Sagan Clean?

[rick james]

Re: Re:

He's just notched up his third win of the season. Three wins in 2019. In this era of cycling, that's ... ridiculous. So, I have to ask - is he not doping?

He's taking a break from the dope this year to prove he's not dependent on it.

is he? how do you know that?

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

He's just notched up his third win of the season. Three wins in 2019. In this era of cycling, that's ... ridiculous. So, I have to ask - is he not doping?

While his team are doing great all season. I just don't think he has been in the right frame of mind so far. Personal life problems.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

He certainly looks cleaner than Lemond ever did..

Really? Do you have anything that 100% cofirms LeMond wasn't clean at all at ANY point of his career? What time period are we talking?

1 questionable TUE, ANY positive from any doping test, any questionable Dr prescriptions? Any dosages? Dates, times, when, where, who ad.ministered said drugs? Any teammates/domestiques see it? Verifiable info?

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

He's just notched up his third win of the season. Three wins in 2019. In this era of cycling, that's ... ridiculous. So, I have to ask - is he not doping?

He's taking a break from the dope this year to prove he's not dependent on it.

I took this to be a humorous post, which it kind of is.

I've kind of revised my view of Sagan -- I actually think he's "clean-ish." No evidence, of course. But his career seems to be following a relatively typical arc -- huge promise, big successes largely won on his own, now we see that he's struggling a bit as he ages.

 

[samhocking]

Depends how you view the people around him. Bora's performance director and Sagan's coach were both busted for doping and of course one of his team mates. In itself that doesn't carry much weight that Sagan is doping too, although it seems to carry weight here when discussing other teams so who knows? I would expect him to be pushing every single rule to the edge in terms of medicalisation. I've never understood why Bora don't publish who their doctors are though. They seem to be contracted via German Health clinics rather than staff on payroll perhaps, but hard to tell. They don't list any medical staff on their site.

 

[Martin]

Re: Re:

He's just notched up his third win of the season. Three wins in 2019. In this era of cycling, that's ... ridiculous. So, I have to ask - is he not doping?

He's taking a break from the dope this year to prove he's not dependent on it.

Oh, an expert.

 

[Beobachter]

Depends how you view the people around him. Bora's performance director and Sagan's coach were both busted for doping and of course one of his team mates. In itself that doesn't carry much weight that Sagan is doping too, although it seems to carry weight here when discussing other teams so who knows? I would expect him to be pushing every single rule to the edge in terms of medicalisation. I've never understood why Bora don't publish who their doctors are though. They seem to be contracted via German Health clinics rather than staff on payroll perhaps, but hard to tell. They don't list any medical staff on their site.

Bora's head of medical is Jan Niklas Droste. It's absolutely no secret...1

And may I ask who is his teammate you're referring to?

 

[samhocking]

I know who he is, but was talking about Bora don't publish any of their doctors or medical staff names on their website.

As for his team mate, Matzka sanctioned for Tamoxifen within the team, Poitschke (Head of Sports Directors) for Betamethasone and Vila (Head of Technical Performance and claims to be Sagan's Coach) positive for Testosterone.

I'm not claiming Sagan is doping, simply saying that list of doping above in itself is more than enough to condemn other riders in other teams in the clinic.

 

[Beobachter]

I know who he is, but was talking about Bora don't publish any of their doctors or medical staff names on their website.

As for his team mate, Matzka sanctioned for Tamoxifen within the team, Poitschke (Head of Sports Directors) for Betamethasone and Vila (Head of Technical Performance and claims to be Sagan's Coach) positive for Testosterone.

I'm not claiming Sagan is doping, simply saying that list of doping above in itself is more than enough to condemn other riders in other teams in the clinic.

Matzka has never been Sagan's teammate (since the Slovak arrived in 2017 and Matzka's contract was ended the year before).
(Btw, Matzka is an interesting case. While I'm not really a fan of the way Bora handled the case (I would have prefered earlier transparency), fact is they didn't let him race after his positive test (not like some teams), and that's to their credit.
And moreover, it is noticeable that while Matzka was indeed acknowledged guilty of an anti-doping rule violation (as it should be, since a forbidden substance was found in his body), there was no intention of cheating according to both the UCI and the German justice.
Imo, it's a good example of how things should be: in case of a positive test, the rider should not take part of a competition by decision of the team until a decision of the antidoping authorities/the UCI/the national justices. And even though the infraction of an antidoping rule results from an accident , the rule must still be respected. Hence, the suspension of the rider.)

You're right about Vila and Poitschke though and you could add to your list of sentenced people one Austrian guy who works as mechanic too. (even though like Matzka, his case is quite interesting ).

Re Droste, I don't get your point. Droste's name appears many times on their website. He's quoted in many press releases of the team. So, it's just wrong to say his name is not published or whatever

Now, regarding your conclusion (since it's the core of where you want to go), sorry but it's atrociously fallacious.
Is Bora perfect? No since they are some employees with a past. (and I would also not really bet that some riders have been riding clean their entire career)
But to make it like they are eventually just as suspicious as other teams is just ludicrous.
Droste is not a dodgy doctor (on the contrary of some teams), they don't sign riders with a doping past (not like a lot of teams), they don't act shamefully like Sky did with Froome in case of a violation of the antidoping rules, they don't have an history of doping (in 10 years, Matzka was the only problem ever - and as briefly explained, it can hardly be considered as a cheating case).
Now, compare on these 4 dimensions Bora with any other World Tour team and tell me if it seriously makes sense to say that all teams are eventually the same regarding suspicions?

Maybe Bora is not clean, it's a possibility (everything is possible anyway). But as of today, we have way less elements of suspicions about them than we have about other teams (not to say all other teams).

 

[samhocking]

Tamoxifen is classed S4.4 so it isn't a specified substance Bora could carry on racing the rider with an AAF for anyway. It has nothing to do with Bora's decision, the rules require withdrawal from competition for S4.4.

As for the rest, I'm simply saying Bora don't list any of their doctors as staff and I find it a little odd when they're central to any team regardless of doping. As I said, is it because they are not staff and contract Doctors? IDK?

 

[ppanther92]

I know who he is, but was talking about Bora don't publish any of their doctors or medical staff names on their website.

As for his team mate, Matzka sanctioned for Tamoxifen within the team, Poitschke (Head of Sports Directors) for Betamethasone and Vila (Head of Technical Performance and claims to be Sagan's Coach) positive for Testosterone.

I'm not claiming Sagan is doping, simply saying that list of doping above in itself is more than enough to condemn other riders in other teams in the clinic.

Matzka has never been Sagan's teammate (since the Slovak arrived in 2017 and Matzka's contract was ended the year before).
(Btw, Matzka is an interesting case. While I'm not really a fan of the way Bora handled the case (I would have prefered earlier transparency), fact is they didn't let him race after his positive test (not like some teams), and that's to their credit.
And moreover, it is noticeable that while Matzka was indeed acknowledged guilty of an anti-doping rule violation (as it should be, since a forbidden substance was found in his body), there was no intention of cheating according to both the UCI and the German justice.
Imo, it's a good example of how things should be: in case of a positive test, the rider should not take part of a competition by decision of the team until a decision of the antidoping authorities/the UCI/the national justices. And even though the infraction of an antidoping rule results from an accident , the rule must still be respected. Hence, the suspension of the rider.)

You're right about Vila and Poitschke though and you could add to your list of sentenced people one Austrian guy who works as mechanic too. (even though like Matzka, his case is quite interesting ).

Re Droste, I don't get your point. Droste's name appears many times on their website. He's quoted in many press releases of the team. So, it's just wrong to say his name is not published or whatever

Now, regarding your conclusion (since it's the core of where you want to go), sorry but it's atrociously fallacious.
Is Bora perfect? No since they are some employees with a past. (and I would also not really bet that some riders have been riding clean their entire career)
But to make it like they are eventually just as suspicious as other teams is just ludicrous.
Droste is not a dodgy doctor (on the contrary of some teams), they don't sign riders with a doping past (not like a lot of teams), they don't act shamefully like Sky did with Froome in case of a violation of the antidoping rules, they don't have an history of doping (in 10 years, Matzka was the only problem ever - and as briefly explained, it can hardly be considered as a cheating case).
Now, compare on these 4 dimensions Bora with any other World Tour team and tell me if it seriously makes sense to say that all teams are eventually the same regarding suspicions?

Maybe Bora is not clean, it's a possibility (everything is possible anyway). But as of today, we have way less elements of suspicions about them than we have about other teams (not to say all other teams).

Regarding Matzka - why would you want to take Tamoxifen if not for performance enhancement?