SA racing scene / anti-doping (SAIDS) / Minolta / Barloworld

[sniper]

gw15something: Come on, you really saying Jeroen popped him cause of a spat?

no. not at all
Merely saying Swart's COI raises/warrants the question if Swart was perhaps involved e.g. in getting him target tested.
No COI, no such ridiculous questions.

compare it to Coe, IAAF and Nike. Nobody knows if (and if so, how) he misused his double influence. But the COI raised and legitimized the question.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

In 2012 the amateur SA mountain biker Wayne Collin tests positive.
Here's Swart's reaction on twitter (December 2012, https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/281073713972125697):

Jeroen Swart@JeroenSwart
"Wayne Collin is the only person I've ever blocked on twitter. That was 18 months ago. Prescience?"

Baker ‏@The_Baker_Boy 18. Dez. 2012
@JeroenSwart if its not to personal to ask, why did you block him?

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart 18. Dez. 2012
@The_Baker_Boy not one specific point. Series of events.

So apparently he had some sort of spat with Collin, and...couple of months later Collin tests positive.

Of course the two events need not be related, but it goes to show how Swart's multiple COIs within the SA cycling scene can raise questions.

(btw, wasn't Florecita the only person he ever blocked on twitter? )

Come on, you really saying Jeroen popped him cause of a spat?

Lets once again educate you: Wayne Collin had this whole "tv type series" leading up to epic and created media hype about how he was going to do and then doped to try get a result. He was positive for Boldenone and a diuretic, Hydrochlorothiazide if memory serves. Results wise I think he was mid 100's overall and got popped. Same as another rider 2yrs ago who was way back in high 100's or 200's. cant remember the exact position.

He - Wayne - also coaches some athletes in SA under his company Endurance Training Systems and has a pretty **** attitude, basically that everyone else knows nothing and he is god of coaching. Many coaches have had issues with him in the past and have blocked him from twitter.

interesting background, thanks for detailing.

Sniper, again, you have no idea..........

well yeah, that's one of the reasons i'm posting here. And one of the reasons why contributions such as yours are most welcome.

except your creative (yet very evil/narcissistic like) fantasy is something beyond world class.

let's play ball not man. I mean no harm. If you think i'm out of line, you can always warn the mods.

 

[sniper]

Kevin Evans in 2012 on David George's positive:
http://www.iol.co.za/the-star/evans-i-did-not-know-1419424

Kevin Evans a couple of hours ago:
http://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_/news/mtb/sa-mtb/kevin-evans-admits-to-doping-charge-r3991

Fool me once - shame on you.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Yikes.
That piece about Evans and George from 2012, combined with Evans' positive just yesterday, is instructive on so many levels. A must-read for anyone who still gives any sort of credibility to similar denials, say, from Froome following the Duenas positive in 08. Compare:

Evans on teammate George in '12:

He struggled to make sense of the trust that had been broken by someone who had cheated his teammates, his sponsors, his family and his sport.
“No. I didn’t know. Not at all,” said Evans yesterday when asked if he had had any idea that George was taking banned substances.

Froome on team- and roommate Duenas in '08:

"To have something like that so close to home was unbelievable - I never saw it coming. You just feel that you've been cheated by one of your team-mates."http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/jul/28/cycling.tourdefrance

Then there's the fact that Evans and other George teammates "have had an enormous amount of support from the rest of the cycling community " including Impey. It doesn't bode well for the SA cycling community tbh. From a clean-rider perspective, you'd expect a bit more caution, surely.

In that same context, there's also this from Swart on George:

Jeroen Swart, a cycling coach, sports scientist and a member of the Doping Control Review Commission, said that George’s positive was proof that the system was working. When Nedbank tweeted a question asking if they should “pull the sponsorship of the whole team”, Swart replied: “Absolutely not. Punish the athlete, not the team.”

Is he speaking as a coach there? As an independent scientist? Or as a SAIDS employer? Or maybe in his capacity as an employer of CSA? Not even the author of the article seems to know.
Considering Swarts multiple conflicting roles within SA cycling, you gotta wonder about him making such statements.

Would be good to hear from George if he ever felt scapegoated in 2012.

And how is this for laugh:

It was a simple answer to a simple question. He has been asked the same question by his sponsors several times in the last few days. And the answer has been the same. One of his sponsors told me they had also asked Evans straight up if he had ever doped himself. “He said no, absolutely not. Never,” the sponsor said and asked not to be named. “I believed him. I don’t think Kevin could be a good liar. He couldn’t look his family and friends in the eye if he was cheating.”

Bradley "I would never dope cuz it would cost me everything" Wiggins says hi. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/jul/13/bradley-wiggins-dope-drugs

 

[GW15something]

Re: Re:

Considering Swarts multiple conflicting roles within SA cycling, you gotta wonder about him making such statements.


Swart has no role at all in SA Cycling other than a coach to a handful of athletes. SAIDS work / role has nothing to do with CSA and has not been in any managerial or similar role since 2012 when he removed himself totally due to the possibility of conflicting roles or outcomes. He also has no say on how SAIDS do their business he analysis samples and passports once they handed to him.

You have just said to me in another post "dont play the man" WTFlip are you doing in every single post and chance you get to smear Swart as a cheat, fraud, corrupt, dishonest lier??

If you knew David Georges history of doping you would be suprised it took any drugfree institute this long to catch him and put a nail in his coffin.

I dont know what your agenda is I have to be honest, I am also not here to stick up for the man in anyway and I know it seems that way but you cannot go around smearing and making this up about someone.

Its like me going on a psychiatric forum and reverting to your personality in my posts saying you mentally unstable with a serious touch of delusional Narcissistic personality disorder cause of what I read here.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

You have just said to me in another post "dont play the man" WTFlip are you doing in every single post and chance you get to smear Swart as a cheat, fraud, corrupt, dishonest lier??

where? I feel you're twisting my words or not reading my posts correctly.

Also, we seem to agree more than you think.
In the last couple of pages I've pointed out some of Swart's COIs, and you seem to agree he was suffering from potential conflicts of interest:

gw15something: "when he removed himself totally due to the possibility of conflicting roles or outcomes."

so we actually agree there. I didn't know he had stopped managing athletes, so thanks for that info.

Its like me going on a psychiatric forum and reverting to your personality in my posts saying you mentally unstable with a serious touch of delusional Narcissistic personality disorder cause of what I read here.

calm down.

Having said that, your contributions here have been few but very valuable and full of insights. I can only say I look forward to more contributions (though preferably without the adhoms).
Also, with that post in the Froome thread (I think it was one of your first posts) you put me on the track of Barry Austin. Thanks for that. Most illuminating.

 

[sniper]

btw, gw15something, if you're still there, could you tell me what roles exactly Swart has given up?
And how does Sciencetosport fit in?
That company does consult/test/coach SA athletes, doesn't it?
And Swart is on the payroll there. (or even owns it, iinm?)

 

[GW15something]

Re:

btw, gw15something, if you're still there, could you tell me what roles exactly Swart has given up?
And how does Sciencetosport fit in?
That company does consult/test/coach SA athletes, doesn't it?
And Swart is on the payroll there. (or even owns it, iinm?)

Incredible company
Leaders in SA at what they do
Would also say World wide to a extent
Not just coaching
Couple of other umbrella's
Multiple SA Champions in their folder
Olympians etc
Great bunch of Directors / coaches / staff
All 4 Directors are well respected in the Country among the public, many athletes and other coaches and facilities

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

btw, gw15something, if you're still there, could you tell me what roles exactly Swart has given up?
And how does Sciencetosport fit in?
That company does consult/test/coach SA athletes, doesn't it?
And Swart is on the payroll there. (or even owns it, iinm?)

Incredible company
Leaders in SA at what they do
Would also say World wide to a extent
Not just coaching
Couple of other umbrella's
Multiple SA Champions in their folder
Olympians etc
Great bunch of Directors / coaches / staff
All 4 Directors are well respected in the Country among the public, many athletes and other coaches and facilities

thanks!
And that goes a long way in proving my point.
Swart rightly noted on twitter that working for UCI + testing Froome would have been a Conflict of Interest.

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart 4. Jan.
@EwonSprokler @IMLahart I'm not policing Chris. If I worked for the UCI then it would be a COI and I would have declined.

If that's the case (and I think everyone agrees it is), it's kind of a stretch to claim that the scope of tasks/duties described above does not conflict with working for SAIDS.

 

[GW15something]

Re: Re:

[quote="
If that's the case (and I think everyone agrees it is), it's kind of a stretch to claim that the scope of tasks/duties described above does not conflict with working for SAIDS.

There is no conflict other than your attempt to smear the man in anyway you can.

Anyway, There is a saying that goes "Those who know the truth - matter. Those who dont know the truth dont matter" You seem to be latter unfortunately.

Smear away and fabricate the thread is yours.

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

[quote="
If that's the case (and I think everyone agrees it is), it's kind of a stretch to claim that the scope of tasks/duties described above does not conflict with working for SAIDS.

There is no conflict other than your attempt to smear the man in anyway you can.

Anyway, There is a saying that goes "Those who know the truth - matter. Those who dont know the truth dont matter" You seem to be latter unfortunately.

Smear away and fabricate the thread is yours.

Cheers

classical post going for the man not the issue.

"there is no conflict of interest because I say so". Great, good to have that out of the way then.
Seriously though, unless you are Swart, why would you vouch for him so vociferously?
Didn't Kevin Evans get popped only a few days ago? I posted a link some pages back showing some people vouched for Evans in 2012 when his teammate David George got popped. Wow they must have been shocked learning that Evans was a doper after all.
There was also a whole legion of people - including some renowned scientists - who said they could vouch for Lance Armstrong when he was still riding.
What I'm getting at is there is a saying "Fool me once - shame on you"
Sure, Froome isn't Armstrong, and Swart isn't Vrijman. But those prior cases show why it is fully warranted to ask certain questions and look beyond what the subjects of inquiry tell us.

And so I'm not sure if you're doing Swart a favor here by evading and dismissing the issue without any kind of foundation other than "because I say so". You make the whole COI issue seem like a major issue, which it isn't.
Why the defensiveness to a rather harmless line of inquiry?
It reminds me a lot of some of Swart's own responses in here and on twitter to similarly legitimate yet rather harmless questions. It also reminds me of Seb Coe's "declaration of war" comments and Lance's "done too much good for too many people" comments. In the latter two cases, we know perfectly well what the real reason for the evasiveness was.
Just saying, in this day and age, such responses just don't cut it, sorry.

To be sure, my initial beef was with the label "independent" as used in regards to Froome's 2015 testing. The COI discussion merely emanated from that, and it's a comparatively harmless line of inquiry.
In the bigger picture of procycling and prosport in general, however, i do think COIs are one of the key issues that need to be addressed, since most of the larger cases of (pseudo)scientific fraud that we've seen in the past few decades seem to have emanated from some form of COI.
That is not to say that all COI's lead to scientific fraud, mind.
But yes, they seem to positively correlate with each other, and so the less COIs the better.

 

[grumpycoach]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately you are quite right to question COI tendencies as well as the general "health" of the racing scene here in SA. Drug Free SA are short of funds and simply cannot police the riders with any degree approaching proper. So abuse abounds. Remember also our shores have long been favoured as training ground for pre- and out-of- season pro riders and teams going back to Cipo and Jan U. It's out of the way and the strong sun makes vampires easy to spot.

Evans and the predecessors are exceptions in that they got bust. And I know only too well that the Omerta is strong down here and what gets done in the privacy of one's halls tends to stay there.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately you are quite right to question COI tendencies as well as the general "health" of the racing scene here in SA. Drug Free SA are short of funds and simply cannot police the riders with any degree approaching proper. So abuse abounds. Remember also our shores have long been favoured as training ground for pre- and out-of- season pro riders and teams going back to Cipo and Jan U. It's out of the way and the strong sun makes vampires easy to spot.

southern hemisphere seasons and similar timezone

Evans and the predecessors are exceptions in that they got bust. And I know only too well that the Omerta is strong down here and what gets done in the privacy of one's halls tends to stay there.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately you are quite right to question COI tendencies as well as the general "health" of the racing scene here in SA. Drug Free SA are short of funds and simply cannot police the riders with any degree approaching proper. So abuse abounds. Remember also our shores have long been favoured as training ground for pre- and out-of- season pro riders and teams going back to Cipo and Jan U. It's out of the way and the strong sun makes vampires easy to spot.

Evans and the predecessors are exceptions in that they got bust. And I know only too well that the Omerta is strong down here and what gets done in the privacy of one's halls tends to stay there.

cheers, good input, appreciate it.

Yeah, someone like Marianne Vos would also do long training periods in SA.
Certainly question worthy, although as blackcat also suggests it'll be difficult to argue that doping is the only benefit of going there. It would probably be a repeat of the Tenerife/Girona discussion.

To your knowledge, is there any frustration among members of the SA scene seeing how Froome suddenly got the better of all those SA riders some of whom were in fact considered (much) better talents than him prior to the Vuelta 2011?
E.g. a rider like Augustyn, when he and Froome were at Barloworld he was able to drop Froome uphill and considered the better talent.
Of course Augustyn got injured, but still, I can imagine some frustration in him, seeing Froome transform like that and thinking "jeez, i used to drop that guy uphill like a bag of sand".
And if I'm not mistaken there were plenty of others who finished ahead of Froome in local SA races but never really made any significant breakthrough.
So is it fair to assume that Froome's transformation doesn't sit well with everybody in the SA scene?

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

And if I'm not mistaken there were plenty of others who finished ahead of Froome in local SA races but never really made any significant breakthrough.

They should have join team Sky, simple as that

 

[grumpycoach]

Re: Re:

Unfortunately you are quite right to question COI tendencies as well as the general "health" of the racing scene here in SA. Drug Free SA are short of funds and simply cannot police the riders with any degree approaching proper. So abuse abounds. Remember also our shores have long been favoured as training ground for pre- and out-of- season pro riders and teams going back to Cipo and Jan U. It's out of the way and the strong sun makes vampires easy to spot.

Evans and the predecessors are exceptions in that they got bust. And I know only too well that the Omerta is strong down here and what gets done in the privacy of one's halls tends to stay there.

cheers, good input, appreciate it.

Yeah, someone like Marianne Vos would also do long training periods in SA.
Certainly question worthy, although as blackcat also suggests it'll be difficult to argue that doping is the only benefit of going there. It would probably be a repeat of the Tenerife/Girona discussion.

To your knowledge, is there any frustration among members of the SA scene seeing how Froome suddenly got the better of all those SA riders some of whom were in fact considered (much) better talents than him prior to the Vuelta 2011?
E.g. a rider like Augustyn, when he and Froome were at Barloworld he was able to drop Froome uphill and considered the better talent.
Of course Augustyn got injured, but still, I can imagine some frustration in him, seeing Froome transform like that and thinking "jeez, i used to drop that guy uphill like a bag of sand".
And if I'm not mistaken there were plenty of others who finished ahead of Froome in local SA races but never really made any significant breakthrough.
So is it fair to assume that Froome's transformation doesn't sit well with everybody in the SA scene?

Sorry for the delay in reply.
To fill you in - I'm close friends with the person who "discovered" Froome. He was always considered an "average" talent and certainly, compared to many of his contemporaries (Augustyn an example) and the other riders he raced at Minolta and later Barloworld, certainly no "phenom".
I'm a particularly jaundiced sceptic as I was old enough and experienced enough to do the math when the Vuelta show happened and he pulled Wiggo all over Spain. This after a stint back here "curing his bilharzia.........." Sure. This at a time when my close friend returned from a stint working at the TdF and told us about these new peptides doing the rounds that cost 60 000 euro per course. A small fortune and out of the reach of all but the richest riders around. Or those able to raise the sponsorship for the course.

We have a strong amateur race culture here. I'd hate to go into the depth of that dirt. But this is no more than typical of competitive sport irrespective of discipline or type anywhere.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Sorry for the delay in reply.
To fill you in - I'm close friends with the person who "discovered" Froome. He was always considered an "average" talent and certainly, compared to many of his contemporaries (Augustyn an example) and the other riders he raced at Minolta and later Barloworld, certainly no "phenom".
I'm a particularly jaundiced sceptic as I was old enough and experienced enough to do the math when the Vuelta show happened and he pulled Wiggo all over Spain. This after a stint back here "curing his bilharzia.........." Sure. This at a time when my close friend returned from a stint working at the TdF and told us about these new peptides doing the rounds that cost 60 000 euro per course. A small fortune and out of the reach of all but the richest riders around. Or those able to raise the sponsorship for the course.

We have a strong amateur race culture here. I'd hate to go into the depth of that dirt. But this is no more than typical of competitive sport irrespective of discipline or type anywhere.

I know which "friend" this is. The Corti putsch friend.

did JR really say 5 years back it was 50k euro, no, 60 k euro to get a dose of the AICAR? well well well. Unlike Sniper, I would not think the amateur race doping would be different. Tho I do reckon, much like NFL informed a doping in all other sports, prolly arm to arm with Olympic sport, I reckon in SA and Australia, rugby was the antecedent (with the Olympic sport).

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

Sorry for the delay in reply.
To fill you in - I'm close friends with the person who "discovered" Froome. He was always considered an "average" talent and certainly, compared to many of his contemporaries (Augustyn an example) and the other riders he raced at Minolta and later Barloworld, certainly no "phenom".
I'm a particularly jaundiced sceptic as I was old enough and experienced enough to do the math when the Vuelta show happened and he pulled Wiggo all over Spain. This after a stint back here "curing his bilharzia.........." Sure. This at a time when my close friend returned from a stint working at the TdF and told us about these new peptides doing the rounds that cost 60 000 euro per course. A small fortune and out of the reach of all but the richest riders around. Or those able to raise the sponsorship for the course.

We have a strong amateur race culture here. I'd hate to go into the depth of that dirt. But this is no more than typical of competitive sport irrespective of discipline or type anywhere.

baie dankie! appreciate it. Good info.
Is Robertson still active in the SA cycling scene?
As it happens, his colleague Barry Austin was in here recently with a few posts.

If I may, what's your take on Jeroen Swart and the Froome testing?

On a side, my understanding is that Swart and Austin don't go well together ever since the Olympics 2012.
Were you surprised to see Augustyn end up working for/with Austin?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

baie dankie! appreciate it. Good info

+1

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

This at a time when my close friend returned from a stint working at the TdF and told us about these new peptides doing the rounds that cost 60 000 euro per course. A small fortune and out of the reach of all but the richest riders around. Or those able to raise the sponsorship for the course.

This is also how Wiggins lost all the weight ofcourse

use GW as a chaser for better results

the cost has come down considerably since then, miniscule compared to 60k euros in '11.

 

[blackcat]

I was a fan of tiaan kannemeyer, always reckoned he never got much of a go.

like john lee augustyn, with jamie burrow, the two best climbers Sky dont have.

 

[GW15something]

Re:

I was a fan of tiaan kannemeyer, always reckoned he never got much of a go.

like john lee augustyn, with jamie burrow, the two best climbers Sky dont have.

Tiaan was a good rider, took a huge step up with the late Ryan Cox. Unfortunately Tiaan's rep was never the best with regards to people he associated within cycling and so on.

 

[grumpycoach]

Re: Re:

baie dankie! appreciate it. Good info.
Is Robertson still active in the SA cycling scene?
As it happens, his colleague Barry Austin was in here recently with a few posts.

If I may, what's your take on Jeroen Swart and the Froome testing?

On a side, my understanding is that Swart and Austin don't go well together ever since the Olympics 2012.
Were you surprised to see Augustyn end up working for/with Austin?[/quote]

JR isn't active at all on the team side any more. And he and BA didn't really see eye-to-eye much.

I'd rather not comment on the Froome testing. But as a colleague (a medical specialist) asked - how do you drop 12 or 15% total body mass off an elite grade athlete and not impact power output? This is muscle mass being impacted. And really? Do we think modern athletes train harder than old timers? Ross Tucker is unequivocal - in the last however many decades of competitive sport, the only really significant improvements have come about through chemical augmentation and not equipment or training techniques.

This is all speculation of course. As noted, in moneyed sport the Omerta tends to be strong. There is typically no remarks column on a results sheet. Just look at the typical paid rugby player these days and then factor this against local newspaper headlines noting growing concerns of rampant drug abuse among schoolboy rugby players.

I mean, how else do you make a decent living as a pro sportsperson?

 

[GW15something]

Re: Re:

I know which "friend" this is. The Corti putsch friend.

did JR really say 5 years back it was 50k euro, no, 60 k euro to get a dose of the AICAR? well well well. Unlike Sniper, I would not think the amateur race doping would be different. Tho I do reckon, much like NFL informed a doping in all other sports, prolly arm to arm with Olympic sport, I reckon in SA and Australia, rugby was the antecedent (with the Olympic sport).[/quote]

JR was probably making a good 30k off of that deal knowing him.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

baie dankie! appreciate it. Good info.
Is Robertson still active in the SA cycling scene?
As it happens, his colleague Barry Austin was in here recently with a few posts.

If I may, what's your take on Jeroen Swart and the Froome testing?

On a side, my understanding is that Swart and Austin don't go well together ever since the Olympics 2012.
Were you surprised to see Augustyn end up working for/with Austin?

JR isn't active at all on the team side any more. And he and BA didn't really see eye-to-eye much.

I'd rather not comment on the Froome testing. But as a colleague (a medical specialist) asked - how do you drop 12 or 15% total body mass off an elite grade athlete and not impact power output? This is muscle mass being impacted. And really? Do we think modern athletes train harder than old timers? Ross Tucker is unequivocal - in the last however many decades of competitive sport, the only really significant improvements have come about through chemical augmentation and not equipment or training techniques.

This is all speculation of course. As noted, in moneyed sport the Omerta tends to be strong. There is typically no remarks column on a results sheet. Just look at the typical paid rugby player these days and then factor this against local newspaper headlines noting growing concerns of rampant drug abuse among schoolboy rugby players.

I mean, how else do you make a decent living as a pro sportsperson?[/quote]

I'll think you'll find Froome was 'fat inside'...

Surely the cue for a song................