How To Say my name! Pronunciation thread

[RedheadDane]

Obviously, accents will tend to butcher names, witness the names that touched off this particular controversy. It's probably enough to just try, within the limits of your own native tongue.

That wasn't really my point, though...
Matteo Jorgenson was being accused of butchering his own name because he doesn't pronounce it in Danish.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

How about when someone purposely anglicanizes the way they pronounce their own name? That just reinforces an incorrect pronunciation compared to how they would say it in their own language.

If it a case of "My name is [original pronunciation], but I don't mind if you say it as [adapted pronunciation to accommodate for the other party]", then that is a kindness that the speaker is offering: if I thought I could get close enough to the original without it being tantamount to an insult to his family and language I would try the original, but I would appreciate the offer.

If it is the situation that "The name was originally [Fooian pronunciation], but that contains sounds absent from the language of the place where we now live, so we now pronounce it [adapted version]", then that version is their name, and it would be extraordinarily arrogant to deny people the right to determine what their own name is.

If I see a name like Jorgenson, my default would be to pronounce the J as a Y (but not to try to imitate Danish/Norwegian vowel sounds, because I wouldn't know what I am aiming for, yet alone be confident of emitting them), but once I am told that the carrier of the name prefers to use a J sound, that's the end of the subject.

I think it's a shame that people find it necessary, on migration, to change their name, but I understand it. Maybe it is a kindness to the majority population, maybe it is a path of least resistance, a choice to remove a an obstacle to commerce or opportunity, or simply an admission of defeat and avoidance of embarrassment: it happens.

I wince inwardly when I hear Kinsella or Costelloe said as though they are Italian names, Mahoney as three syllables, or names of Polish origin ending "-cow sky", but that's my fault, not that of the people who use their names in that way. They have the right to choose.

tldr: Original is nice, but not necessarily correct.

 

[SafeBet]

Is this pronunciation of Anders Foldager correct?
Can any Danish poster give some explanation of that? It doesn't even sound like the same word to me.

 

[theyoungest]

If it a case of "My name is [original pronunciation], but I don't mind if you say it as [adapted pronunciation to accommodate for the other party]", then that is a kindness that the speaker is offering: if I thought I could get close enough to the original without it being tantamount to an insult to his family and language I would try the original, but I would appreciate the offer.

If it is the situation that "The name was originally [Fooian pronunciation], but that contains sounds absent from the language of the place where we now live, so we now pronounce it [adapted version]", then that version is their name, and it would be extraordinarily arrogant to deny people the right to determine what their own name is.

If I see a name like Jorgenson, my default would be to pronounce the J as a Y (but not to try to imitate Danish/Norwegian vowel sounds, because I wouldn't know what I am aiming for, yet alone be confident of emitting them), but once I am told that the carrier of the name prefers to use a J sound, that's the end of the subject.

I think it's a shame that people find it necessary, on migration, to change their name, but I understand it. Maybe it is a kindness to the majority population, maybe it is a path of least resistance, a choice to remove a an obstacle to commerce or opportunity, or simply an admission of defeat and avoidance of embarrassment: it happens.

I wince inwardly when I hear Kinsella or Costelloe said as though they are Italian names, Mahoney as three syllables, or names of Polish origin ending "-cow sky", but that's my fault, not that of the people who use their names in that way. They have the right to choose.

tldr: Original is nice, but not necessarily correct.

There's a certain intellectual laziness that comes with being a native English speaker. There's just not the need nor the will to learn any foreign languages. That's why when people actually try to pronounce words correctly they come off as pretentious snobs. Conversely when they pretend to do so but actually do a very bad job, English speakers aren't able to tell the difference either.

For reference: every Dutch accent ever done in any Hollywood movie or series. All equally terrible, all sounding nothing like a Dutchman. That's an experience you'll never get to have when you grew up speaking English: watching Oppenheimer and hearing Cillian Murphy supposedly speaking Dutch, but doing such a terrible job that not a single Dutch speaker understood a single word he said... and he won an Oscar for that role!

 

[ingsve]

Is this pronunciation of Anders Foldager correct?
Can any Danish poster give some explanation of that? It doesn't even sound like the same word to me.

Welcome to Danish. As a swede the only explanation I can give you is that danish people have a potato stuck down their throat and that is why their language sounds like that.

 

[AmRacer]

Welcome to Danish. As a swede the only explanation I can give you is that danish people have a potato stuck down their throat and that is why their language sounds like that.

I have heard that every Swede can speak Danish after a few 🍻

 

[ingsve]

For reference: every Dutch accent ever done in any Hollywood movie or series. All equally terrible, all sounding nothing like a Dutchman. That's an experience you'll never get to have when you grew up speaking English: watching Oppenheimer and hearing Cillian Murphy supposedly speaking Dutch, but doing such a terrible job that not a single Dutch speaker understood a single word he said... and he won an Oscar for that role!

Hehe, don't get me started on Hollywood and languages. I'm online friends with the guy who invented the Dothraki language and other languages for Game of Thrones and let me tell you that hardly anyone on that show pronounces the language correctly. The one that does it best is Jacob Anderson who played Grey Worm.

The most widely spread word from the Dothraki language is the title Khaleesi and let me tell you that no one pronounces it correctly. The proper Dothraki pronunciation is /ˈxa.le.e.si/ for those who can read IPA.

 

[Netserk]

Is this pronunciation of Anders Foldager correct?
Can any Danish poster give some explanation of that? It doesn't even sound like the same word to me.

Correct, but in normal conversation I'd smooth it out more. After the F, you can keep your mouth open.

 

[Red Rick]

For reference: every Dutch accent ever done in any Hollywood movie or series. All equally terrible, all sounding nothing like a Dutchman. That's an experience you'll never get to have when you grew up speaking English: watching Oppenheimer and hearing Cillian Murphy supposedly speaking Dutch, but doing such a terrible job that not a single Dutch speaker understood a single word he said... and he won an Oscar for that role!

Thanks for reminding me, my morning is ruined once again.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

There's a certain intellectual laziness that comes with being a native English speaker. There's just not the need nor the will to learn any foreign languages. That's why when people actually try to pronounce words correctly they come off as pretentious snobs. Conversely when they pretend to do so but actually do a very bad job, English speakers aren't able to tell the difference either.

For reference: every Dutch accent ever done in any Hollywood movie or series. All equally terrible, all sounding nothing like a Dutchman. That's an experience you'll never get to have when you grew up speaking English: watching Oppenheimer and hearing Cillian Murphy supposedly speaking Dutch, but doing such a terrible job that not a single Dutch speaker understood a single word he said... and he won an Oscar for that role!

That's quite a sweeping generalisation: there is certainly a privileged position in having a near-universal language as one's mother tongue, but every school pupil is taught at least one modern foreign language at school, and many pride themselves on learning beyond that.

But there is sometimes an inverted snobbery towards those that display education in any field outside an immediate professional millieu: I can't comment on whether that is unique to the English speaking world.

And yes, Polish friends tell me that the dialogue between Helen Mirren and Henry Lloyd-Hughes in Thurdsday Murder Club was incomprehensible.

 

[tobydawq]

Welcome to Danish. As a swede the only explanation I can give you is that danish people have a potato stuck down their throat and that is why their language sounds like that.

As a Dane and keen observer of my surroundings as well as of myself, I can debunk this theory.

But yeah, our pronunciation is neither logical nor pretty.

 

[tobydawq]

Is this pronunciation of Anders Foldager correct?
Can any Danish poster give some explanation of that? It doesn't even sound like the same word to me.

The first name: The d is silent and the A is pronounced like it would be in an Italian word. The ers ending is pronounced quite like the English word 'us'.

The second name: This d is also silent. Fol is not pronounced weirdly, but the 'ager' is probably not that easy. This a is flat (meaning it's pronounced like in the word flat), while the g functions like a less festive version of the Spanish y (it's not a hard g so you can barely hear it). The 'er' at the end is not emphasised and is basically like it would be at the end of an English word.

Daniel Friebe also tried to say this during the Vuelta but despite all of his linguistic prowess, he did not succeed.

 

[SafeBet]

The first name: The d is silent and the A is pronounced like it would be in an Italian word. The ers ending is pronounced quite like the English word 'us'.

The second name: This d is also silent. Fol is not pronounced weirdly, but the 'ager' is probably not that easy. This a is flat (meaning it's pronounced like in the word flat), while the g functions like a less festive version of the Spanish y (it's not a hard g so you can barely hear it). The 'er' at the end is not emphasised and is basically like it would be at the end of an English word.

Daniel Friebe also tried to say this during the Vuelta but despite all of his linguistic prowess, he did not succeed.

I listened to that episode and I genuinely had no idea of the rider he was talking about. Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I normally take pride in trying to pronounce foreign names correctly but I'll take a pass on Foldager.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The first name: The d is silent and the A is pronounced like it would be in an Italian word. The ers ending is pronounced quite like the English word 'us'.

The second name: This d is also silent. Fol is not pronounced weirdly, but the 'ager' is probably not that easy. This a is flat (meaning it's pronounced like in the word flat), while the g functions like a less festive version of the Spanish y (it's not a hard g so you can barely hear it). The 'er' at the end is not emphasised and is basically like it would be at the end of an English word.

Daniel Friebe also tried to say this during the Vuelta but despite all of his linguistic prowess, he did not succeed.

And that's where the commentators' dilemma comes in: He may know that Annus Folayuh is a better approximation than applying rules of English phonetics to the letters in Anders Foldager, but if he does so, will his audience know who he means, and if they do not, is he serving his main purpose as a commentator? Is he race describer or educator?

I appreciate efforts at the original (I probably watch enough that I will become used to it and learn to recognise it), but we know from comments in the Hatch thread and elsewhere that many don't.

 

[ingsve]

The first name: The d is silent and the A is pronounced like it would be in an Italian word. The ers ending is pronounced quite like the English word 'us'.

The second name: This d is also silent. Fol is not pronounced weirdly, but the 'ager' is probably not that easy. This a is flat (meaning it's pronounced like in the word flat), while the g functions like a less festive version of the Spanish y (it's not a hard g so you can barely hear it). The 'er' at the end is not emphasised and is basically like it would be at the end of an English word.

Daniel Friebe also tried to say this during the Vuelta but despite all of his linguistic prowess, he did not succeed.

Which is worst, someone saying a danish name with an english pronunciation or saying it with a swedish or norwegian pronunciation?

 

[ingsve]

The first name: The d is silent and the A is pronounced like it would be in an Italian word. The ers ending is pronounced quite like the English word 'us'.

The second name: This d is also silent. Fol is not pronounced weirdly, but the 'ager' is probably not that easy. This a is flat (meaning it's pronounced like in the word flat), while the g functions like a less festive version of the Spanish y (it's not a hard g so you can barely hear it). The 'er' at the end is not emphasised and is basically like it would be at the end of an English word.

Daniel Friebe also tried to say this during the Vuelta but despite all of his linguistic prowess, he did not succeed.

Seems like as an English speaker one would come a long way by just ignoring the d in both names and then just pronouncing the rest of the letters.

 

[kingjr]

New rule: The correct way to pronounce anyone's name is how it sounds when you ask them their name.

New rule: From now on, we'll pronounce Pogačar's name the way Adrie van der Poel does.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Wonderful idea. Let’s not pronounce anybody’s name then before we hear them pronounce it themselves first… will work beautifully

I had absolutely no idea how to pronounce Blo Blo Blo's name until I saw that clip of him saying it. Then it stuck although I'm sure the accent is not right. Same with Pogacar.

 

[Hugh Januss]

But this discussion is getting a bit too high maintenance. If all of you want to pronounce Jorgenson as jerkin' son, knock yourselves out.

It's an O not an E sound in American. If you want to hear it pronounced as Yergenson in the US you would have to travel to a dairy farm in Minnesota.

 

[Netserk]

It's an O not an E sound in American. If you want to hear it pronounced as Yergenson in the US you would have to travel to a dairy farm in Minnesota.

My guess is that even in Minnesota, you will hardly find anyone who says it with only two syllables.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That wasn't really my point, though...
Matteo Jorgenson was being accused of butchering his own name because he doesn't pronounce it in Danish.

Please quote the person accusing Jorgenson of anything.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Please quote the person accusing Jorgenson of anything.

Accusing the practice that he is part of, and therefore implicitly anyone including him that does it )although not him explicitly), I find a number of quotable posts, which all have *something* in common:

It's why we get this crap with commentators pronouncing Jorgenson as if it were an American name.

A person's name doesn't change because he or she is incapable of pronouncing it correctly. And if we shouldn't try to pronounce the name correctly, then why even bother pronouncing it incorrectly in a different language instead of incorrectly in your own language.

So you feel that after all is said and done, the person who's name it is, actually decides how his name is pronounced then? Yes? In that case...

It may be natural that THEIR pronunciation of the name could change. Still doesn't make it the correct pronunciation. If they develop a lisp, will you also start pronouncing it like that?

The core concept of names is to identify people and to determine lineage, over time and regardless of location. In most countries you inherit your surname from your father. ...
When you move from one country to another, your name nor its pronunciation changes. Subsequently your name also shouldn't change when you have children, ...

Assuming she herself pronounces the name correctly, yes.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

There's a certain intellectual laziness that comes with being a native English speaker. There's just not the need nor the will to learn any foreign languages. That's why when people actually try to pronounce words correctly they come off as pretentious snobs. Conversely when they pretend to do so but actually do a very bad job, English speakers aren't able to tell the difference either.

For reference: every Dutch accent ever done in any Hollywood movie or series. All equally terrible, all sounding nothing like a Dutchman. That's an experience you'll never get to have when you grew up speaking English: watching Oppenheimer and hearing Cillian Murphy supposedly speaking Dutch, but doing such a terrible job that not a single Dutch speaker understood a single word he said... and he won an Oscar for that role!

That also translates to national dialects. I grew up in the US south, and I can tell you that in movies TV shows, I am always rolling my eyes, or just turing off movies or shows where the characters are trying to sound southern. Even within the south, there are dialects and accents that are vastly different. Listen to someone from South Boston, Virginia or Tangier Island, Virginia, Goldsboro, NC, any of the islands where Gullah culture is present, or someone from Texas. None of them sound anything like each other, and pronumciations are vastly different. Lets not even talk about Louisanna.

I follow a guy on social media named Sunn m'Cheaux, who talks about linguistics and sociological aspects of language and culture. He's a great resource and thinker on the topic of lingusitics and language.

Remember that every word is an arbitrary group of sounds that are not inherent in any way to the thing they name, describe, or transition. The only reason to assess language in a scale of corret to incorrect, is to set up an exclusive barrier for a given group. Pronounciation doesn't actually matter, unless the person listening is not conveyed the meaning or intent of the language. If they still understand who you are talking about, or what you mean, then the words have fully served their purpose, regardless of the prononuncation. Grammar rules in England were developed in an arbitrary manner to exclude poor people from being "proper," which is not exclusive to England. It's really all BS.

 

[Netserk]

Remember that every word is an arbitrary group of sounds that are not inherent in any way to the thing they name, describe, or transition. The only reason to assess language in a scale of corret to incorrect, is to set up an exclusive barrier for a given group.

I only knew of mama as a counterexample, but there's apparently several such words with almost universal sound.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Please forfeit your position of mod asap.

Did Logic actually deactivate his account because of this exchange? That might be the single most thin-skinned behaviour I've ever seen.