Rudy Pevenage: " I am shocked about the level of drug abuse by Armstrong gangsters"

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the asian said:
In a conversation between Vaughters and Frankie Andreau, in 2002 JV says that according to Peloton rumour Ulrich's HCT level never rose above 42.

I think we can believe that Ulrich toned down his doping after Festina, and only went full scale after he hooked up with Fuentes quite possibly in 2003.

Also agree that Ulrich was also a big natural talent so he would not need to be on a doping program to the same extent as Lance in order to succeed.

Also i believe after the new EPO test was developed in 2000 riders would have been more cautious in their EPO and until blood doping became widespread with the availability of Fuentes to a majority of cyclists,it could have been quite possible to ride a top ten in the Tour clean.

Certainly the Top 10 in the Tour between 1999-2002 are not as notorious as the top 10 between 2003-2005.

Furthermore among the retested urine samples of the 99 Tour, of the 81 Urine samples that were not Armstrong's only 7 tested positive for EPO, whereas 6 of 15 Armstrong samples tested positive, so o2 vector doping may have not been as widespread as people assume in the years 1999-2001 specially after the Festina scandal.
87 samples, 13 positive for EPO and 6 belonged to Armstrong. I don't think anybody knows how many people the remaining seven samples may have belonged to, as little as 1 additional person or as many as 7 I suppose. Lets say it was 2 additional people, so we had three dopers of all the usable samples at the 99 tour. I think second place deserves that win, odds are good they were clean.
 
Mar 17, 2012
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Ullrich certainly wasn´t cleaner than Armstrong, in general. Just look at the substances and methods (in Armstrong´s case, I can never believe that he did "just" what is published now, there must have been far more):

Armstrong: EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone (in fact Testosterone Undecanoate (Andriol), which doesn´t have that big effect, just like maybe Testogel), Cortisone, Actovegin.

Ullrich: EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone, four (!!) different kinds of other anabolic steroids (one has never read what exactly, but being endurance athlete, I suppose it might be, for example, Nandrolone, Boldenone, Chlordehydromethyltestosterone and Oxandrolone), HGH, Insuline, Thyroid hormones T3 and T4, Cortisone.

So Pevenage is just wrong when he calls the others "gangsters". The only thing where Ullrich was different is that he and Peve likely wouldn´t have forced others to take something to be on the Tour team. Pinotti joined T-Mobile in 2007, when Ullrich was gone, but I´m sure, if Pinotti would´ve been part of the team before 2007, and would´ve had the shape, he would´ve been allowed to do the Tour cleanly.

Ullrich had Cecchini, Heinrich, Schmidt, Fuentes, Merino Batres, Choina, ..., Armtrong had Ferrari, Del Moral, Celaya, Marti, Viane, ... . I think you can compare the two, they were quite equal. Still, I think Armstrong was not only on EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone and Cortisone. There was always rumour about him having advantages from his cancer, by having the chance to get TUEs for treating problems caused by the cancer in the years after being ill.
If all this which was published now is true and all, then he would have had a drug regime similar to Jaksche, who wasn´t class A client of Fuentes.
 
JRTinMA said:
87 samples, 13 positive for EPO and 6 belonged to Armstrong. I don't think anybody knows how many people the remaining seven samples may have belonged to, as little as 1 additional person or as many as 7 I suppose. Lets say it was 2 additional people, so we had three dopers of all the usable samples at the 99 tour. I think second place deserves that win, odds are good they were clean.
96 samples.

Yes we don't know how many tested positive, but the maximum would be 8 including Armstrong.

Of course they may have used HGH, Testosterone and other stuff, but EPO use was certainly by the minority.

Also I think it would have been risky to have done transfusions that year.

Are there any stories of blood doping by the other teams for the 99 Tour?
 
RHRH19861986 said:
Ullrich certainly wasn´t cleaner than Armstrong, in general. Just look at the substances and methods (in Armstrong´s case, I can never believe that he did "just" what is published now, there must have been far more):

Armstrong: EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone (in fact Testosterone Undecanoate (Andriol), which doesn´t have that big effect, just like maybe Testogel), Cortisone, Actovegin.

Ullrich: EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone, four (!!) different kinds of other anabolic steroids (one has never read what exactly, but being endurance athlete, I suppose it might be, for example, Nandrolone, Boldenone, Chlordehydromethyltestosterone and Oxandrolone), HGH, Insuline, Thyroid hormones T3 and T4, Cortisone.

So Pevenage is just wrong when he calls the others "gangsters". The only thing where Ullrich was different is that he and Peve likely wouldn´t have forced others to take something to be on the Tour team. Pinotti joined T-Mobile in 2007, when Ullrich was gone, but I´m sure, if Pinotti would´ve been part of the team before 2007, and would´ve had the shape, he would´ve been allowed to do the Tour cleanly.
The issue is whether Ulrich was clean between 99-2001/02. No one doubts he was on a full scale program with Fuentes, but the period after 98 and before Fuentes is a grey area
 
JRTinMA said:
87 samples, 13 positive for EPO and 6 belonged to Armstrong. I don't think anybody knows how many people the remaining seven samples may have belonged to, as little as 1 additional person or as many as 7 I suppose. Lets say it was 2 additional people, so we had three dopers of all the usable samples at the 99 tour. I think second place deserves that win, odds are good they were clean.
Maybe most teams didn't bring drugs to France but they doped before the Tour and benefitted from it.
 
Jun 13, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
How do you know if Once used Epo or blood doping that year?
Your very own Joerg Jaksche testified that Pedro Celaya engaged in doping practices during his time at ONCE. It's in the USADA report.

I'm sorry to break that to you. I know it hurts, but you can't change your view when your countrymen or favourite team is involved. 'twas a dark era and there is no black and white.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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the asian said:
The issue is whether Ulrich was clean between 99-2001/02. No one doubts he was on a full scale program with Fuentes, but the period after 98 and before Fuentes is a grey area
Save 2003, Ullrich's Tour results and performances weren't really any better after 2002, when he supposedly started doping again, versus 2000/2001, when he was supposedly clean. So if what Pevenage is saying is true, then doping didn't seem to have much effect on Ullrich (if anything, again with the exception of 2003, Ullrich didn't ride nearly as well after he supposedly started doping). Or was everyone clean save Armstrong in 2000/2001 and the rest only started (or re-started) doping again in 2002? Not likely.

And he won Olympic RR gold and ITT silver (2000) and World's ITT gold (2001) while clean? Also not likely.
 
Mar 17, 2012
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the asian said:
The issue is whether Ulrich was clean between 99-2001/02. No one doubts he was on a full scale program with Fuentes, but the period after 98 and before Fuentes is a grey area
Three or four years can be a long time. Someone like Ullrich, who has been socialized through doping, who grew up in Eastern Germany, who just couldn´t think of a cycling without taking anything, wouldn´t have spent three or four years riding clean.
After 2006, in early 2007, he did a training camp on Mallorca with Klöden, Kessler, other mates. He saw, nothing changed, then he preferred to stop instead of riding cleanly.
He was world champion in 1999, Vuelta winner, and his performances in the Tours of 2000 and 2001, IMHO, were extraordinary. He joined Fuentes in 2003, so I suppose in the years before, from 1996-2002, he just was in Freiburg.
 
RHRH19861986 said:
Three or four years can be a long time. Someone like Ullrich, who has been socialized through doping, who grew up in Eastern Germany, who just couldn´t think of a cycling without taking anything, wouldn´t have spent three or four years riding clean.
After 2006, in early 2007, he did a training camp on Mallorca with Klöden, Kessler, other mates. He saw, nothing changed, then he preferred to stop instead of riding cleanly.
He was world champion in 1999, Vuelta winner, and his performances in the Tours of 2000 and 2001, IMHO, were extraordinary. He joined Fuentes in 2003, so I suppose in the years before, from 1996-2002, he just was in Freiburg.
Ullrich was 15en when the GDR collapsed.:rolleyes:

Ullrich performances in 99-2001 were much weaker compared to 1997.
 
Bavarianrider said:
Ullrich was not on full Fuentes scale until 2006
This is proven by phone calls of Pevenage
In 2003-2005 he was but didn't have the whole packgage.
Ullrich would have crushed everything in 06.
....as would have Basso. (Actually he did!)
 
Mar 17, 2012
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Bavarianrider said:
Ullrich performances in 99-2001 were much weaker compared to 1997.
Due to his general approach. He had won the biggest race he could, aged 23, became millionaire quickly, had wrong people around him. He lost hunger for success.

Armstrong wanted the "5", later the "6" and "7", Ullrich had his "1", was first German to win the Tour.
 
VeloCity said:
. Or was everyone clean save Armstrong in 2000/2001 and the rest only started (or re-started) doping again in 2002? Not likely.

And he won Olympic RR gold and ITT silver (2000) and World's ITT gold (2001) while clean? Also not likely.
By clean, I mean without EPO use or Blood doping.

RHRH19861986 said:
so I suppose in the years before, from 1996-2002, he just was in Freiburg.
Very possible. In fact I forgot about Freiburg when thinking about doping docs other than Ferrari, Del Moral, Celaya and Fuentes.:eek:

I do however maintain my opinion that the peloton was less dirtier between 1999-2001 than in 2002-2005.
 
RHRH19861986 said:
Due to his general approach. He had won the biggest race he could, aged 23, became millionaire quickly, had wrong people around him. He lost hunger for success.

Armstrong wanted the "5", later the "6" and "7", Ullrich had his "1", was first German to win the Tour.
That's bull**** sorry.
Ullrich in 2001 was in brilliant shape and the best condition of his live.
He was simply lacking the juice
 
Oct 13, 2010
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Bavarianrider said:
"Ich erinnere mich an die Tour 2001, Jan war wirklich in sehr guter Form, vielleicht so gut wie nie - und dabei sauber. Aber es war nichts auszurichten, Armstrong spielte mit ihm, es war abstoßend"

"I remember the Tour in 2001, Jan was really in a very good form, maybe his best ever- and he was clean. But there was abolutely no chance, Armstrong played with him, it was disgusting"

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/pevenage-telekom-jahrelang-sauber-103422327.html

It always amazes me when someone says, no way! Never, never, never about doping in the cycling racket. There are times in a marriage when even the mates don't know what each other is doing and they share the same bed. How can the coach, sportif, or manager say he was clean, or I'm 100% sure Wiggins was clean? Are they kidding. The rider could always be going behind the coach's back and the coach could always be spiking the player. The big choad wasn't the only one who had doping techiques. now the Sky has gotten their TDF win they're letting Leifers(sp) go. Yeah Right! Treat the guy like a $2 hooker.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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Bavarianrider said:
Ullrich in 2001 was in brilliant shape and the best condition of his live.
Says who? Pevenage?

And why then did Ullrich's performance level basically stay the same and even dropped when he was doping, ie 2004-05? Basically you're saying that Ullrich was stronger clean in 2001 than when doping in 2004/2005.

And what, Ullrich doped from 1996-99, stopped for a couple of years, and then started up again in 2002? And for those two years, Ullrich wasn't part of the Telekom team doping program that, according to d'Hont, started in 1996?
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Robert21 said:
The quotes about Ullrich trying to race clean in the years after the Festina scandal ties in quite well with the following:



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

So the idea that after Festina there was a will to bring about change, but this was blown out of the water by Armstrong, does seem to be credible.
That was the kicker for me. I was so disappointed, I couldn't even follow The Tour for most of a decade.

It went from "Finally! This sh*t is getting done!", to "For the love of Jesus! You gotta be f*cking kidding me!".
 
Oct 8, 2012
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Note: Rudy didn't say that he was shocked by the drug abuse by Armstrong's gangsters, but that he was shocked by the "level" of drug abuse by Armstrong's gangsters.
 

airstream

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Mar 29, 2011
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RHRH19861986 said:
Ullrich had Cecchini, Heinrich, Schmidt, Fuentes, Merino Batres, Choina, ..., Armtrong had Ferrari, Del Moral, Celaya, Marti, Viane, ... . I think you can compare the two, they were quite equal. Still, I think Armstrong was not only on EPO, Blood Bags, Testosterone and Cortisone. There was always rumour about him having advantages from his cancer, by having the chance to get TUEs for treating problems caused by the cancer in the years after being ill. If all this which was published now is true and all, then he would have had a drug regime similar to Jaksche, who wasn´t class A client of Fuentes.
It looks like Merino Batres' assistance turned out to be fatal in the 2004 Tour. Apparently, the oldie forgot something once again... :cool: I don't believe in pharmacological Armstrong's edge. that were victories of bigger investments, better logistics, planning and discipline, sometimes luck, but not better doping itself.
 
VeloCity said:
Says who? Pevenage?

And why then did Ullrich's performance level basically stay the same and even dropped when he was doping, ie 2004-05? Basically you're saying that Ullrich was stronger clean in 2001 than when doping in 2004/2005.

And what, Ullrich doped from 1996-99, stopped for a couple of years, and then started up again in 2002? And for those two years, Ullrich wasn't part of the Telekom team doping program that, according to d'Hont, started in 1996?
Ulrich and Hamilton, both clients of Fuentes suffered because of a bad blood bag in 2004.
 
airstream said:
It looks like Merino Batres' assistance turned out to be fatal in the 2004 Tour. Apparently, the oldie forgot something once again... :cool: I don't believe in pharmacological Armstrong's edge. that were victories of bigger investments, better logistics, planning and discipline, sometimes luck, but not better doping itself.
And the lack of fear knowing that even if something goes wrong, you can buy your way out of it.
 

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