SA racing scene / anti-doping (SAIDS) / Minolta / Barloworld

[sniper]

Re: SA racing scene / anti-doping (SAIDS) / Minolta / Barlow

If I had a child who was into cycling I wouldnt send him/her there to be trained. The Michael van Staden incident back in the day and everything surrounding it would be enough to not send them.

interesting, cheers. I was about to post about Van Staden. Will do so later.

But if I knew he was the Olympic Road manager I would cause then you are basically guaranteed a spot on the Olympic SA Team or any National SA Road Team....

i don't quite get this sentence. could you reformulate?

 

[sniper]

@GW15something:
in your view, is it fair to assume that most with a bit of an inside connection to the South African cycling scene know about the case of Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

 

[GW15something]

Re:

@GW15something:
in your view, is it fair to assume that most with a bit of an inside connection to the South African cycling scene know about the case of Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

I have no idea in the world what the people think. I unable to speak for anyone and will not do so either.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

@GW15something:
in your view, is it fair to assume that most with a bit of an inside connection to the South African cycling scene know about the case of Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

I have no idea in the world what the people think. I unable to speak for anyone and will not do so either.

that's funny.
in your previous post you gave quite the opposite impression.
viewtopic.php?p=1849347#p1849347

There is nothing to discuss other than you are soooo far from the truth on this its scary. I know these subjects you speaking of very very well.

This has nothing to do with Dr Swart - in fact he was as suprised as the SA community about the ruling as CSA did it with no knowledge to anyone involved.

More generally, you seemed quite able/willing to speak on behalf of Swart.
So maybe I should rephrase: do you think is it fair to assume that Swart (e.g. in his capacity as member of SA antidoping commision) knew/knows about Austin and Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

 

[GW15something]

Re: Re:

@GW15something:
in your view, is it fair to assume that most with a bit of an inside connection to the South African cycling scene know about the case of Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

I have no idea in the world what the people think. I unable to speak for anyone and will not do so either.

that's funny.
in your previous post you gave quite the opposite impression.
viewtopic.php?p=1849347#p1849347

There is nothing to discuss other than you are soooo far from the truth on this its scary. I know these subjects you speaking of very very well.

This has nothing to do with Dr Swart - in fact he was as suprised as the SA community about the ruling as CSA did it with no knowledge to anyone involved.

More generally, you seemed quite able/willing to speak on behalf of Swart.
So maybe I should rephrase: do you think is it fair to assume that Swart (e.g. in his capacity as member of SA antidoping commision) knew/knows about Austin and Van Staden and Austin's involvement?

Sniper let me help you understand something without you trying to put words into my mouth or sickly twist my post(s) to make something out that it is not.

The impression is nothing different because they 2 totally separate topics. I was posting about the knowledge of SA in regards to the Impey case - you asked me about the Van Staden case which I replied I have no idea what they think. Please do not think 1 answer is the right answer for any question you ask me.

I do not in any way answer on behalf of Dr Swart - he is and has shown he is more than capable of handling his own line of questions so again, please don't make stuff up to suite your own agenda here and put words into my mouth. That case was so long ago I honestly doubt Dr Swart was even finished his Medical Degree when that all went down never mind be sitting on Anti doping but I think you have already decided to paint him as corrupt and not doing anything in that case?

The connection you looking for, what is it? Did Dr Swart turn a blind eye and not let anything happen? Was the drug supplied by Austin as his coach? Or is it just coincidence that they knew each other and worked together but was van Staden getting it somewhere else etc? If these answers were out there the required people would of been dealt with I believe.

Sniper I don't know what you looking for or what hunt you on but do not put words into my mouth or try twist posts of mine to suite your agenda.
Please don't ask me to reply to you again due to the way to take posts and do the above.
Thank you.

 

[Ferminal]

Good thread... although the dodginess of Barloworld is clear I think it's more uncertain the extent to which the team was run that way prior to the Italian influence.

You may be able to link managers like Ryder and Robertson to suspect riders but their actual involvement is unknown. Like any domestic scene there are probably only a couple of doping networks and difficult to know who the key players are (if any).

 

[sniper]

Re:

Good thread... although the dodginess of Barloworld is clear I think it's more uncertain the extent to which the team was run that way prior to the Italian influence.

You may be able to link managers like Ryder and Robertson to suspect riders but their actual involvement is unknown. Like any domestic scene there are probably only a couple of doping networks and difficult to know who the key players are (if any).

Ever heard of Barry Austin? Cycling manager and key player in the SA cycling scene. Still one of the driving forces, and was there at the start of both Barloworld and Konica Minolta.
http://www.ride.co.za/people/being-barry/

It all starts with Michael Van Staden, youngest ever positive for EPO. Trained by Barry Austin.
Van Staden was let off the hook by CSA with a one-year ban (instead of two) as he was able to make a convincing case that he didn’t deliberately took EPO, but that either his coach (Barry Austin) or his team doc had injected it into him without him knowing.
Now, three persons (Van Staden’s father, Barry Austin and the team doc) were asked to do a liedetector test in relation to Van Staden’s positive and his claim that someone else had injected it. Guess who refused to take it? Exactly, Austin. The other two passed the test. Read all about it: http://www.news24.com/xArchive/Sport/MoreSport/JP-to-boost-cycling-in-Africa-20050217

But Van Staden was just the start. Herman Fouche got popped for testosteron in 2009 riding for Neotel, managed by Barry Austin. http://www.iol.co.za/sport/csa-slap-two-year-ban-on-fouche-598418
Sat out a two year ban and came back riding for Team Bonitas, manager: Barry Austin.

Then Nolan Hoffman: He too rode for Neotel under Barry Austin and tested positive for testosterone in 2009/10(?). http://www.crank.co.za/nolan-hoffman-tests-positive-for-doping/1589
Was suspended two years by SA cycling, but came back and won silver at the 2012 track WM in the scratch.

Fast forward to 2013: Peter Seyffert, tests positive while riding for…Barry Austin (Team Bonitas):
http://www.bicycling.co.za/news-people/local-news-news-people/sa-ridertests-positive/

So that's no less than four positives in a period of ca. 8-9 years for riders riding for Austin, including the youngest ever EPO positive in the shape of Van Staden.

To make a bridge to Froome: remember John Lee Augustyn? In Vavafroome he's portrayed as Froome's closest (training) buddy when they raced together in SA as well as during Froome’s first years in Europe (both riding for Konica, Barlo, Sky).
Interestingly, Augustyn’s first coach was a certain Barry Austin.

John-Lee raced his first international event as a junior cyclist under the management of Barry Austin. "I have known Barry Austin since I started my Pro career...”
doitnow.mobi/content/john-lee-augustyn-guide-and-inspire-next-generation#sthash.YDxsZ5kH.dpuf

And after his retirement from procycling, Augustyn ended up working with...Barry Austin: http://www.leadoutcycling.co.za/about-us.html.

p.s. another protege/discovery of Austin's is Louis Meintjes.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

Ever heard of Barry Austin? Cycling manager and key player in the SA cycling scene. Still one of the driving forces, and was there at the start of both Barloworld and Konica Minolta.
http://www.ride.co.za/people/being-barry/

It all starts..............

To make a bridge to Froome: remember John Lee Augustyn? In Vavafroome he's portrayed as Froome's closest (training) buddy when they raced together in SA as well as during Froome’s first years in Europe (both riding for Konica, Barlo, Sky)................

Excellent post. Some serious stuff going on there under the radar in SA. Van Staden sounds like Strock and Kaiter. Why didn't the SA Fed want to get to the bottom of it all - who injected him ? Was he telling lies ? Did they not dig because they did not want to discover that he did know what was being injected and that unravelled one hell of a lot more ? People don't look when they don't want to find out.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Good thread... although the dodginess of Barloworld is clear I think it's more uncertain the extent to which the team was run that way prior to the Italian influence.

You may be able to link managers like Ryder and Robertson to suspect riders but their actual involvement is unknown. Like any domestic scene there are probably only a couple of doping networks and difficult to know who the key players are (if any).

they are only entrants in the arms race of cycling, and international rugby union

and see their sprint swimming team, not normal again. and their cricket team

but they are not doing anything other countries are not doing...

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Ever heard of Barry Austin? Cycling manager and key player in the SA cycling scene. Still one of the driving forces, and was there at the start of both Barloworld and Konica Minolta.
http://www.ride.co.za/people/being-barry/

It all starts..............

To make a bridge to Froome: remember John Lee Augustyn? In Vavafroome he's portrayed as Froome's closest (training) buddy when they raced together in SA as well as during Froome’s first years in Europe (both riding for Konica, Barlo, Sky)................

Excellent post. Some serious stuff going on there under the radar in SA. Van Staden sounds like Strock and Kaiter. Why didn't the SA Fed want to get to the bottom of it all - who injected him ? Was he telling lies ? Did they not dig because they did not want to discover that he did know what was being injected and that unravelled one hell of a lot more ? People don't look when they don't want to find out.

Exactly, 16 years old for crying out loud!

It all starts with Michael Van Staden, youngest ever positive for EPO. Trained by Barry Austin.
Van Staden was let off the hook by CSA with a one-year ban (instead of two) as he was able to make a convincing case that he didn’t deliberately took EPO, but that either his coach (Barry Austin) or his team doc had injected it into him without him knowing.

Now, three persons (Van Staden’s father, Barry Austin and the team doc) were asked to do a liedetector test in relation to Van Staden’s positive and his claim that someone else had injected it. Guess who refused to take it? Exactly, Austin. The other two passed the test. Read all about it:

http://www.news24.com/xArchive/Sport/MoreSport/JP-to-boost-cycling-in-Africa-20050217

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Exactly, 16 years old for crying out loud!

it doesn't bode well for the SA cycling scene.
Not just Van Staden, Augustyn and Meintjes had Austin as their first coach.
Countless SA juniors seem to have gone through the hands of Barry Austin. From the "being Barry" article linked above:

The year after that we had a small sponsorship from Barloworld. We also moved the academy to Heidelberg, Gauteng. That junior team won the team prize and KOM (Jacques) in the Tour de Lorraine World Cup. We were very prominent in many other races, with plenty of top-10 finishes by Jaco Venter, Jacques, Johann Rabe and Herman Fouche. We also had the first female Director Sportif in my wife, Ciska, who played a pivotal role in the [u]junior teams [/u]while I also had to manage the Pro Teams of Konica Minolta and later Excel (Neotel).

The year after that (2006) it was Konica Minolta and we won the Giro del Capo with Peter Velits ahead of Barloworld. The team’s average age was 19.

Also running at the same time was the Tekton junior team with Reinardt Janse van Rensburg, Bradley Potgieter and David Maree.

After that it was Garmin Juniors, with the likes of Johann van Zyl and Christopher Jennings. Chris won stage five of the Tour du Pays de Vaud in Switzerland and Johann won stage one at the Vuelta al Besaya in Spain.

That was the last of the teams on which I worked before I started full-time at Cycling SA where I only used connections to place my coached riders such as Louis Meintjes and Johann van Zyl.

My time on CSA’s Road Commission felt like it held promise in the beginning due to the belief in my long-term planning by the then road commissioner, Hendrik Lemmer. I wanted to invest in young talent by assisting with expenses if they joined international teams, thus making them cheaper to hire while they got the experience.
http://www.ride.co.za/people/being-barry/#sthash.JUKQwfoR.dpuf

From the LEADout website (the company that also employs Augusytyn):

Barry's passion is to develop young riders to their full potential, with his sights set on assisting riders to become leading players in the international arena of cycling.
http://www.leadoutcycling.co.za/about-us.html

not reassuring.

 

[BARRY]

They say it is always a losing battle when one gets involved here, but just to recheck facts:
Lie detector test done. Published in Beeld Newspaper on 7 Feb 2005. Searches don't find it as in Afrikaans. Hard copy of report handed to Mr Willemse at the Managers Meeting of the then Giro del Capo.
Fouche actually tested positive the end of the year before he came to Neotel, but was sanctioned early in the year when after joined Neotel.
Left Neotel and coach and manager in March. Hoffman tested positive in October, 7 months later.
Was the manager at Bonitas when Seyffert tested positive. Had nothing to do with his positive test..
Am sure it won't stop the theories, but just a fact recheck....

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

They say it is always a losing battle when one gets involved here, but just to recheck facts:
Lie detector test done. Published in Beeld Newspaper on 7 Feb 2005. Searches don't find it as in Afrikaans. Hard copy of report handed to Mr Willemse at the Managers Meeting of the then Giro del Capo.
Fouche actually tested positive the end of the year before he came to Neotel, but was sanctioned early in the year when after joined Neotel.
Left Neotel and coach and manager in March. Hoffman tested positive in October, 7 months later.
Was the manager at Bonitas when Seyffert tested positive. Had nothing to do with his positive test..
Am sure it won't stop the theories, but just a fact recheck....

Lie detector test???? MAJOR FAIL and using it to prove something is so sad.

 

[beatthatrat]

Re: Re:

They say it is always a losing battle when one gets involved here, but just to recheck facts:
Lie detector test done. Published in Beeld Newspaper on 7 Feb 2005. Searches don't find it as in Afrikaans. Hard copy of report handed to Mr Willemse at the Managers Meeting of the then Giro del Capo.
Fouche actually tested positive the end of the year before he came to Neotel, but was sanctioned early in the year when after joined Neotel.
Left Neotel and coach and manager in March. Hoffman tested positive in October, 7 months later.
Was the manager at Bonitas when Seyffert tested positive. Had nothing to do with his positive test..
Am sure it won't stop the theories, but just a fact recheck....

Lie detector test???? MAJOR FAIL and using it to prove something is so sad.

It's in reference to Sniper's post above which says he refused to take one.
I'm not sure but think that means that BARRY Austin passed a lie detector saying he didn't inject Van Staden with EPO, which would contradict the polygraph that was being used as evidence against him by Van Staden, the team doc and the rider's father. Do i have it right?!
If so, that'd support my opinion that Lie detectors are a crock of *****

 

[BARRY]

Mine done by Polygraph Institute of South Africa. Full report to Cycling SA. I can't judge of they work or not. Know I did nothing.
http://152.111.1.88/argief/berigte/beeld/2005/02/07/B1/28/02.html

 

[sniper]

Re:

They say it is always a losing battle when one gets involved here, but just to recheck facts:
Lie detector test done. Published in Beeld Newspaper on 7 Feb 2005. Searches don't find it as in Afrikaans. Hard copy of report handed to Mr Willemse at the Managers Meeting of the then Giro del Capo.
Fouche actually tested positive the end of the year before he came to Neotel, but was sanctioned early in the year when after joined Neotel.
Left Neotel and coach and manager in March. Hoffman tested positive in October, 7 months later.
Was the manager at Bonitas when Seyffert tested positive. Had nothing to do with his positive test..
Am sure it won't stop the theories, but just a fact recheck....

Cheers Barry, much appreciate the input.

To be sure, I have as little a priori reason to trust the doc and the Van Stadens as I have to trust you. I think that's fair, considering the history of cycling. So it would be great to hear your side of things.

The thing is, this publication I linked to suggests you were the only one refusing to do the polygraph test.
Could you explain where this news agency got that information from?

Thanks for the link to the Beeld article! I love Afrikaans
I noticed it's from 7 Feb, meaning it predates the article that suggested you didn't take the test. Could you shed more light on this? If you did do the test, how come that news agency later reported you didn't? Were they ill informed? You have reason to suspect a smearing campaign?

---
on a side:
I reckon that most contributors will definitely welcome you to tell your side of the story. I know I do.
And I think you agree, Van Staden is a story that deserves to be discussed. So why not stick around? It could be a win-win.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

They say it is always a losing battle when one gets involved here, but just to recheck facts:
Lie detector test done. Published in Beeld Newspaper on 7 Feb 2005. Searches don't find it as in Afrikaans. Hard copy of report handed to Mr Willemse at the Managers Meeting of the then Giro del Capo.
Fouche actually tested positive the end of the year before he came to Neotel, but was sanctioned early in the year when after joined Neotel.
Left Neotel and coach and manager in March. Hoffman tested positive in October, 7 months later.
Was the manager at Bonitas when Seyffert tested positive. Had nothing to do with his positive test..
Am sure it won't stop the theories, but just a fact recheck....

Cheers Barry, much appreciate the input.

To be sure, I have as little a priori reason to trust the doc and the Van Stadens as I have to trust you. I think that's fair, considering the history of cycling. So it would be great to hear your side of things.

The thing is, this publication I linked to suggests you were the only one refusing to do the polygraph test.
Could you explain where this news agency got that information from?

Thanks for the link to the Beeld article! I love Afrikaans
I noticed it's from 7 Feb, meaning it predates the article that suggested you didn't take the test. Could you shed more light on this? If you did do the test, how come that news agency later reported you didn't? Were they ill informed? You have reason to suspect a smearing campaign?

---
on a side:
"they say". Who would that be? I reckon 'they' see and treat this subforum as a threat, am I right? Which I personally would, too, if I had stuff to hide.
I think the worst one could say about this subforum is that some contributors are allergic to BS, a term encompassing stuff like 'calibration error', 'new clean generation', 'doped once', 'stopped doping in 2006', 'bilharzia', 'just lost the fat', etc. As long as you keep that to a minimum, my experience is that most will definitely welcome you to stay and tell your side of the story.
And I think you agree, Van Staden is a story that deserves to be clarified. So why not stick around? It could be a win-win.

The worst one can say about this forum is that it abides by free speech meaning people are allowed to agree or disagree with am opinion so you get all sides giving their view.

Meaning everyone will always ultimately come across a view they dont like and some will find it distressing. Especially those used to other cycling forums were it's common to just ban anyone who disagrees with a popular mob often nation based opinion.

Some of those other forums then have users who spend all their time reading this forum and crying about it amongst themselves.

 

[Irondan]

I think it's fair to say that the moderation of this forum allows people to voice opinions that are contrary to each other without the conversation degrading to a trollfest.

Feel free to post comments that explain your side BARRY.

You may not like the reaction you get but at least you get to tell your story.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

yeah, well said thehitch, irondan.
tbs, I didn't mean to sound like I was voicing the opinion of other contributors, let alone of the clinic as a whole. Should have spoken for myself there. I edited that bottom part of my post to take that out.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

Mine done by Polygraph Institute of South Africa. Full report to Cycling SA. I can't judge of they work or not. Know I did nothing.
http://152.111.1.88/argief/berigte/beeld/2005/02/07/B1/28/02.html

Is that even a real link to something?
Is there a home page that that's attached to?

It looks like the work of Jukt Micronics.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Mine done by Polygraph Institute of South Africa. Full report to Cycling SA. I can't judge of they work or not. Know I did nothing.
http://152.111.1.88/argief/berigte/beeld/2005/02/07/B1/28/02.html

Is that even a real link to something?
Is there a home page that that's attached to?

It looks like the work of Jukt Micronics.

was wondering the same.
I couldn't find a website pertaining to that newspaper, if that's what it is.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re:

Mine done by Polygraph Institute of South Africa. Full report to Cycling SA. I can't judge of they work or not. Know I did nothing.
http://152.111.1.88/argief/berigte/beeld/2005/02/07/B1/28/02.html

Hi Barry, many thanks for popping in to join us. So, in your opinion, how did the EPO get into this youth ? The kid, the doc the dad, another coach or somebody else who is not identified, somebody had to inject it and the lad would have been conscious whilst it was being done. You are ruling yourself out.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Mine done by Polygraph Institute of South Africa. Full report to Cycling SA. I can't judge of they work or not. Know I did nothing.
http://152.111.1.88/argief/berigte/beeld/2005/02/07/B1/28/02.html

Hi Barry, many thanks for popping in to join us. So, in your opinion, how did the EPO get into this youth ? The kid, the doc the dad, another coach or somebody else who is not identified, somebody had to inject it and the lad would have been conscious whilst it was being done. You are ruling yourself out.

this youth, he married André Aubut, Geneviève Jeanson's former coach and husband, bad choice. The Saffas were opening up a minefield when they legalised gay marriage.

 

[sniper]

In 2012 the amateur SA mountain biker Wayne Collin tests positive.
Here's Swart's reaction on twitter (December 2012, https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/281073713972125697):

Jeroen Swart@JeroenSwart
"Wayne Collin is the only person I've ever blocked on twitter. That was 18 months ago. Prescience?"

Baker ‏@The_Baker_Boy 18. Dez. 2012
@JeroenSwart if its not to personal to ask, why did you block him?

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart 18. Dez. 2012
@The_Baker_Boy not one specific point. Series of events.

So apparently he had some sort of spat with Collin, and...couple of months later Collin tests positive.

Of course the two events need not be related, but it goes to show how Swart's multiple COIs within the SA cycling scene can raise questions.

(btw, wasn't Florecita the only person he ever blocked on twitter? )

 

[GW15something]

Re:

In 2012 the amateur SA mountain biker Wayne Collin tests positive.
Here's Swart's reaction on twitter (December 2012, https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/281073713972125697):

Jeroen Swart@JeroenSwart
"Wayne Collin is the only person I've ever blocked on twitter. That was 18 months ago. Prescience?"

Baker ‏@The_Baker_Boy 18. Dez. 2012
@JeroenSwart if its not to personal to ask, why did you block him?

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart 18. Dez. 2012
@The_Baker_Boy not one specific point. Series of events.

So apparently he had some sort of spat with Collin, and...couple of months later Collin tests positive.

Of course the two events need not be related, but it goes to show how Swart's multiple COIs within the SA cycling scene can raise questions.

(btw, wasn't Florecita the only person he ever blocked on twitter? )

Come on, you really saying Jeroen popped him cause of a spat?

Lets once again educate you: Wayne Collin had this whole "tv type series" leading up to epic and created media hype about how he was going to do and then doped to try get a result. He was positive for Boldenone and a diuretic, Hydrochlorothiazide if memory serves. Results wise I think he was mid 100's overall and got popped. Same as another rider 2yrs ago who was way back in high 100's or 200's. cant remember the exact position.

He - Wayne - also coaches some athletes in SA under his company Endurance Training Systems and has a pretty *** attitude, basically that everyone else knows nothing and he is god of coaching. Many coaches have had issues with him in the past and have blocked him from twitter.