Richard Carapaz discussion thread

[rghysens]

Today I see more clearly that Carapaz made a huge mistake.

You can't criticize him for his attitude, but you can criticize the lack of intelligence of a 32-year-old cyclist with his experience.

Simon was at the same distance from Carapaz as Carapaz was from Del Toro. And he attacked as if his situation was like the one at Tour 2022, with Geraint Thomas third, five minutes behind, and he didn't matter.

Yesterday, the criticism focused on Del Toro, who was horrible, and the UAE, a circus. But once the UAE's mistakes have been discussed, Carapaz and EF were horrible yesterday. Their attitude can only be excused, but they lacked any intelligence.

Carapaz forgot that there was the same gap between him and Simon as there was between him and Del Toro. Anyone watching the stage without knowing the differences would think Simon was five minutes or more behind Carapaz.

Yeah, but Carapaz has won the Giro, podiumed another time, podiumed vuelta and tour, so what a difference does a third place instead of a second make? What mattered was the win, and the only way to win was to let Del Toro empty himself.

 

[kn0s]

Anyone else bothered by the way he rode? When he let Simon up the road I thought for sure the tactic was to attack del toro with intent to bridge to Yates. Instead he just sat on the wheel and shipped away his podium position

Sat on the wheel? Of Gee? Who are we talking about? After the climb? I'm not following.

 

[kn0s]

7 w/kg attack in the first kilometer of maybe the hardest GT climb wasn't the smartest move. Yates didn't burn his legs like that at the start of the climb.

It was a bit much. But he really needed to make sure UAE was no help anywhere.

 

[Red Rick]

Anyone else bothered by the way he rode? When he let Simon up the road I thought for sure the tactic was to attack del toro with intent to bridge to Yates. Instead he just sat on the wheel and shipped away his podium position

I am not bothered. I really commend it actually. He should not do the work for the guy that is *** him over. It's not game theory optimal. Plus, Carapaz has won a Giro, he doesn't have to care about 2nd or 3rd. Del Toro is in it with the chance of a lifetime and he doesn't do the work? Then okay, I guess I lose.

 

[Red Rick]

7 w/kg attack in the first kilometer of maybe the hardest GT climb wasn't the smartest move. Yates didn't burn his legs like that at the start of the climb.

Pretty sure the 7W/kg was Derek Gee, who was already 20s behind by that point.

 

[scribers]

He has to drop IDT somewhere to win. What better way than to hop on the wheel of Yates after multiple attacks of his own.

I mean, Simon Yates. Come on

 

[Red Rick]

He has to drop IDT somewhere to win. What better way than to hop on the wheel of Yates after multiple attacks of his own.

I mean, Simon Yates. Come on

If he catches Yates, then Yates stops and the stop/start goes again.

And what do you mean, is Simon Yates suddenly a D-tier climber? Becuase it it was me who was calt a biased saltmine when I called this Giro the greatest 2.1 race ever.

 

[scribers]

Top 20 maybe?

 

[Cycling111]

Yeah, but Carapaz has won the Giro, podiumed another time, podiumed vuelta and tour, so what a difference does a third place instead of a second make? What mattered was the win, and the only way to win was to let Del Toro empty himself.

Carapaz has won a Giro, but it was a unique opportunity to win another because his rivals were a young rider who didn't know how to handle the situation and Yates, who hadn't won a GT since 2018.

Carapaz has won a Giro, but he doesn't have Pogacar's palmares to suggest this isn't such a significant opportunity.

UAE's mistakes can't cover up EF's mistakes yesterday.
Furthermore, Carapaz has all the experience that Del Toro lacks. That's why it's a huge mistake that he forgot that the third-place rider was so close to him. They could´ve gotten dropped Del Toro, who in this Giro he has struggled on every climb with percentages above 8%, and then it would´ve been useful to finish with Yates.

Having a Giro is an excuse.
Since Pogacar has one more Tour than Vingegaard, we'll excuse him for any mistakes he might make this Tour.
It wasn't just any Giro. It was a Giro against riders who were less favored than Carapaz at the start.
As much as he has won a Giro, it was a unique opportunity for Carapaz to add his second GT

 

[Red Rick]

Top 20 maybe?

Could be. Probably higher based on this Giro.

But it's not like Del Toro has a track record that's better in the high mountains. While it's "only Yates" it's also "only Carapaz" and "only Del Toro". Derek Gee, who was dropping 3 minutes every MTF in the Tour last year was within 2 and a half minutes going into Finestre and had dropped him on the only other hard MTF.

 

[Blobs]

Anyone else bothered by the way he rode? When he let Simon up the road I thought for sure the tactic was to attack del toro with intent to bridge to Yates. Instead he just sat on the wheel and shipped away his podium position

It looked to me like he tried to do exactly that. When Yates had a gap of 25 seconds (according to the GPS which were unreliable, but at big gap none the less) he put in a huge attack, which brought the gap back down to less than 5 seconds, where it stayed for a while. When he realised he couldn't quite close it, and he still had Del Toro in his wheel, he asked Del Toro to help, and when he wouldn't, he instead decided to let the gap open up to a point where Del Toro would have to work to defend his jersey, and then attack him after being in his wheel. The problem was Del Toro decided to ride for 2nd instead of trying to defend his jersey.

That's what it looked like to me, and it seems reasonable to me. He didn't expect Del Toro to just give up the jersey like that.

 

[Links2003]

UAE's mistakes can't cover up EF's mistakes yesterday.
Furthermore, Carapaz has all the experience that Del Toro lacks. That's why it's a huge mistake that he forgot that the third-place rider was so close to him. They could´ve gotten dropped Del Toro, who in this Giro he has struggled on every climb with percentages above 8%, and then it would´ve been useful to finish with Yates.

I don't understand your point. carapaz did an risky move at the bottom of the climb. He attacked several Times. But it was not enough to drop IDT. The he tried to make tempo. But he get no help from IDT.
In the emd, yes he and EF lost place 2. But to close the gap was not an option. Then IDT win the Giro. So the only chance was to hope that IDT want to win. That is normal. The his oppenent did not want.
But you will not do the work for place 2 to give some one the big victory.

 

[Rou]

I honestly believe that EF approached the Finestre in not an optimal way. I was in the other room when I heard at the base of Finestre: ''EF are goind mad! Carapaz on the move!". I couldn't believe my eyes. I was thinking the optimal way to do it is to drill it for at least 6 kms and then Carapaz to launch.

 

[Gigs_98]

I will defend him for his performance yesterday as long as this forum exists. He gave absolutely everything he had trying to distance Del Toro on Finestre and he couldn't. The only way he was ever gonna win this Giro was him stopping to pull Del Toro, as a result del Toro has to tire himself by chasing Yates and Carapaz can drop him once he's fatigued. That's exactly what he was trying to do. The fact that Del Toro would rather have a guaranteed 2nd place than fighting for the victory is not his fault. If you want to criticize him you have to point at stuff like stages 17 and 19 where he could have tried harder to finish Del Toro for good, but with the Finestre looming large on stage 20 it's also understandable why he didn't. Carapaz spent the entire week only caring about one spot on the podium and to see him getting slandered for doing so is genuinely annoying me. What he did doesn't deserve criticism but praise.
Chapeau Richie, you gave everything you had.

 

[Red Rick]

I will defend him for his performance yesterday as long as this forum exists. He gave absolutely everything he had trying to distance Del Toro on Finestre and he couldn't. The only way he was ever gonna win this Giro was him stopping to pull Del Toro, as a result del Toro has to tire himself by chasing Yates and Carapaz can drop him once he's fatigued. That's exactly what he was trying to do. The fact that Del Toro would rather have a guaranteed 2nd place than fighting for the victory is not his fault. If you want to criticize him you have to point at stuff like stages 17 and 19 where he could have tried harder to finish Del Toro for good, but with the Finestre looming large on stage 20 it's also understandable why he didn't. Carapaz spent the entire week only caring about one spot on the podium and to see him getting slandered for doing so is genuinely annoying me. What he did doesn't deserve criticism but praise.
Chapeau Richie, you gave everything you had.

Yes and no?

Not pulling for Del Toro I support 100%. Smashing his head against the base of the Finestre against a more explosive rider I support 0%.

To me Carapaz was the best climber in the race over the 3 weeks, and he's clearly the biggest victim of the parcours. Del Toro had a weaker stretch on stage 16-17 than he was on stage 19-20, so I think yesterday isn't much of a missed opportunity, and instead the only real missed opportunity before yesterday is leaving it so late on the Mortirolo. And yes, that's a logical thing in the sense that the steepest km of Mortirolo at 2km from the top, but the softball pace before made it always super unlikely he could get a decisive split there. He needed to get the right seperation with Yates, Gee, Pellizzari and their domestiques against an isolated Del Toro, preferably with Majka and Adam dropped.

But that's always 20/20. I don't really blame him for believing he can do it on Finestre, though I don't think Finestre suited Carapaz all that much.

 

[Urbi27]

Imo if Carapaz had one strong domestique in mountains he could win this Giro without a doubt. In fact EF is such a weak team that it's hard to choose better squad maybe Powless could be usefull. If Carapaz had Majka on his side it would be much easier to win.

 

[Gigs_98]

Yes and no?

Not pulling for Del Toro I support 100%. Smashing his head against the base of the Finestre against a more explosive rider I support 0%.

To me Carapaz was the best climber in the race over the 3 weeks, and he's clearly the biggest victim of the parcours. Del Toro had a weaker stretch on stage 16-17 than he was on stage 19-20, so I think yesterday isn't much of a missed opportunity, and instead the only real missed opportunity before yesterday is leaving it so late on the Mortirolo. And yes, that's a logical thing in the sense that the steepest km of Mortirolo at 2km from the top, but the softball pace before made it always super unlikely he could get a decisive split there. He needed to get the right seperation with Yates, Gee, Pellizzari and their domestiques against an isolated Del Toro, preferably with Majka and Adam dropped.

But that's always 20/20. I don't really blame him for believing he can do it on Finestre, though I don't think Finestre suited Carapaz all that much.

I guess I agree riding the first km of Finestre that hard wasn't a good decision. But I see him getting criticised for completely different stuff and frankly, I don't think he was dropping Del Toro just by his own strength yesterday anyway. Maybe bad decisions led to Yates riding away from both of them, but I think Yates riding away was a necessary condition for Carapaz to win the Giro in the first place.

 

[Red Rick]

I guess I agree riding the first km of Finestre that hard wasn't a good decision. But I see him getting criticised for completely different stuff and frankly, I don't think he was dropping Del Toro just by his own strength yesterday anyway. Maybe bad decisions led to Yates riding away from both of them, but I think Yates riding away was a necessary condition for Carapaz to win the Giro in the first place.

I agree. Main criticism is for stupid reasons.

Frankly with how he got dropped in the sprint on Sestriere I think he was completely barbecued on top of Finestre, though I can respect the hustle if you drop seconds there to make Del Toro look extra dumb.

 

[Cycling111]

Imo if Carapaz had one strong domestique in mountains he could win this Giro without a doubt. In fact EF is such a weak team that it's hard to choose better squad maybe Powless could be usefull. If Carapaz had Majka on his side it would be much easier to win.

Yesterday, the top three climbed Finestre without any domestiques.
Not even Del Toro had any. Cepeda destroyed the entire UAE with his pace before Carapaz's attack.

Simon had a domestique after Finestre, but all three climbed Finestre alone.

Carapaz was wrong.
Del Toro has always been the weakest of the three on all the mountains with over 8%

 

[Urbi27]

Yesterday, the top three climbed Finestre without any domestiques.
Not even Del Toro had any. Cepeda destroyed the entire UAE with his pace before Carapaz's attack.

Simon had a domestique after Finestre, but all three climbed Finestre alone.

Carapaz was wrong.
Del Toro has always been the weakest of the three on all the mountains with over 8%

Cepeda pull of after 1.5 km and after that Carapaz had to drop Del Toro by his own. On stage 16 we saw that for Mexican it's harder to maintain high pace on 8% then responding for the jumps and then riding relatively slower. Imo if Carapaz could attack when the gravel section starts after riding first half of the climb in good pace it could be much easier to drop Del Toro and control Yates

 

[ice&fire]

He has to drop IDT somewhere to win. What better way than to hop on the wheel of Yates after multiple attacks of his own.

I mean, Simon Yates. Come on

Rewatch the climb. Carapaz accelerations drpped Yates at least twice, and del Toro chased him before Yates did. After that, Carapaz closed two Yates attacks, dropping del Toro temporarily. When Carapaz took Yates' wheel they slowed down and del Toro caught them again. The third time Yates went, Carapaz said to del Toro "your turn". Del Toro did not pull, Yates gained around 20s, Carapaz pulled until the gap was reduced to about 10s and nudged del Toro to help, but del Toro didn't. And that was the end of it.

 

[Potomac]

In retrospect, of course it seems they might have won if if if if. But that's almost always the case when you don't win.,

 

[Wyndbrook]

Wout says he loves it when riders do not ride for a place of honour.
Well two guys did yesterday.

 

[scribers]

Rewatch the climb. Carapaz accelerations drpped Yates at least twice, and del Toro chased him before Yates did. After that, Carapaz closed two Yates attacks, dropping del Toro temporarily. When Carapaz took Yates' wheel they slowed down and del Toro caught them again. The third time Yates went, Carapaz said to del Toro "your turn". Del Toro did not pull, Yates gained around 20s, Carapaz pulled until the gap was reduced to about 10s and nudged del Toro to help, but del Toro didn't. And that was the end of it.

Sounds about right. Made the decisions that lost the race for himself and a podium position

 

[Miha81]

Sounds about right. Made the decisions that lost the race for himself and a podium position

IMO it was a right decision. He just did not expect IDT will not pull to defend the jersey. Nor did I TBH. The rest is history.

Only way for him to win this Giro on the stage 20 was to IDT burn himself down chasing SY. It did not happen and for Carapaz it doesn not matter 2nd or 3rd. The only real prize for him was the win.