Rodriguez's time trial of his career!

[Parrulo]

Rubbish.

He paced it better than Contador.

He also lost something like 5.6 seconds per km to Froome last year. Nearly 7 to Martin so no use pointing to an under 3 sec/km loss this year as some kind of sign that there was nothing suspicious.

40w at 50 kmh is the best explanation so far, but I am not sure that I really buy it nor does it fully explain the improvement both in flat TTs and long climbs.

hey i am by no means saying his tears create rainbows and that his hobby is to feeds baby seals, just saying while an impressive and, as always in cycling on cases like this, suspicious performance imo it is no faultless prove that purito upped his program a couple of levels.

 

[Parrulo]

If I have to guess, I'd say Purito started juicing in this year's Giro. He was wearing pink for the longest time, and it was only the TT that was in his way. And he knew he had no chance against Hesjedal, so he juiced up, and did the best TT of his life. Still wasn't enough, but now he knows the benefits.

This TT was a confirmation for me that he's on juice. For a rider like him, you don't lose only a minute to a stronger TTer like Contador, especially in such a long TT.

surprised no1 picked on this as it is one of silliest things i have read in the clinic in a while. it is "impossible" to simply decide to dope half way through a GT, the doping program the top guys are on involve months and preparations and not a simple call to my friend Jose from asturias asking him to get himself on a plane and bring those extra liters of blood that were stored in the bridge just in case.

 

[Parrot23]

Beating Tony Martin, among some others, was odd, let's say. What the heck's up with Martin? Hills so far killed his legs?

 

[_frost]

I don't have authentic info for Rodriguez. SW found over 20W in hardware, frame, tires, wheels, skinsuits etc. Add lots more for the position.

All data was measured on a roofed track. In crosswinds, values may be even higher.

That, and if the 40w total is accurate, is massive!!

 

[Mr.38%]

I told you, it was a mess.

Tony was trained by SW, Grabsch as well (they - cough - may be still "in contact"...). He did wonders for HTC, he paved the way for Teutenberg at Orica. And he was there long before SKY's marginal gains.

Really interesting info about powerfiles from the German ITT championships as well. These are an eye-opener regarding aerodynamics.

But try to find SWs studies from university published - you won't.

 

[Winterfold]

JR TT:ing few years ago. Does it need explanations?

Come on - of course it does - everyone knows you can only hold a low position through doping and skill handling a TT bike come from being on the juice

(that position is hilarious)

 

[Winterfold]

lol

Looks like he's need a custom bike like Evans to get the bars low enough? The Canyon bike must be way better.

The Canyon bike has a much longer top tube by the looks of it - which allows him to get lower (as long bodied, short legged short dude I can relate) - but this is more difficult position to hold and you have to work on your core strength - although he is quite muscular so maybe he will get/got the benefit quickly once he had got the position more dialled.

I did not find yesterday's result surprising. Froome looked laboured and Contador looked spinny rather than powerful, the other two are good technically and with a lot to ride for so it does not surprise me the gaps were not like they would be racing Wiggins on a 60km flat course.

He either was, and is, or wasn't and isn't - I dont think he's got on it all of a sudden this year.

 

[Autobus]

So we have a battle of TT trainers. Weber gets 50(?) watts out of Rodriguez, but our other friend, San Millan says:

Many times the fastest position would not be really fast out there. They [the aerodynamicist] will tell you this position is going to give you three seconds per kilometer or 25 watts more power, but according to my data the position could imply a 30- or 35-watts lower output, so the net benefit could be a decrease by about 10 watts.

Now I'm certainly not saying that San Millan is the holder of all wisdom, but it just shows there are alternative explanations. These days I go with the belief that if it seems too good to be true it probably is. And anytime a correspondent says a rider gave the time trial of his career, especially a climber, I just sigh.

 

[mastersracer]

The Canyon bike has a much longer top tube by the looks of it - which allows him to get lower (as long bodied, short legged short dude I can relate) - but this is more difficult position to hold and you have to work on your core strength - although he is quite muscular so maybe he will get/got the benefit quickly once he had got the position more dialled.

I did not find yesterday's result surprising. Froome looked laboured and Contador looked spinny rather than powerful, the other two are good technically and with a lot to ride for so it does not surprise me the gaps were not like they would be racing Wiggins on a 60km flat course.

He either was, and is, or wasn't and isn't - I dont think he's got on it all of a sudden this year.

if you can't get long and low on a focus, you can't get long and low (my tt bike is a focus). The canyon does have a slightly longer reach (guessing he rides a small) but also 2.5cm higher stack. Whatever he's done to improve his position might be negated by that carrera helmet, which looks like a rudder sticking up into the air...

 

[_frost]

So we have a battle of TT trainers. Weber gets 50(?) watts out of Rodriguez, but our other friend, San Millan says:

Now I'm certainly not saying that San Millan is the holder of all wisdom, but it just shows there are alternative explanations. These days I go with the belief that if it seems too good to be true it probably is. And anytime a correspondent says a rider gave the time trial of his career, especially a climber, I just sigh.

That really is not wisdom of any kind. Anyone who has ever ridden a TT bike or even a normal road bike in a TT-position understands that at some point you start losing power and you have to find the optimum compromise of CdA and power. Equally clear is that body adapts that if you spend enough training hours in position where you originally lose say 30w you eventually maybe lose only 15w.

I don't see how what San Millan says points to any "alternative explanations".

 

[_frost]

if you can't get long and low on a focus, you can't get long and low (my tt bike is a focus). The canyon does have a slightly longer reach (guessing he rides a small) but also 2.5cm higher stack. Whatever he's done to improve his position might be negated by that carrera helmet, which looks like a rudder sticking up into the air...

You are right, that is definately not about the bike itself, but still his position on Focus isn't really good (to be exact it sucks).

 

[Autobus]

That really is not wisdom of any kind. Anyone who has ever ridden a TT bike or even a normal road bike in a TT-position understands that at some point you start losing power and you have to find the optimum compromise of CdA and power. Equally clear is that body adapts that if you spend enough training hours in position where you originally lose say 30w you eventually maybe lose only 15w.

I don't see how what San Millan says points to any "alternative explanations".

I'm just responding to Mr 38%'s comment that you can gain 50 Watts just from improved aerodynamics.

I think this is especially relavent for climbers who's climbing ability can suffer when they put more into their TT training. Andy Hampsten said in the early 90s that by working on his TT ability his climbing got worse. While I don't know if he was talking about absolute declines or just relative to other climbers, this was at the beginning of the EPO era. To improve your TT ability as Rodriguez has, have his climbing not suffer, and not give up anything to known dopers in my mind leaves the door open for alternative explanations.

 

[iZnoGouD]

if holds Contador on one of the next stages then you have enough evidence that he has doped big time

 

[131313]

Sorry not buying it.

What's not to buy? That better equipment and position actually matter in timed events, or that the course didn't favor him? I'm sorry, but you can't change physics, just because this is The Clinic...

It's ridiculous to put the difference in this TT down to doping alone. What, you think he just started doping for this Vuelta? He discovered some miracle drug that helps disproportionately in time trials? His position is WAY better, his equipment is better and the course was suited to a non-TT'r (note Martin's performance). I seriously doubt his doping regimen is any different that it has been over the last couple of years (whatever it may or may not be).

 

[131313]

To improve your TT ability as Rodriguez has, have his climbing not suffer, and not give up anything to known dopers in my mind leaves the door open for alternative explanations.

To the bolded part, there's absolutely no reason your climbing should suffer with an improving TT. An anecdote from Hampsten really doesn't mean much, particularly since his "loss in climbing" was in reality a loss relative to an increasingly doped field.

Climbing is about w/kg, TT'ing is about w/CdA. Why would decreasing your drag on your TT rig automatically make you lose power when riding your road bike.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

IMO, his better TTing doesn't have to be due to a change in programme. Most climbers should be able to, or at least have the potential to, ride a decent time trial. For both time trialists and climbers, your FTP is the most important thing. Really, JRod was the only example I could think of for a climber that couldn't at least put in a top 30 TT before this year.

 

[therhodeo]

if holds Contador on one of the next stages then you have enough evidence that he has doped big time

Yes if Purito who is having a great season holds on to Contador who just came back from a ban it is definitive proof that he dopes...........


Sometimes the ignorance in here amazes me.

 

[_frost]

I'm just responding to Mr 38%'s comment that you can gain 50 Watts just from improved aerodynamics.

(He was talking about 40w to be exact)
If you read what he wrote half of that was due to equipment change. It doesn't matter whether you are a climber, tter, sprinter or sunday rider, nothing San Millan or anyone says can take it away. The rest 20w due to position change might at least initially have effect to riders sustainable power output but is usually improved over time and even if not totally may (or may not) still be faster.

I think this is especially relavent for climbers who's climbing ability can suffer when they put more into their TT training. Andy Hampsten said in the early 90s that by working on his TT ability his climbing got worse. While I don't know if he was talking about absolute declines or just relative to other climbers, this was at the beginning of the EPO era. To improve your TT ability as Rodriguez has, have his climbing not suffer, and not give up anything to known dopers in my mind leaves the door open for alternative explanations.

I would be really interested to hear about the mechanism to explain that. Can you please enlighten a bit more?

 

[roundabout]

IMO, his better TTing doesn't have to be due to a change in programme. Most climbers should be able to, or at least have the potential to, ride a decent time trial. For both time trialists and climbers, your FTP is the most important thing. Really, JRod was the only example I could think of for a climber that couldn't at least put in a top 30 TT before this year.

I highly doubt that he has a huge FTP (for a rider of his weight). He certainly doesn't (or at least didn't) ride like he has the best w/kg of the bunch on long climbs.

He is also about 5 kilos lighter than Contador give or take. In theory, that's a lot of watts that he should be giving away.

 

[iZnoGouD]

Yes if Purito who is having a great season holds on to Contador who just came back from a ban it is definitive proof that he dopes...........


Sometimes the ignorance in here amazes me.

Contador is still uber strong and Purito is not getting tired

 

[_frost]

I highly doubt that he has a huge FTP (for a rider of his weight). He certainly doesn't (or at least didn't) ride like he has the best w/kg of the bunch on long climbs.

He is also about 5 kilos lighter than Contador give or take. In theory, that's a lot of watts that he should be giving away.

So, if he doesn't have a huge FTP then I would say his assumed doping program sucks and he should get his money back. Or is there a new secret form of doping that makes you go faster regardless of what kind of watts are produced?

 

[Mr.38%]

Referring to the title I said: Katushas equipment was a mess, rider positions were a mess. I remember when I was talking to my friend after he came back from Italy last year and he was like: "You cannot believe how bad they are, they are just ridicoulous without any clue". Again, SW was coming from HTC who were technologically really advanced with Teutenberg constantly testing stuff in Büttgen and bugging the sponsors, Tony being extremely open to changes such as running clinchers instead of tubulars, Giant and Scott producing cutting edge bikes and all this.

Whatever Purito is doing to improve his physical capabilities, it is of minor importance for his progress in time trialling performance. Time trialling, ignorants, got it?

Calling his all around performance highly suspicious would be an euphemism, though.

 

[roundabout]

So, if he doesn't have a huge FTP then I would say his assumed doping program sucks and he should get his money back. Or is there a new secret form of doping that makes you go faster regardless of what kind of watts are produced?

Come again?

He has become relatively better over longer sustained efforts. Question is whether it's because the others have become worse, he got better equipment, better coaching or he is doping.

 

[_frost]

Come again?

He has become relatively better over longer sustained efforts. Question is whether it's because the others have become worse, he got better equipment, better coaching or he is doping.

better over longer sustained efforts = higher FTP

No?

 

[Bicycle]

Any athlete apparently peaking at age 33 has to be suspect.