saganftw said:
If you can get fourth at the Giro you can do well at the Vuelta GC too
Perhaps even podium for him.
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If you can get fourth at the Giro you can do well at the Vuelta GC too
Perhaps even podium for him.
El Pistolero said:If you can get fourth at the Giro you can do well at the Vuelta GC too
Perhaps even podium for him.
i still think for french teams and riders TdF is so much more important than vuelta that they would sacrifice top 10 vuelta for good show in TdF
besides dupont can ride vuelta
Better puncheurs than Gadret will be dispatched by Gibert on the short uphill finishes in the Tour. If Gadret were to ride he should target a stage in the high mountains, IMO.
What Gadret did last year showed what sort of person he is. I don't blame Roche for going off as he was the protected rider. Roche should be the team leader. Gadret rode the Giro. If Gadret does something similar this year he should be kicked off the race by the DS.
movingtarget said:
To protect someone's 16th place lol?
I'll go with what Hinault recently said. People don't remember someone coming 15th or something at the Tour, but stage winners are remembered.
I think Roche is a very average cyclist that only gets attention because of his name.
El Pistolero said:
An opinion which would carry more weight if you didn't consistently give the impression that everyone except for Contador and Gilbert are sub-par.
Zinoviev Letter said:
Arguing besides the point.
Don't respond then if you can't refute the claim with real arguments. Besides you forgot Cancellara.
And this has what to do with Roche being an average cyclist? You know the point. Let's keep at least one topic on topic shall we
El Pistolero said:
It is a real argument. By your standards all but three cyclists in the world are "average cyclists". If that's the measure we are using then, sure, Roche is an average cyclist. I don't think however that anyone else shares your standards, which makes arguing about it with you rather pointless.
As for whether he gets more attention because he's the son of a man who won the Giro, Tour and World Championships in one year, yes of course he does. That's hardly shocking.
While I'm not particularly interested in your assessment of any contemporary riders, because your assessment is always negative, I will admit to being a bit curious about how high your standards are for riders of previous generations. How about Roche Sr? Was he an average cyclist?
Zinoviev Letter said:
I don't find a lot of cyclists average, but Roche is one that I find extremely average. By the attention he gets here you'd think he rides top 5 in the Tour.
No, Stephen Roche was not average. He won 2 GTs, the Worlds, some decent stage races, placed high in several other GTs and generally suffered a lot of injuries that made his palmares less impressive than it could have been.
Roche is someone who can't top 10 a Tour. And I find someone racing for a 15th place or something without stage wins pretty average yeah.
There's 4-5 cyclists who I think stand above everyone else: Cancellara, Gilbert, Valverde and Contador.
But those below aren't automatically average. But Roche very much is an average cyclist. Why would anyone want to make a goal out of a 15th place in the Tour? Better focus on stage wins then if that's all you can do. Gadret is a way more interesting cyclist to me. Especially during this year's Giro.
So no, sorry it's not an argument. Just because I call someone a second tier cyclist doesn't mean I find them average.
El Pistolero said:
Who's the fifth, Cav?
I agree that Roche's results aren't all that exciting, but I think people are aware of that. If there's a rivalry on the team, then Gadret certainly has the upper hand now, despite Roche's good Vuelta. Wouldn't surprise me if Roche has an answer- he can still improve- but surely top ten at the Tour is the maximum.
lets remember roche has a 7th in the vuelta gadret should be no1 after his 4th in the giro but he will be exhausted after that effort, the longer tt will also play into roches hands so roche should lead and ideally gadret rests for the vuelta
very strange discussion for a non english speaking guy, which obviously consider roche a second tier gc contender with an important name.
after such a hard giro, gadret has no chance to do well in this year tour, so no reason to bring him there .
gadret is more suitable to italian climbs ( steeper and harder) and probably he did not prepair to do 2 gt in a row.
last year nobody did giro and tour well. this year it will be even more difficult, because of the demanding giro road.
so he should not go to the tour, because he is probably cooked.
the only reason to bring him in the tour is to draw attention on his team from french media...and this is not a good reason.
having said that, gadret accomplished with his 4th place with a stage win much more than nicolas roche in his career ( 7th in a very weak vuelta with no stage wins..).
so next year gadret should focus on the tour ( and dauphinee too, should be a good goal) as ag2r leader, with no doubt except an outstanding performance from roche this year ( to me , he will be between 8 and 20 in the gc, not really outstanding.., but i hope i am wrong and too pessimistic )
in my eyes , there is a lot of hype on roche because of his name and irish backgound.
it is perfectly ok to support and have interest in guys from your own country and speaking your own language, but technical evaluation should be based on palmares and achievements.
after such a hard giro, gadret has no chance to do well in this year tour, so no reason to bring him there .
gadret is more suitable to italian climbs ( steeper and harder) and probably he did not prepair to do 2 gt in a row.
last year nobody did giro and tour well. this year it will be even more difficult, because of the demanding giro road.
so he should not go to the tour, because he is probably cooked.
the only reason to bring him in the tour is to draw attention on his team from french media...and this is not a good reason.
having said that, gadret accomplished with his 4th place with a stage win much more than nicolas roche in his career ( 7th in a very weak vuelta with no stage wins..).
so next year gadret should focus on the tour ( and dauphinee too, should be a good goal) as ag2r leader, with no doubt except an outstanding performance from roche this year ( to me , he will be between 8 and 20 in the gc, not really outstanding.., but i hope i am wrong and too pessimistic )
in my eyes , there is a lot of hype on roche because of his name and irish backgound.
it is perfectly ok to support and have interest in guys from your own country and speaking your own language, but technical evaluation should be based on palmares and achievements.
profff said:
Hang on a second. Is there anybody in this thread saying otherwise?
There's nobody making unrealistic claims for Roche at all here. Nobody claiming that a 7th in the Vuelta is as good as a 4th in the Giro. Nobody predicting a podium spot for him in Paris. Nobody denying that his name brings him extra interest. In fact, I'd suspect that most people engaged in this allegedly "strange discussion" think that you are being a bit generous in describing him, on the basis of his results to date, as a second tier gc contender rather than a third tier one.
The disagreements have been:
A) Over whether Gadret or Roche is a better choice of Tour leader for Ag2r. And you yourself come down on Roche's side for the same reason most other people do: Gadret is extremely unlikely to have any sort of form.
B) Over whether or not Roche is a boring rider. He's not. If anything he's a bit rash.
Zinoviev Letter said:
Mind you I only started this discussion because someone said Gadret should be thrown out of the team because he should work for Roche. Yeah, a French team kicking out a French cyclist because he doesn't want to work for mr. average.
El Pistolero said:
I'm guessing your referring to last years tour? Ofcourse he shouldn't be kicked off but roche was ahead of him and was a team leader so he should of worked for him, it struck me as arrogant and I think it rubbed other people up the wrong way. Saying that he had proven to be ahead roche for the moment. He is fairly young and has room to improve. I strongly suspect Mr average will leave once his contract runs out and that there will be plenty suitors
Personally, I think the problem is Gadret disobeyed direct team orders, and that's not good for the team spirit, but said team orders (everyone, work for the guy trying to get a top 15) were daft.Midnightfright said:
El Pistolero said:
It is a team sport no ? It has nothing to do with where he may finish overall. The team leader gets the help. When Roche needed the wheel, he was riding well, hence his frustration re the Ahole who refused to help his own team mate.
hrotha said:
I don't think that the incident is of particular significance a year later (!), but I'm not sure that the orders were particularly daft.
Roche at that point was riding for a top 10 (something which would actually be significant for a French team) and it wasn't as if the team was only concerned with riding for him. All that "riding for" a fringe GC contender entails is one person to keep him out of the wind on flat days, someone who can climb getting him a few bottles in the mountains... and of course helping him if he gets a mechanical.
It's not as if Ag2r were sending guys to the front to work for him all day! They were trying to put someone in every break (the key thing for them), having a (pretty forlorn) go at the sprints, and also looking after their fringe GC rider. Really, you may as well have your guys in the bunch keep him out of the wind and you may as well have whoever you have left on a steeper stage get him a bottle. It only costs you something if you have something better to do with those riders, and frankly, once the break of the day is gone Ag2r don't have anything useful to do with them.
There are some people who disapprove of working for GC places outside the top 5. I can sort of appreciate that sentiment, because it leads to many of the more talented riders riding conservatively, trying to hold their place. But, because the Tour is so overwhelmingly important nowadays, in terms of publicity and therefore money, it's the way things are going. Getting 10th place in the Tour is a big deal to a team, particularly a French team, whether we like it or not.
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