Richie Porte Discussion Thread.

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

As it stands right now, Porte is one of the 2-3 biggest favorites for the Tour and in situation like that team can not afford to have a rider with no obligation to work for team leader. in other words, Van Avermaet can chase his wins and breakaways, but only when Porte is safe and not in danger.

GVA has to have a completely free role. If he's not stage hunting, then sure, he can take a pull for Porte. But BMC would be crazy to insist he sacrifice himself. He's one of the top riders in world cycling and easily their number one star - you don't tell him to work for a 32 year old who's best GT finish is 5th.

Maybe if Porte is leading the race, or in serious contention, going into the third week then GVA lends his support - and I'm sure he'd be happy to in that scenario. But, until then, Porte will have to make do with 7 team mates.

Well judging by Porte's form, he'll be leading or in serious contention already after stage 5. So he has his chance in stage 3, after that I don't know. I would give him a chance in Rodez stage also and that's that if Porte is in contention. He's a top rider indeed, but in classics, in GT's he could snatch a stage. Porte could do much more. And GVA is also a 32 year old, who start producing big wins a year ago, so...

 

[deValtos]

A stage win is honestly pretty irrelevant when you have a realistic shot at winning the yellow jersey. If that's what GVA wants to do then I just wouldn't take him.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

As it stands right now, Porte is one of the 2-3 biggest favorites for the Tour and in situation like that team can not afford to have a rider with no obligation to work for team leader. in other words, Van Avermaet can chase his wins and breakaways, but only when Porte is safe and not in danger.

GVA has to have a completely free role. If he's not stage hunting, then sure, he can take a pull for Porte. But BMC would be crazy to insist he sacrifice himself. He's one of the top riders in world cycling and easily their number one star - you don't tell him to work for a 32 year old who's best GT finish is 5th.

Maybe if Porte is leading the race, or in serious contention, going into the third week then GVA lends his support - and I'm sure he'd be happy to in that scenario. But, until then, Porte will have to make do with 7 team mates.

Well judging by Porte's form, he'll be leading or in serious contention already after stage 5. So he has his chance in stage 3, after that I don't know. I would give him a chance in Rodez stage also and that's that if Porte is in contention. He's a top rider indeed, but in classics, in GT's he could snatch a stage. Porte could do much more. And GVA is also a 32 year old, who start producing big wins a year ago, so...

Sure, I don't dispute that Porte is in great form and could do well in the race. But he also has the history of having really bad days in most GTs.

And my point more generally, is that a team like BMC absolutely should not be doing anything to upset their biggest star. In some ways GVA's age, and his relatively late blossoming as a great rider, means that he will be even more keen to win as much as possible (including Tour stages) than a younger rider. If Porte had already earned his stripes and was a 3 time GT champion or something, then maybe GVA could be expected to lend a hand - kind of like Valverde does to Quintana. But in this situation - BMC have to be very careful and aware of who their real star is imo, and not upsetting him for a relatively unproven rider.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

A stage win is honestly pretty irrelevant when you have a realistic shot at winning the yellow jersey. If that's what GVA wants to do then I just wouldn't take him.

And then they would lose him to another team. And have no chance of winning any one day races for the next few years, where they would currently be favourites.

One extra man isn't going to help Porte that much - especially if its only the 8th best support rider BMC have. Seriously upsetting and risking losing GVA, would be catastrophic for the team.

 

[movingtarget]

There is no way that BMC will expect the Olympic champion and monument winner turn up to just ride support. BMC won't deny themselves possible stage wins. The best scenario is that he wins an early stage and settles into a support role and most stage hunters will already have stages targeted that give them the best chance of a win.Knowing GVA though he probably won't be settling for one stage win but they will need to find a balance. Luckily BMC don't have a bunch sprinter which would make it even worse for Porte. The last thing BMC wants is no wins at all which is what they would get if Porte doesn't win GC and the rest of the team just took a supporting role. Although there has to be a good chance that Porte himself can win stages based on current form.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

There is no way that BMC will expect the Olympic champion and monument winner turn up to just ride support. BMC won't deny themselves possible stage wins. The best scenario is that he wins an early stage and settles into a support role and most stage hunters will already have stages targeted that give them the best chance of a win.Knowing GVA though he probably won't be settling for one stage win but they will need to find a balance. Luckily BMC don't have a bunch sprinter which would make it even worse for Porte. The last thing BMC wants is no wins at all which is what they would get if Porte doesn't win GC and the rest of the team just took a supporting role. Although there has to be a good chance that Porte himself can win stages based on current form.

Cance did with the Bee Gees . It's a team discussion to be had. BMC was exposed at the CDD...without a stronger team, Porte can be shredded by the vultures. BMC has to make a call. And get everyone on board.

 

[Leinster]

GVA's best stage chances at the Tour will be stages 14 and 15. By that point BMC will know very well if they need Greg to help look after Richie, or if he's ok with just Roche and DeMarchi, and Greg can head up the road.

Besides which, it's always going to be part of BMC's tactics to get a guy into the break who can sit up and help their leader. If that's Van Avermaet or whoever, then great.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

There is no way that BMC will expect the Olympic champion and monument winner turn up to just ride support. BMC won't deny themselves possible stage wins. The best scenario is that he wins an early stage and settles into a support role and most stage hunters will already have stages targeted that give them the best chance of a win.Knowing GVA though he probably won't be settling for one stage win but they will need to find a balance. Luckily BMC don't have a bunch sprinter which would make it even worse for Porte. The last thing BMC wants is no wins at all which is what they would get if Porte doesn't win GC and the rest of the team just took a supporting role. Although there has to be a good chance that Porte himself can win stages based on current form.

Cance did with the Bee Gees . It's a team discussion to be had. BMC was exposed at the CDD...without a stronger team, Porte can be shredded by the vultures. BMC has to make a call. And get everyone on board.

That's right. If Porte drops out of contention early in the race it won't matter but a stage win in the Tour is nothing to be scoffed at so BMC have to make up their minds pretty quickly with what their strategy is going to be regarding support for Porte. Evans never minded doing some domestique duty for Gilbert in certain races and loyalty is usually repaid at some point, most of the time.

 

[yaco]

GVA has been helping out in the Tour of Suisse - At the end of the day, all riders in a team help each other in some way - TDF will be no different.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

A stage win is honestly pretty irrelevant when you have a realistic shot at winning the yellow jersey. If that's what GVA wants to do then I just wouldn't take him.

And then they would lose him to another team. And have no chance of winning any one day races for the next few years, where they would currently be favourites.

One extra man isn't going to help Porte that much - especially if its only the 8th best support rider BMC have. Seriously upsetting and risking losing GVA, would be catastrophic for the team.

Much bigger riders then Greg Van Avermaet rode as helpers, like Cancellara, Boonen, Valverde and Sagan. So I don't see any problem Greg doing that. He'll have his chances that's for sure, but he must be available to Richie when needed also.

P.S. He helped Caruso today, so I don't think he has any kind of problem with that.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

A stage win is honestly pretty irrelevant when you have a realistic shot at winning the yellow jersey. If that's what GVA wants to do then I just wouldn't take him.

And then they would lose him to another team. And have no chance of winning any one day races for the next few years, where they would currently be favourites.

One extra man isn't going to help Porte that much - especially if its only the 8th best support rider BMC have. Seriously upsetting and risking losing GVA, would be catastrophic for the team.

Much bigger riders then Greg Van Avermaet rode as helpers, like Cancellara, Boonen, Valverde and Sagan. So I don't see any problem Greg doing that. He'll have his chances that's for sure, but he must be available to Richie when needed also.

P.S. He helped Caruso today, so I don't think he has any kind of problem with that.

Of course Van Avermaet can lend a hand when necessary, like the above riders did to a very limited extent. But there's no way he's going to be told to sit and work in a BMC train on a stage which he thinks he has a great chance of winning. Zero chance of that happening. Riding for Caruso in a training ride at Suisse is not comparable to giving up his own chances at the Tour. He could do a job like Sagan did for Contador maybe. Once every five stages lend a hand for a few minutes. But nothing more.

We're talking about Porte here after all. You don't sacrifice GVA for someone with such a history of failure in GTs as Porte has.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

BMC and Porte are going to be hoping GVA gets his on Stage 3.

 

[Leinster]

Should all this discussion maybe move to the Greg Van Avermaet thread?

GvA has his monument win now, to go with his Olympic gold medal, his multiple minor classics, his stage wins in Le Tour in different years, and his couple of days in the Maillot Jaune last year. His best chance of winning De Ronde (which is what he really wants) is to stick with the BMC guys he's been riding with the last few years for his other close calls in that race. The only other thing he could possibly (reasonably) want to add to his palmares is "helped his leader win a Grand Tour," which would arguably have greater cache long-term than "won stage 15 of the 2017 Tour, finishing 50th in GC and 200 points behind Sagan in the green jersey comp."

Cancelara, as a multiple Roubaix winner, rode cobbled stages in the Tour purely to help Andy Schleck win the overall. Sometimes there's a bigger picture than just today's stage.

 

[vedrafjord]

This is all pretty similar to the discussion about world champion Mark Cavendish going back to the car for bottles in 2012 and Wiggins helping him in the odd leadout etc.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

GVA had no issue working for Caruso today. He will have no issue working for Porte as long as he has free reign to target the stages that suit him.

 

[HelloDolly]

So Samuel Sanchez is not riding the Tour

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

So Samuel Sanchez is not riding the Tour

Saving him for the Vuelta it seems. I'd say that Dennis and TJVG will also do the Vuelta. Which means Porte will have Roche and Caruso. Not ideal but maybe the best option he has. The minimal support didn't effect him too much last year in the mountains. Hard to find talented climbing domestiques now as teams lock them up contract wise.

 

[Ikbengodniet]

I don't understand why they won't take Dennis after his failed giro. Would be the favourite for yellow in Dusseldorf and can be a great domestique for LRP. But maybe a possible top 10 in Vuelta is more important?

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

I don't understand why they won't take Dennis after his failed giro. Would be the favourite for yellow in Dusseldorf and can be a great domestique for LRP. But maybe a possible top 10 in Vuelta is more important?

Already has a yellow jersey and apparently Küng will ride the Tour instead of him, he wanted to be there from the start, while Dennis wanted to ride Giro-Vuelta to test himself in a gt.
The climbing support isn't exactly great, no Samu, no TJVG, no Hermans and no Rohan Dennis. Caruso is strong, but I don't know about Roche and his form.
Port will have a strong team around him on the flat stages and mostly follow wheels in the mountains, but if he ends up being the race leader at one point and long range attacks start he could be in trouble.

 

[deValtos]

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

I don't understand why they won't take Dennis after his failed giro. Would be the favourite for yellow in Dusseldorf and can be a great domestique for LRP. But maybe a possible top 10 in Vuelta is more important?

Already has a yellow jersey and apparently Küng will ride the Tour instead of him, he wanted to be there from the start, while Dennis wanted to ride Giro-Vuelta to test himself in a gt.
The climbing support isn't exactly great, no Samu, no TJVG, no Hermans and no Rohan Dennis. Caruso is strong, but I don't know about Roche and his form.
Port will have a strong team around him on the flat stages and mostly follow wheels in the mountains, but if he ends up being the race leader at one point and long range attacks start he could be in trouble.

I have got to say that BMC are really testing my patience here

Dennis wants to do the Tour ...he has said so
Sanchez also wants to do the Tour as does Hermans
To leave these riders at home is a major mistake

Porte cannot rely on 2 Mtn doms ...well one really if Roche is doing the road captain which tends to be riding everywhere on flat and rolling

Absolute madness

Is it BMC not understanding what is required ?
As for saving for the Vuelta ...that is nonsense ...Dennis or TJ will not do a top GC at the Vuelta and Sanchez as shown previously only does well at the Vuelta after riding the Tour

I think BMC must be lead by their riders and not the other way round ...
If Porte takes the jersey everyone will attack him and even if both Roche and Caruso are flying they are no competition for SKY or Astana or Movistar team every day

Were BMC not watching the Dauphine ??

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

 

[DFA123]

I think the politics involved in some of these decisions is being underestimated here. If you've promised riders a spot on the Tour team (maybe even that was the only reason they signed for you) then you can't remove them at the last minute without seriously disrupting the morale on the team. And of course riders in the peloton talk - so it will harm your chances of signing talented riders in the future if they can't trust you when it comes to contract negotiations.

You've also got the issue that a rider like Dennis will have had his whole season based around peaking at the Giro. He may look strong now, but could be much more vulnerable to fading later in the race (when he would potentially be needed the most), compared with riders who have been training with the Tour in mind since January.

 

[greenedge]

But in another sense look at someone like Geraint Thomas who tried to peak for the Giro,crashed out and will ride the TDF (admittedly was always going to ride the TDF anyways but still). I know Dennis is not at G's level climbing wise but he would still be invaluable for Porte in chasing down breakaways or bridging gaps in the peleton. Both those riders abandoned their main goals, but both also missed out on the toil of 3 weeks of hard riding, which should leave them theoretically in better shape to ride the TDF.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Not really, tis an internet forum. Calling someone a moron isn't overdoing it.

Id bring Dennis because he's got the best chance of winning a stage of almost any rider in the peloton, even more than GVA I think. Plus it's stage 1 so it won't impact Richie at all (assuming they don't kill everyone off protecting it, but I assume they won't.) Then as you said he's insane on the flat and rolling terrain as a dom. Ofc they have people that can do that but the way I see it is that Dennis is just an upgrade in that role. Plus he can sort of go ok in the mountains which is just a bonus some of the other flatlanders can't.

There's just really no reason not to take him other than what DFA mentions about team politics and promising spots and other similar things e.g morale

I will say Sky don't seem to have that issue though, I think riders know very well they have to fight for their spots with a lot of guys uncertain if they're in or not. I get the impression the BMC TDF team was decided months ago.

Also to the guy who mentioned Samu wants to the TDF, have you got a source for that? Again he's another rider they should consider.