Schleck 7w/kg

[LaFlorecita]

I wonder what is FTP?

 

[Marcus135]

Michele Ferrari wrote on his blog once (cant recall which article was..) that numbers over 6 w/kg start to be suspicious.

I heard from a power specialist that it was 6.2 or 6.4 watts per kilo threshold (cant remember which but i think 6.2) was the maximum humanly possible and that over that was considered a sign of doping. He said Cadel was on 6.2 also and that was the highest ever recorded by an Australian athlete ever by a long way.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I wonder what is FTP?

functional threshold power

 

[LaFlorecita]

functional threshold power

Which means..

 

[Michele]

In simple words, after that X thershold level your muscles produce more acid latic than they can get rid off.

 

[LaFlorecita]

In simple words, after that X thershold level your muscles produce more acid latic than they can get rid off.

Thanks!
.......

 

[virandociclista]

Which means..

the highest average power that you can hold for one hour!

 

[biopass]

I heard from a power specialist that it was 6.2 or 6.4 watts per kilo threshold (cant remember which but i think 6.2) was the maximum humanly possible and that over that was considered a sign of doping. He said Cadel was on 6.2 also and that was the highest ever recorded by an Australian athlete ever by a long way.

Boardmans hour record has an average of 6.4 watts per kilo. Thats why its considered the maximum of clean performance.

 

[Nilsson]

So these numbers are wrong as well?

Those numbers are wrong, because the data used for the underlying calculations are wrong, and therefore the conclusions of Vayer/Lemond are wrong as well...

Contador did the Verbier climb around 6.78 W/kg...

 

[Nilsson]

Boardmans hour record has an average of 6.4 watts per kilo. Thats why its considered the maximum of clean performance.

By whom? Boardman is from the nineties. Also in his 2000 hour record (original style) was done at around 400 Watt, which is 5.8 W/kg...

 

[Bumeington]

By whom? Boardman is from the nineties. Also in his 2000 hour record (original style) was done at around 400 Watt, which is 5.8 W/kg...

Peter Keen, who sort of coached Boardman for hour attempts, said his 1996 hour in the superman position was 442W, he probably weighed 69kg. The 2000 hour was around 400W from the same source but he was at the tail end of his career then and was simply not as good. The athlete's hour is a bit of a weak record (hence why Sosenka was able to beat it) compared to the hours of Rominger with two disks and Boardman in the superman. Rominger's record is estimated at ~460W and he was pretty light (maybe 67?) but imo epo fueled.

 

[simoni]

Those numbers are wrong, because the data used for the underlying calculations are wrong, and therefore the conclusions of Vayer/Lemond are wrong as well...

Contador did the Verbier climb around 6.78 W/kg...

Thats nowhere near an hour though. More like 20minutes from memory.

I was under the impression that the "magic" watts/kg figures was the FTP one.

 

[Nilsson]

Peter Keen, who sort of coached Boardman for hour attempts, said his 1996 hour in the superman position was 442W, he probably weighed 69kg. The 2000 hour was around 400W from the same source but he was at the tail end of his career then and was simply not as good. The athlete's hour is a bit of a weak record (hence why Sosenka was able to beat it) compared to the hours of Rominger with two disks and Boardman in the superman. Rominger's record is estimated at ~460W and he was pretty light (maybe 67?) but imo epo fueled.

Romiger's record was, indeed, outrageous, but Boardman's '96 was pretty nineties as well. In every possible way not quite the clean standard...

 

[Nilsson]

Thats nowhere near an hour though. More like 20minutes from memory.

I was under the impression that the "magic" watts/kg figures was the FTP one.

Yes, the Verbier-effort was 20 minutes and 55 seconds at 6.78 W/kg. It's also why I call him the ultimate 20 minute rider. His FTP is, of course lower. Probably in the range of 6.2-6.4 W/kg...

 

[wannab]

I was under the impression that the "magic" watts/kg figures was the FTP one.

True, for sure for grand tours.
Ferrari said the "magic number" was 6.7w/kg to win le tour (or top tour contenders, something a like).

Thats why I find next quote funny

Michele Ferrari wrote on his blog once (cant recall which article was..) that numbers over 6 w/kg start to be suspicious.

Although suspicious doesn't mean impossible but 6.7 seems a huge leap


And shouldn't there be a, more or less, linear relation to P20 and P60? So if contador has the ultimate 20min effort, it's more likely he has the highest FTP as well

 

[THISISIT]

Thats nowhere near an hour though. More like 20minutes from memory.

I was under the impression that the "magic" watts/kg figures was the FTP one.

I was always under the impression that it was for decisive Tour length climbs, so something like 30 minutes, which I would guess is somewhere near or even less than FTP given that FTP is a fresh maximum one hour effort but you're talking about doing big climbs after a few hours of cycling usually including previous significant amounts of climbing.

 

[meat puppet]

In simple words, after that X thershold level your muscles produce more acid latic than they can get rid off.

Isn't that actually the definition of the so called aerobic threshold, between base endurance and tempo zones? As far as I know, the lower threshold is typically situated around the concentration of 1.5mmol/l of lactate in blood.

Below the lower threshold pace, lactate does not accumulate; the body processes it and it's gone.

However, surely lactate accumulates in tempo riding, between the thresholds. Only that its accumulation is somewhat linear with the increase in effort, because most of the power is generated via oxidization of fat and glycogen.

At a certain point this changes. This is the lactic or anaerobic threshold.

Going past it, lactate accumulates in a non-linear relation to increase in effort, since power is generated increasingly by tapping the anaerobic system. Depending on the ramp test protocol, the upper threshold is situated around the concentration of 2,5-4mmol/l of lactate in blood or so. Depends a bit on the rider as well, I take it.

When they go over the upper threshold, into the red zone that is, lactate starts building up real fast. Also the gains in power produced / increase of effort ratio diminshes while the lactate produced / increase in effort ratio grows. This is so because the power gains must be increasingly tapped from the anaerobic metabolism tank, and this produces lactate. Massive amounts of it. I myself have clocked in 16mmol/l in a ramp test at max effort. Nothing to do with being a very good rider, I aint, just to illustrate the nonlinearity of the lactate build up.

The FTP usually refers to a power at or a bit above the upper threshold. It is sustainable for an hour or so. This is the pace that the W/kg ratio refers to. To me, the ratio always presupposes an hour's effort, but without exact times it is obviously more haphazard. As for 20min efforts, I'd wager 105% of the FTP is the max.

So the threshold is a kind of stalemate situation. Power production is not aerobic anymore, but not quite anaerobic yet.

Contador, it has been said, has an excellent lactic tolerance. Makes sense. When both in top form, TDF 2009 (no comment), he heftily beat Schleck in a climb of 20mins, but when the effort was longer, the advantage related to anaerobic energy metabolism and lactic tolerance tended to diminish a bit. And they climbed even steven. Schleck is also explosive, but seems to lack the tolerance for longer anaerobic efforts.

Ferrari's 6,7 obviously points to the EPO era. Science of Sport guys determined 6,2w/kg as the yardstick of credibility. I like to be conservativem, here. Today, 6+w/kg is the point when this song starts to play in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8piMHsOya4

In the Giro, for instance, it's been mainly upper fives. Which is good.

So, to put it in clinicese: 6w/kg should be good, looks good on the paper, but in fact might be too good for its own good.

 

[Gregga]

Actually, one shoudn't compare numbers for the hour which attempt is done with full recovery and numbers of the last ascent of the third week of a GT when you're supposed to be very tired.

So, the 6,4W/kg of '96 Boardman could be honnest, but I've always thought (and I've read the same somewhere in the Clinic) that Boadman took EPO only once in his life, just to beat this Rominger-Ferrari record. IMO, his 2000 hour was clean, 'cause he was chalenging Merckx and not EPO-Rominger, as his attempt to become a GT contender in 95 & 96.

 

[Michele]

So the threshold is a kind of stalemate situation. Power production is not aerobic anymore, but not quite anaerobic yet.

Cheers for the correction.

 

[Michele]

True, for sure for grand tours.
Ferrari said the "magic number" was 6.7w/kg to win le tour (or top tour contenders, something a like).

Thats why I find next quote funny


Although suspicious doesn't mean impossible but 6.7 seems a huge leap


And shouldn't there be a, more or less, linear relation to P20 and P60? So if contador has the ultimate 20min effort, it's more likely he has the highest FTP as well

I dont think he meant that values over 6 means clear doping, but that its a sort of human limit.

 

[function]

And shouldn't there be a, more or less, linear relation to P20 and P60? So if contador has the ultimate 20min effort, it's more likely he has the highest FTP as well

There is a relation but it's not linear because a 20minute effort can be greatly influenced by vo2max power, which contributes less the longer the duration.

 

[Gregga]

For many (normal) riders, CP60 or FTP power = 0.93 CP20
With the effect of blood doping on the lactate tolerance that's another story...

 

[Bumeington]

Actually, one shoudn't compare numbers for the hour which attempt is done with full recovery and numbers of the last ascent of the third week of a GT when you're supposed to be very tired.

So, the 6,4W/kg of '96 Boardman could be honnest, but I've always thought (and I've read the same somewhere in the Clinic) that Boadman took EPO only once in his life, just to beat this Rominger-Ferrari record. IMO, his 2000 hour was clean, 'cause he was chalenging Merckx and not EPO-Rominger, as his attempt to become a GT contender in 95 & 96.

What you read in the clinic was baseless speculation. Boardman was either always clean or always dirty imo. Anyway he put more than 1km into Rominger in the superman, assuming a simple cubic relation for power, Boardman could have beaten Rominger's distance, thanks to the superman position, with as little as 415W, not unreachable given he was at 410W in 1993.