Reverse periodisation

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

Check out BLOCK PERIODISATION which is a non-linear approach and is a more widely used term for contemporary approaches, and more accurately reflects what is being done in various sports.

If it's good enough for Lance, it's good enough for me.

 

[thehog]

If it's good enough for Lance, it's good enough for me.

Love it!

Sounds like another product to flog off to the masses.

 

[Jeremiah]

Shows my runner's bias, I suppose, but all modern long distance training for peak events springs from New Zealand's Arthur Lydiard in the early 1960s: aerobic base first, power next, anaerobic sharpening last.

John Walker trained with very high mileage for a middle distance runner.

Sebastian Coe trained with half as much volume.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/aths.html

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

John Walker trained with very high mileage for a middle distance runner.

Sebastian Coe trained with half as much volume.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/aths.html

Walker's training was pure Lydiard -- 20 mile Sunday runs and all that. Coe's training was a one-off program put together by his father, of course. But a lot of speed-endurance training and plyometrics (jumping onto boxes). I believe the plyometrics got Coe from 49 to sub 46 in the 400m between his 17th and 18th years.

Interesting debate whether Coe was blood doping. It was not illegal in 1980 and 1984, when he won his golds, or in the years in-between when he set his records. His father Peter certainly would have studied it, since he wrote about blood values in his book on training. Then you have the mystery of Coe's 1983 season ruined by toxoplasmosis, a blood disease that mostly affects HIV+ men and rarely athletes.

 

[thehog]

[First post so...]

I figured if any place could shed some light on to the history of Periodization (Reverse or otherwise) this would be the place.

I was under the impression that Bompa and Matveyev came up with Periodization as a way to "enhance" PEDs, predominantly in bodybuilders. Their "peroidized training cycle" would match their anabolic steroid cycle. For instance, in the "preparation phase", the athlete would not necessarily need to 'roid up as they were mostly focused on proper form and technique. Western coaches were slow to pick up the Periodization idea simply because it was assumed that the Soviets just doped...which they did....but just smarter.

Cursory google searches aren't turning anything up but figured someone might know more than I. Assuming this is at least in part true, there is a grand sense of irony that the most common method of training that endurance athletes do is rooted in doping.

Thanks for the post.

I always heard the word "cycles" in the context of cyling on and off each drug. So yes I think it's similar that periodisation is the term used when phase in one "program" of drugs and training, working off it then onto the next phase and drug.

The bodybuilding circuit openly speak about their methods which are not too far from a cyclists preparation in terms or phases.

 

[Krebs cycle]

sigh, once again the makings of a decent thread with the opportunity for a decent discussion about an interesting topic are ruined by trolls whose only goal is to attack me and claim that anything and everything that Sky are reported to have done in their preparation would have no effect on performance and is thus a smokescreen for doping.

 

[D-Queued]

[First post so...]

I figured if any place could shed some light on to the history of Periodization (Reverse or otherwise) this would be the place.

I was under the impression that Bompa and Matveyev came up with Periodization as a way to "enhance" PEDs, predominantly in bodybuilders. Their "peroidized training cycle" would match their anabolic steroid cycle. For instance, in the "preparation phase", the athlete would not necessarily need to 'roid up as they were mostly focused on proper form and technique. Western coaches were slow to pick up the Periodization idea simply because it was assumed that the Soviets just doped...which they did....but just smarter.

Cursory google searches aren't turning anything up but figured someone might know more than I. Assuming this is at least in part true, there is a grand sense of irony that the most common method of training that endurance athletes do is rooted in doping.

I wasn't a bodybuilder, was not introduced to any 'roids and unfortunately can offer no authority to comment.

But, I don't remember Tudor hanging out with any bodybuilders.

The program was a lot more complex than what you have outlined, however, and certainly lent itself to a 'Block Periodization' model that others have introduced on this thread.

With respect to muscle development, for example, there was an annual progression from general fitness (e.g. like the 'prep' phase you outlined) to strength (large muscles) and then power and finally tapering then to lower weights with higher reps to build speed and endurance. (e.g. 30 minute repetitive circuit-based max amount of weight lifted tests with an 80-90 lb bar... 80,000 lb... that was the 'junior' test)

CV system development followed a similar arc, ending at race specific 'speedwork'.

Dave.

 

[Jeremiah]

Walker's training was pure Lydiard -- 20 mile Sunday runs and all that. Coe's training was a one-off program put together by his father, of course. But a lot of speed-endurance training and plyometrics (jumping onto boxes). I believe the plyometrics got Coe from 49 to sub 46 in the 400m between his 17th and 18th years.

Interesting debate whether Coe was blood doping. It was not illegal in 1980 and 1984, when he won his golds, or in the years in-between when he set his records. His father Peter certainly would have studied it, since he wrote about blood values in his book on training. Then you have the mystery of Coe's 1983 season ruined by toxoplasmosis, a blood disease that mostly affects HIV+ men and rarely athletes.

Coe was known to be susceptible to respiratory infections, his father ragged him about it and stated he got it from his mother's side of the family.

Who is debating whether Coe blood doped.. It was widely considered unethical from the time of Viren..

Regarding cycling, LeMond emphasized and continues to emphasize quality over quantity.. The problem being that it's very easy to overtrain which LeMond also struggled with...

 

[BigBoat]

As somebody already mentioned many riders like to start their off season with V02 max repeats to attempt at raising their threshold ceiling. Sometimes you will see a significant increase in FTP by doing 5 minute repeats at near V02 max power (113%+) FTP rather than by doing 20*3s at FTP. Raising FTP and teaching your body to burn fats for fuel are two important aspects of off season riding. To get accustomed to racing your can also micro burst during the winter...late winter or spring. Of course it all depends on when the racing starts, and how important it is to be in great shape. If your struggling early than you need to start stronger in order to not ride so poorly. Bradley Wiggins can afford to start the season slightly out of form, and just ride the early races with very small transfusions of blood to get a huge gain in fitness while riding at higher power outputs than he could at home...

Scratch riders need to have an extremely high threshold power too, I think I remember seeing Ben Swift at 5.7 w/kg for FTP...so for them its not all about AWC or neuromuscular training. track racing in general involves alot of the same 'base' building techniques as road training. I've raced world class scratch racers on the road, and they have extremely high aerobic capacity! They climb extremely well.

Of course, many 'world' tour riders just race year round. And that's a simple way to stay in shape too. Although its good to spend time training mentally and getting to know your strengths and weaknesses from a numbers standpoint, because race results often time are quite weird when it comes to your actualy weak spots. For example, a sprinter could win a hilly road race given the right conditions....and if he didn't know better he'd think he was a climber!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Walker's training was pure Lydiard -- 20 mile Sunday runs and all that. Coe's training was a one-off program put together by his father, of course. But a lot of speed-endurance training and plyometrics (jumping onto boxes). I believe the plyometrics got Coe from 49 to sub 46 in the 400m between his 17th and 18th years.

Interesting debate whether Coe was blood doping. It was not illegal in 1980 and 1984, when he won his golds, or in the years in-between when he set his records. His father Peter certainly would have studied it, since he wrote about blood values in his book on training. Then you have the mystery of Coe's 1983 season ruined by toxoplasmosis, a blood disease that mostly affects HIV+ men and rarely athletes.

By a huge coincidence, I have a copy of "Running Free" to hand, a biography of Coe from the early 1980s.

Coe's 400m PB was 46.85 in 1979 (age 21), three days before he set the mile world record. He did a relay leg in 45.9 in 1981 as well. His bests aged 19 and 20 were 49.1 and 47.7, so his progression was rapid, but from 19 to 21, you'd expect a rapid improvement. Old Man Coe highlighted early on in Coe's careere that he needed to be able to sprint to sprint to prosper at 800m, so there was a lot of emphasis on speed in training. Plyometrics played a large part in this, as did 200m repeats and 400m races.

By an even huger coincidence, an old work mate of mine had Toxoplasmosis at the same time as Coe and they ended up being treated by the same specialist. Coe's illness was either genuine, or an exceptionally elaborate scam!

 

[Benotti69]

By a huge coincidence, I have a copy of "Running Free" to hand, a biography of Coe from the early 1980s.

Coe's 400m PB was 46.85 in 1979 (age 21), three days before he set the mile world record. He did a relay leg in 45.9 in 1981 as well. His bests aged 19 and 20 were 49.1 and 47.7, so his progression was rapid, but from 19 to 21, you'd expect a rapid improvement. Old Man Coe highlighted early on in Coe's careere that he needed to be able to sprint to sprint to prosper at 800m, so there was a lot of emphasis on speed in training. Plyometrics played a large part in this, as did 200m repeats and 400m races.

By an even huger coincidence, an old work mate of mine had Toxoplasmosis at the same time as Coe and they ended up being treated by the same specialist. Coe's illness was either genuine, or an exceptionally elaborate scam!

When it comes to sport, most likely a scam.

Time and time again we have seen to what lengths people will go to win.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

When it comes to sport, most likely a scam.

Time and time again we have seen to what lengths people will go to win.

What do you think Coe was doing in 1983 then? He suffered a couple of (by his standards) embarrassing defeats, missed the inaugural world championships and several invitation events, where given his profile at the time, he could have earnt serious cash.

If he was going to miss 1983 as part of a doping programme to win the OGs in 1984, it would have been a whole lot simpler to announce he had a dodgy hamstring.

 

[thehog]

So Froome was 10 minutes back on each stage at Romandie - how did he deploy reverse periodisation to become best climber and 2nd best TT'er in the world 6 weeks later?

 

[RichWalk]

So Froome was 10 minutes back on each stage at Romandie - how did he deploy reverse periodisation to become best climber and 2nd best TT'er in the world 6 weeks later?

AH come on, he was just taking it easy in Romandie

 

[Doofus]

I suspect that a roadie or triathlete claiming that they "reverse periodize" is just a use of fancy-sounding garbage for "I'm doing a lot of tempo and low threshold instead of 6-hour rides." The work under 4mml is still aerobic and doesn't have a huge recovery cost.

If they were really "reverse periodizing," it would almost be block training of VO2 or lactate tolerance work, which both have substantial recovery cost and would put them at risk of getting colds and the like if they kept up any kind of base.

As some have said, unless you're training like a kilo rider or 400m+800m runner, you're probably not "reverse periodizing." If you indeed are, you're probably not doing anything longer than crits the following spring.

As for all the "Vision of Theodore" stories -- can anyone work "Tenerife" into an anagram for a good PED?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I suspect that a roadie or triathlete claiming that they "reverse periodize" is just a use of fancy-sounding garbage

IMHO, being able to string together complicated words associated with training is the halmark of the slow part of every group ride. I know very, very little and was always amazed at people who spoke with such conviction about stuff they clearly did not understand.

For me, though the principal totally works. I get faster on the same low volume and no fitness plateau issues other than when I introduce them.

I still have Bompa's book that I actually read carefully at the time. That's how I knew I understood very, very little about the topic. I don't think it had anything to do with the body building culture.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Starting with 'high intensity' can result in injury, if done in excess.

Intensity is certainly required to simulate improvement, but being able to train again after a scheduled recovery period is vital.
Having to extend the recovery period to heal due to excessive intensity is not productive.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

How do you know what your excess is if you do not test or try your own limits?

The High intensity can result in injury is just plain bull**** in my opinion.

 

[JRanton]

So Froome was 10 minutes back on each stage at Romandie - how did he deploy reverse periodisation to become best climber and 2nd best TT'er in the world 6 weeks later?

The parasites were still in the process of being killed off whilst he was riding Romandie, or so the story goes anyway...

 

[99kilos]

I still have Bompa's book that I actually read carefully at the time. That's how I knew I understood very, very little about the topic. I don't think it had anything to do with the body building culture.

My mistake, I misspoke; I should have instead said that he was the Romanian Strength Coach, not necessarily Body Building. The interview w/ Tudor that I was reading happened to be on a body building site prior to my posting and is probably why I said "body building" as opposed to strength & conditioning.

 

[JayKosta]

How do you know what your excess is if you do not test or try your own limits?

The High intensity can result in injury is just plain bull**** in my opinion.

==============================
you're right, 'high intensity' that doesn't result in injury is very important to get the best results from training.

BUT... choosing to do 'excessive' high intensity can result in the need for a long recovery period that detracts from training.

Be too conservative and you're not getting the most benefit from your training time.
Be too aggressive and you can't train again soon because you need to recover and heal.

If you can find the 'sweet spot' that's great.
My preference is to err on the side of caution, but I don't have the goal of being a top competitor.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA