Rudy Pevenage: " I am shocked about the level of drug abuse by Armstrong gangsters"

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Mar 31, 2010
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roundabout said:
Really? You don't remember the rumors or his crushing performance in the Dauphine?

Or his abnormal values in 2008.

What about your "arguments"?
rumors? rumors are 90 bull**** his abnormal values in 2008? never heard of.

I do remember that even vaughters has said in the past moreau rode clean and even he couldn't believe it but he heard it from multiple guys.
 
Mar 17, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
Please show me any evidence, any source, any what so ever, that something was found with Ullrich at the Giro 2001.
I remember the case. They found products at many teams, amongst it Dr. Heinrich and Telekom rider Elli.

To be honest, I thought Lance would get away with his career, without no one ever f*cking him. That they **** him so much now, even more than Ulle in 2006, is somehow... justice. It´s a little bit like Saddam Hussein, like Osama, though Lance is far away from these two. The devils act, but in the end, get their punishment. These are good days, somehow.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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RHRH19861986 said:
I remember the case. They found products at many teams, amongst it Dr. Heinrich and Telekom rider Elli.
which prooves absolutely nothing except that elli was probbably using it
 
Mar 17, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
which prooves absolutely nothing except that elli was probbably using it
Yeah, Elli was later caught with HGH and insuline. Don´t know if Ulle doped during Giro 2001, Giro is three weeks in spring, normally three weeks at this time of the year don´t pass without that someone like him takes anything, everything as prep for the Tour, for sure.
 
JRTinMA said:
87 samples, 13 positive for EPO and 6 belonged to Armstrong. I don't think anybody knows how many people the remaining seven samples may have belonged to, as little as 1 additional person or as many as 7 I suppose. Lets say it was 2 additional people, so we had three dopers of all the usable samples at the 99 tour. I think second place deserves that win, odds are good they were clean.
Hamilton said that they (Him, Armstrong, Livigstone) didnt do EP during 3rd week of 99 Tour, because lead was safe.

I am looking from USADA files Appendix Q Annex 1 - these are doping tests from 1998 and 1999,

I am counting 12 postives for 1999 and and I counting that in 1999 there were 12 positives for EPO and 3 borderline cases.

For 1998 I am counting 23 positives and 6 borderline cases.

I am not sure how these tests are presented on these, but if by time taken, then 1998 samples are quite interesting: at first page you can see both red (positive) and green (negative), second page is totally red, and third page is cleanest of them all. It almost look likes that during first week you can see few clean riders (sprinters, stage hunter), second week when GC guys started kickinng if everything went read and third week (after festin, after protest, hotel searches), it turned gain cleaner.

Of course, it is just speculation.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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hrotha said:
I believe Ullrich was cleaner than the average GT contender in the early 00s, but no way I believe they were completely clean. No ****ing way.
^this :cool:

believe Pevenage for a second time, I can sell you a GW Bush quote:
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — [pauses] — shame on you. Fool me — [pauses] — You can't get fooled again.
 
Oct 11, 2010
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Some are saying Ullrich getting fat over winter is a rumor? Nah, that's a fact. He came into the 1998 Tour on a starvation diet because he was like 5kg over. Still almost won. He started the 2000 season 10kg over.

2004: "As usual, Jan is visibly carrying a few kilos too many," Merckx told German news agency DPA. "You can only conclude he hasn't worked hard enough."

As far as doping goes, he was a junkie like all the others. No question he was more talented than Lance, but he lacked the killer instinct. With Lance's professionalism Ullrich would have won 5 or more Tours. Probably the biggest waste of talent cycling has ever seen.
 
Altitude said:
Some are saying Ullrich getting fat over winter is a rumor? Nah, that's a fact. He came into the 1998 Tour on a starvation diet because he was like 5kg over. Still almost won. He started the 2000 season 10kg over.

2004: "As usual, Jan is visibly carrying a few kilos too many," Merckx told German news agency DPA. "You can only conclude he hasn't worked hard enough."

As far as doping goes, he was a junkie like all the others. No question he was more talented than Lance, but he lacked the killer instinct. With Lance's professionalism Ullrich would have won 5 or more Tours. Probably the biggest waste of talent cycling has ever seen.
Do you think Jan doped in the off season whilst gaining that weight?

Lance was very professional with his dope in the off-season.
 
Mar 17, 2012
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thehog said:
Do you think Jan doped in the off season whilst gaining that weight?

Lance was very professional with his dope in the off-season.
Jan did quite a lot leg press and so on in winter. Therfore, he might have used the right steroids. If you use nandrolone, for example, you gain muscle, but also pull water and little bit of fat. Combined with his cortisone, and maybe not nutritioning properly in the off-season, you quickly gain 8-12 kgs. This might have been the case with Jan.

In spring from March till June then, you stop the (depot) steroids, switch to shorter lasting steroids, increase HGH and add T3 and T4 in June, to get body fat down to 4-6 % (combined with proper nutrition).

That works. Read somewhere Peve called Fuentes to send Jan stuff to enable him to lose 8kgs within 4 weeks. With HGH plus T3 and T4, this works well. The doses should be 2-8 IEs of GH and about 20 mcgs of T3 plus 100-200 of T4 (for the Americans here, you know T3 as "Cytomel", in Europe athletes take Greek "Ti-Tre" for example; Ulle might have had T4 via Spanish "Levotiroxina").

Quite possible he already did Hemopure while training each December in South Africa. Hemopure is available uniquely there, can´t be detected, and is useful because he might have started to store blood already in December. So it´s better to have high Hct before losing 500ml blood, and the high Hct is reached by Hemopure then.

There´s so much science behind all this, it´s fascinating. Guys like Ferrari or Fuentes are no devils, these are smart and intelligent people.

The regular December South Africa group contained of Ullrich, Klöden, Kessler, Hondo, Haselbacher and Wrolich; always three to 3,5 weeks, till Christmas or New Years Eve.

I, however, have to say doing Hemopure is hardcore. Hemopure is the stuff also Michael Rasmussen had approach to; it´s a veterinary product, made for aenemic dogs, and should be given only once, never repeatedly.
 
Bavarianrider said:
"Ich erinnere mich an die Tour 2001, Jan war wirklich in sehr guter Form, vielleicht so gut wie nie - und dabei sauber. Aber es war nichts auszurichten, Armstrong spielte mit ihm, es war abstoßend"

"I remember the Tour in 2001, Jan was really in a very good form, maybe his best ever- and he was clean. But there was abolutely no chance, Armstrong played with him, it was disgusting"

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/pevenage-telekom-jahrelang-sauber-103422327.html
Armstrong never had an ounce of class...Jan had heaps.
Ulle had a ton of natural talent. A nice human being too.
:)
 
Oct 8, 2012
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It's a total myth that Ulrich had more talent and Armstrong had more work ethic and that was the difference between the two. As we are learning, the real difference, was that Armstrong had the resources, and a team full of dopers. And the biggest difference. Ferrari.
 
May 26, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
Please show me any evidence, any source, any what so ever, that something was found with Ullrich at the Giro 2001.
I'm sorry, but the history of both the Team, his mentors and his own history simply make the "He was clean, there is no proof otherwise" really naive.

Jan is a truly nice guy as the video's show and relatively approachable(shook his hand once). I'm a huge fan. But pro-cycling is pro-cycling. Jan has been mired in a doping environment from the start.

Difference being he got introduced there, whereas Lance seems to have (very) actively managed his own structure to the detriment of young riders.

Morally Jan comes out much, much better. But to call him clean in any year is a stretch. The best we can do is put an asterisk behind the year.
 
My knowledge of Cycling talent, speed, cadence and how it relates to doping and who may or may not have doped in the last 15-20 years is rather limited, but what we now know (or at least basics of it), it's still hard to definitely say who of the top riders were clean (if any) and for how long. That said, as some have mentioned here, Jan really does seem to be a great guy and really during his own doping investigations, hasn't thrown others under the bus and certainly has never threatened anyone and tried to sue them, defame them or even threaten them at a restaurant. One thing I think he probably regrets most is not staying in shape in the off season and starting to pour on the training so close to the big races. I would love to someday find out that he was clean or compared to the other tour riders, clean, in some of his TDF years, but it's hard for me to see that right now. Clean or not, Ullrich looked very good in 2001, but Armstrong was attacking him and everyone else at will. If there is one tour (and perhaps 2003) that I would like to go to Ullrich, is 2001.
 
Jul 1, 2009
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I really think Jan was massively talented and could/would win the Tour repeatedly in a clean era, and he has always seemed like a very likable guy, totally different from a certain sociopath.

I also believe that he was on less juice than Lance, maybe even much less, but I do not think he was totally clean. Just no. His team was full of juicers.

So he is no hero like those who never doped.

But he was/is a very classy rider and a classy guy.
 
Franklin said:
I'm sorry, but the history of both the Team, his mentors and his own history simply make the "He was clean, there is no proof otherwise" really naive.

Jan is a truly nice guy as the video's show and relatively approachable(shook his hand once). I'm a huge fan. But pro-cycling is pro-cycling. Jan has been mired in a doping environment from the start.

Difference being he got introduced there, whereas Lance seems to have (very) actively managed his own structure to the detriment of young riders.

Morally Jan comes out much, much better. But to call him clean in any year is a stretch. The best we can do is put an asterisk behind the year.
So you can decide who is clean and who is not?
Matter of fact is that there is no piece of evidence, no statement of any rider or doctor which would link Ullrich to doping in 2000 and 2001.
Nobody denies 96-98 and 03-06, but at least for 00-01 there isn't simply anything you could throw in against Jan.
 
May 26, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
So you can decide who is clean and who is not?
Errrrr what have you been drinking lately?

I dont' claim anything, I just point out some facts and match my expectations.
You are the one who is deciding who is clean and who isn't.
 
Franklin said:
Errrrr what have you been drinking lately?

I dont' claim anything, I just point out some facts and match my expectations.
You are the one who is deciding who is clean and who isn't.
No no.
I only think it's unfair to totally neglect the idea that Ullrich was clean in 2000 and 2001 when you don't really have anything againt him.
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Altitude said:
Some are saying Ullrich getting fat over winter is a rumor? Nah, that's a fact. He came into the 1998 Tour on a starvation diet because he was like 5kg over. Still almost won. He started the 2000 season 10kg over.

2004: "As usual, Jan is visibly carrying a few kilos too many," Merckx told German news agency DPA. "You can only conclude he hasn't worked hard enough."

As far as doping goes, he was a junkie like all the others. No question he was more talented than Lance, but he lacked the killer instinct. With Lance's professionalism Ullrich would have won 5 or more Tours. Probably the biggest waste of talent cycling has ever seen.
do I need to point out that basiclaly all riders start winter or even season with a number of kg overweight? especially the climbers and gt riders. often as much as 5 kg. lance not excepted
 
Mar 31, 2010
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Kwibus said:
Like Pevenage is the guy we should believe....
it could be a lot saver to assume he wasn't doping anymore after 98 festina and all the **** voet wrote about him. I'm sure he was scared ****less and in 99 there definitely was a short change and all was a lot cleaner. then came lance...
 
May 26, 2010
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I think to argue for Ullrich as a winner of any of the races is a non starter.

If Ullrich wants to write a detailed 'secret race' type book outlining when, where and how he raced and told us that he did not dope during certain races, great look forward to reading that.

But I think Ullrich looks back at that era as a missed opportunity for cycling. He was as much part of the problem as nearly all the others that maintained their silence, so it would not be be right for him to come out and say he won this or that inthe media, but to release a book where he details those years he started in the Former East Germany right up to 2006, well then if he did race clean he would have a small moral victory but not much more.
 
May 26, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
No no.
I only think it's unfair to totally neglect the idea that Ullrich was clean in 2000 and 2001 when you don't really have anything againt him.
My words: "The best we can do is put an asterisk behind that year". ;)
 
May 26, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
If Ullrich wants to write a detailed 'secret race' type book outlining when, where and how he raced and told us that he did not dope during certain races, great look forward to reading that.
I hope he doesn't. He doesn't need this mess and from my impression if he get sucked into this again he will only come out wounded and unhappy.
 
Bavarianrider said:
No no.
I only think it's unfair to totally neglect the idea that Ullrich was clean in 2000 and 2001 when you don't really have anything againt him.
After winning a Tour doped, and not see any punishment for that as yet, don't expect medals for the moment you momentarily quit doping with your mouth still shut.
I like Jan very much, but he's no white knight. I can come up with mutiple metaphores to describe it, but they're quite tasteless. As suits the act of doping in pro sports, deceiving millions of fans.
 
Jun 25, 2009
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halamala said:
Jan Ullrich

Tour de France 2001, Stage 10, Alpe d'Huez


Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 1 119 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 13.8 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2404 = 40 min 04 sec = 40:04
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 8.1 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 20.6 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 434.4 Watt
Power / kg : 6.03 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]



"Jan was really in a very good form, maybe his best ever" -Rudy Pevenage
Jan Ullrich

Tour de France 2001

Stage 11, Ax-3-Domaines

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 664 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 8.9 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1410 = 23 min 30 sec = 23:39
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 7.4 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 22.7 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 456.2 Watt
Power / kg : 6.34 Watt / kg


Stage 12, Chamrousse

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 1 300 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 18.5 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2916 = 48 min 36 sec = 48:36
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 7.0 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 22.8 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 437.5 Watt
Power / kg : 6.08 Watt / kg


Stage 13, Pla d'Adet

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 850 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 10.2 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 1848 = 30 min 48 sec = 30:48
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 8.3 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 19.8 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 424.0 Watt
Power / kg : 5.89 Watt / kg


Stage 14, Luz Ardiden

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 979 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 13.3 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 2308 = 38 min 28 sec = 38:28
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 7.3 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 20.7 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 402.6 Watt
Power / kg : 5.59 Watt / kg

Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]
 

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