for sure they indeed have one. As we can't say with 100% confidence plants don't have any.
RetroActive said:Or people could shop locally. We're fortunate in having a local farmer/butcher. It's probably more expensive (I really don't know) but oh well, we don't gorge on meat anyway.
BigMac said:We somewhat have proof animals have emotions, that is enough for me. You can observe it. Or do you think animals are restricted to physiology? Most of them (at least mammals) have been proven to feel empathy, or some cognitive biases for instance. That's enough for me. They feel sadness, etc.
Descender said:I wonder what it must be like to live in your world.
Eshnar said:That's no proof of emotions nor suffering as we call it. Animals are surely aware of what happens to their bodies, and that's a physiological fact. But that's it, as far as we know. Do they feel "pain"? Surely they realize they're been attacked, or they're wounded, or they have a sickness, and react accordingly. That's not a proof that they feel what we feel, although it is surely a hint. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that one day (not even too far away) we'll have robots full of sensors able to be completely aware of their internal and external body state. Perhaps even able to "be scared", meaning being able to run from potential dangers. Or being able to care about humans and interact with them. Does that mean those robots would feel "pain", or "fear", or "empathy"? Surely not, by the very definition of what we mean by "feeling".
To be completely correct, there's no actual proof that we all have a consciousness either (this is the paradox of the "zombie" - not those of the movies though ), although just the thought seems very silly. On the outside we can only see actions. There's just no way to tell, unless we really "crack" the mistery of consciousness at a physiological level.
rhubroma said:Happy downsizing and a return to local markets? How dare you! Don't say that to Tinkov.
Jspear said:It's truly amazing. I wake up every morning knowing that God's mercy's are new every morning. I know that He loves me, that he cares for me, and I can trust in Him for everything in life. I know that I'm His creation, a human made in His image....I'm not some animal. Christians have a way higher value of human life than nonbelievers because we know where we came from. I have a soul and conscience(something animals don't have), and I have the ability to enjoy life to the fullest knowing that I will one day be in Heaven with my Creator. It's truly amazing being Saved(and it's a free gift).