Serotta bankrupt??

[Reformed]

i come in at 132, but will be glad to drink beer with you any time.

I got your back brother. Don't make it a double IPA or you may get in my "unfortunate" weight class.

 

[Notso Swift]

Ouch. I hope you don't mind us 6-4 plus boys encroaching on your territory. But tell me, it is 12:00 at night, your leaving Chili's, who do you want walking with you in the parking lot, another guy that weighs 150 or a guy that is 6-4 220? : ) Give us a little love, we may help you one day.

6'5" but still only 195, unfortunate that the "guns" are not biceps!

 

[ultimobici]

However my rather limited observation is that the need for custom frame fabrication is obsolete in the general market place. There are greater variety of sizes including women specific designs in mass production.

I'd disagree with that observation. Sizes in many ranges used to be in 1cm increments in the 80's but with the introduction of the TCR/Compact frame in the 90's Giant tried to narrow it down to as little as 3 or 4. They soon learned that that was too narrow but the damage had been done. Other manufacturers were already following suit. If anything there has been a bounce back towards the older sizing gaps, albeit only to 2cm jumps.

Never-mind the fact that a rider could get 2 totally different measurements and geometries in separate shops.

Very very true!

on a side note the problem I had with he custom fitting in the day was there was far too much attention to top tube length and seat tube length. Fitters tended to forget the significance of the HT and ST angles, BB drop etc...IMHO

Toptube length has always been important, but far too often the STA was ignored when comparing frames. HTA has little if any relevance to fit other than determining if there is toe overlap. BB drop is more of a factor in altering the way a frame handles. If stack & reach are used to compare frames, the BB drop/height is irrelevant for fit purposes.

 

[rickshaw]

Sorry to get back on topic but....

Reading between the lines I found Mr. S's interview less than optimistic. First he seemed to indicate all he had to do was sell his newish $1.4 million building. When asked where he would move to he replied he wasn't worried because there was lots of space available in the area. I'm thinking, if he has to sell his expensive real estate in a bad economy, with a glutted market this may not end well.

I did appreciate his candor and honesty. Most businesses in trouble find someone / something / anyone / anything to blame buy themselves.

 

[BroDeal]

Ben Serotta was fired from Serotta by the private equity group that recently bought the company. The CEO who ran the company for the last ~9 months was also canned. 40% of the workers were let go a week ago and Mike Lopez, who owns the business in CA that produces Serotta's carbon stuff, says the Serotta has ended its business relationship with him.

I think we can say Serotta is dead.

 

[Boeing]

So, let me get this clear... you are contradicting the initial and quite ridiculous statement and recounting with an agreement,

one dogmatic statement deserves another

stick to the words you put in your mouth not others

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Ben Serotta was fired from Serotta by the private equity group that recently bought the company. The CEO who ran the company for the last ~9 months was also canned. 40% of the workers were let go a week ago and Mike Lopez, who owns the business in CA that produces Serotta's carbon stuff, says the Serotta has ended its business relationship with him.

I think we can say Serotta is dead.

Posted on another forum..a somewhat contradictory view from those 'oh, how sad', comments elsewhere.

Quote-"Originally Posted by weatherman View Post
Yes, it certainly does seem there is 'another' side to this story--the following was posted by Howard Berkowitz on Facebook this morning (in response to comments about the Serotta situation). Recall that Howard was the interim CEO of Serotta and was rather unceremoniously fired by Bill upon his arrival. (From what I understand, I think he got just about the same treatment that Ben/Bill received, perhaps worse as I think his access was just shut down and no one even told him about it.)

Pasted comments:


Rich, for whatever reason I cannot leave a comment on the story about Ben Serotta in which you mentioned my name. Here is my take:
Unfortunately, in the years I have known Ben I have learned that the truth is a vague thing to him and the messaging serves his personal purpose. Without a doubt, he is one of the greatest bike innovators of the modern age, although he has done little innovating in the last decade. That said, his skills in running the business are non existent. The current owners took the company from the bank right before foreclosure do to that mismanagement in early 2012.
As far as the claims in the "letter"; he was not fired "without cause". Actually there was "cause" and I understand that it was detailed in the written correspondence he received to that effect. Secondly, Bill Watkins does not have the skill set to run the company. In fact, since he arrived less than one year ago, he alienated the entire staff (all of the artisans), wasted money on painting the inside of the factory and other such nonsense, and did not put any effort into building revenue with actual an SALES EFFORT. No on at 41 Geyser likes or respects him except Ben. That says it all.
The fact is that Ben and Bill were seemingly bent on a management takeover and were devaluing the company so they could get it cheap. That was the reason for the unauthorized, negative interviews they both gave to industry rags a couple of weeks ago.
I am only one guy and this is only my opinion so take it for what it is worth."

 

[Boeing]

With DCG holding the reigns now one can assume the acclaimed fit bike is headed to the archives at the museum is all I'm saying.

 

[hiero2]

The dealer vs. direct plan is a hard one. . .

Yeah - but I noticed in the Serotta rep repost that they addressed this by going MSRP strictly for factory direct. That takes most of the sting out of factory-direct competition, but allows the LBS unhappy customer, the no-nearby-LBS, and the hard to fit a place to land.

Just noticed - this is an update on a 2 yr old thread. Hmmm - well - my comment fits in a general sense anyway.

 

[Boeing]

Yeah - but I noticed in the Serotta rep repost that they addressed this by going MSRP strictly for factory direct. That takes most of the sting out of factory-direct competition, but allows the LBS unhappy customer, the no-nearby-LBS, and the hard to fit a place to land.

Just noticed - this is an update on a 2 yr old thread. Hmmm - well - my comment fits in a general sense anyway.

and I didnt notice till you pointed it out.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

In July of 2013, Serotta ceased manufacturing bicycles.

Serotta lays off 40% of workforce, planning shutdown

Ben Serotta: 'I will build bikes another day'

"As the Serotta bicycle company fulfills final orders and prepares to shut down bike production here, founder Ben Serotta said he intends to continue making bikes, under his name or another...."

"... Serotta said he and CEO Bill Watkins have been negotiating to "extricate" the Serotta brand from DCG...."

"In my view, one way or another, I, and likely some of the dedicated crew here, will be able to build bikes another day. When that would be and what those bikes might be called, I can't say...."

 

[durianrider]

If you aint building 800g carbon frames in China --(ed. (H)-- then your cycling frame company will prolly go bust in 2013.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

If you aint building 800g carbon frames in China --- then your cycling frame company will prolly go bust in 2013.

Wow, you should let your compatriots Darrell Llewellyn and Darren Baum know that their shops are going to close down this year. I'm sure they'll be relieved to hear the news from you.

 

[Boeing]

If you aint building 800g carbon frames in China --- then your cycling frame company will prolly go bust in 2013.

Concur however to make this a little more constructive. At Least we wont have to see frames made to a ridiculous top tube length and absurd steep head angle and slack seat angle because a shop bike fit kit guru fit guy and rider misunderstood the basic geometry performance in favor of alleged stretched out comfort.

not a slam on Ben and his company. a slam to the bike shops misusing the fit bike.

 

[Boeing]

Wow, you should let your compatriots Darrell Llewellyn and Darren Baum know that their shops are going to close down this year. I'm sure they'll be relieved to hear the news from you.

google boy returns

 

[BroDeal]

Concur however to make this a little more constructive. At Least we wont have to see frames made to a ridiculous top tube length and absurd steep head angle and slack seat angle because a shop bike fit kit guru fit guy and rider misunderstood the basic geometry performance in favor of alleged stretched out comfort.

not a slam on Ben and his company. a slam to the bike shops misusing the fit bike.

On the former Serotta's forum, now the Paceline, there is a thread, titled "Honoring a great brand," filled with pics of people's Serottas. After looking through that thread I understand why Serotta died. There are more hideous stem extensions and angled stems than you can shake a stick at. It looks like a good percentage of the members were fitted by Rivendell's Grant Peterson School of Bike Fit, also known as Ol' Hike Those Bars U. While I realize that you could probably make a similar thread about ugly Treks or Specializeds, when a large portion of a company's bikes that people see look faster backwards then the company has a problem.

 

[ustabe]

On the former Serotta's forum, now the Paceline, there is a thread, titled "Honoring a great brand," filled with pics of people's Serottas. After looking through that thread I understand why Serotta died. There are more hideous stem extensions and angled stems than you can shake a stick at. It looks like a good percentage of the members were fitted by Rivendell's Grant Peterson School of Bike Fit, also known as Ol' Hike Those Bars U. While I realize that you could probably make a similar thread about ugly Treks or Specializeds, when a large portion of a company's bikes that people see look faster backwards then the company has a problem.

A lot of those Serotta customers simply got old.

I'm seeing a disproportionate number of Serottas come through our shop with flat bars, riser stems, stem extensions, and fat-**** saddles. And I need to plead guilty for helping some of them along, especially by fitting longer brake and shift cables.

My guess is that most guys who think they're too old for the Tarmac simply sell it or give it to their kids, and buy a new hybrid for themselves. The Serotta owners have so much invested in these bikes that they'd rather fred them up than give them up.

Serotta's market simply eroded out from under them. With Di2, EPS, 1000 gram wheelsets, and extra-hyper modulus carbon all competing for the dollars of performance oriented professionals, plus the diminishing of that customer base either through age or recession, high performance custom frames just became de-prioritized.

 

[Boeing]

Ok to clarify what I should of said was that information was clearly googled. sorry to offend long time readers

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

A lot of those Serotta customers simply got old.

I'm seeing a disproportionate number of Serottas come through our shop with flat bars, riser stems, stem extensions, and fat-**** saddles. And I need to plead guilty for helping some of them along, especially by fitting longer brake and shift cables.

My guess is that most guys who think they're too old for the Tarmac simply sell it or give it to their kids, and buy a new hybrid for themselves. The Serotta owners have so much invested in these bikes that they'd rather fred them up than give them up.

Serotta's market simply eroded out from under them. With Di2, EPS, 1000 gram wheelsets, and extra-hyper modulus carbon all competing for the dollars of performance oriented professionals, plus the diminishing of that customer base either through age or recession, high performance custom frames just became de-prioritized.

Agree with everything you pointed out there except for that last bit. I've never seen so many custom builder's bikes represented at races than in the last few years, seems to be growing. Must be a geographical thing.

 

[ustabe]

Agree with everything you pointed out there except for that last bit. I've never seen so many custom builder's bikes represented at races than in the last few years, seems to be growing. Must be a geographical thing.

Yeah, we're hanging with different groups. Around here I rarely see a custom bike that's less than ten years old.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A lot of those Serotta customers simply got old.

I'm seeing a disproportionate number of Serottas come through our shop with flat bars, riser stems, stem extensions, and fat-**** saddles. And I need to plead guilty for helping some of them along, especially by fitting longer brake and shift cables.

My guess is that most guys who think they're too old for the Tarmac simply sell it or give it to their kids, and buy a new hybrid for themselves. The Serotta owners have so much invested in these bikes that they'd rather fred them up than give them up.

Serotta's market simply eroded out from under them. With Di2, EPS, 1000 gram wheelsets, and extra-hyper modulus carbon all competing for the dollars of performance oriented professionals, plus the diminishing of that customer base either through age or recession, high performance custom frames just became de-prioritized.

They completely ignored economy of scale. They also forgot, 'do one(or 2) things and do them well. They were and could have been again, successful at all steel and ti frames, and stay small-mid sized. But Ben never saw a bike design 'gizmo' he didn't like plus he thought he could expand to the 2000 frames+ per year level. Rear suspension on road frames(Moots), carbon plugs in ti(Seven), carbon **** ends(lots), carbon(lots). They became succesful on steel and ti, competitve and well made. When driving, Ben let the wheels come off.

Many small-ish US frame builders are wildly successful. IF, Moots, Seven, Parlee(altho they are off shore with some) come to mind. Baum, Storck, others also do well in the 'high performance custom frame', department but is that market small? Sure, Builders need to recognize that and not try to be or compete with trekspecializedgiant. Be what they aren't.

 

[hiero2]

They completely ignored economy of scale. They also forgot, 'do one(or 2) things and do them well. They were and could have been again, successful at all steel and ti frames, and stay small-mid sized. But Ben never saw a bike design 'gizmo' he didn't like plus he thought he could expand to the 2000 frames+ per year level. Rear suspension on road frames(Moots), carbon plugs in ti(Seven), carbon **** ends(lots), carbon(lots). They became succesful on steel and ti, competitve and well made. When driving, Ben let the wheels come off.

Many small-ish US frame builders are wildly successful. IF, Moots, Seven, Parlee(altho they are off shore with some) come to mind. Baum, Storck, others also do well in the 'high performance custom frame', department but is that market small? Sure, Builders need to recognize that and not try to be or compete with trekspecializedgiant. Be what they aren't.

All good points. To be fully fair, though, Serotta might have been able to make the market upgrade in mfr size. But, the market is competitive, and as you point out already has several successful large mfr's extant and successful. You have to sufficiently differentiate to succeed in making such a change. Serotta didn't. Which is also part of your point, I guess.

 

[Race Radio]

Zinn's take on Serotta

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...kes-some-soul-out-of-u-s-framebuilding_299896

I can't say I agree with much of it but worth the read.

There are some very successful custom builders. They focus on on their customer base and deliver great service. Serotta lost the plot years ago.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I didn't see this in the thread: Ben wasn't paying at least some of his employees.

http://saratogaindecline.blogspot.com/2013/08/media-darling-serotta-cycles-will-cease.html

When they WERE paid, it wasn't much. Which is typical. Lots of guys can do the material joining, few can turn it into a branded business.

That Zinn article really makes it sound like nothing was going on when Zinn got started. That was *totally* untrue. But, if you are out to inflate the Zinn brand, it does sounds better.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I didn't see this in the thread: Ben wasn't paying at least some of his employees.

http://saratogaindecline.blogspot.com/2013/08/media-darling-serotta-cycles-will-cease.html

When they WERE paid, it wasn't much. Which is typical. Lots of guys can do the material joining, few can turn it into a branded business.

That Zinn article really makes it sound like nothing was going on when Zinn got started. That was *totally* untrue. But, if you are out to inflate the Zinn brand, it does sounds better.

There was a lot going on in the frame building world but not a lot in the US or places other than Europe. Early 70s.