Set TFF free.

[Anonymous]

I have often wondered why forums do not use a policy of moderation transparency. No one is forced to use their real names and few members do so. No one will be embarrassed in real life by their actions on a forum unless they voluntarily chose to use their real names.

If that happened we would lose a few posters, riders, ds's, I think JV and Joe Papp are the only one whos ever had the courage to use their own names and look at the **** storm they get hit with. Even betsy has been hitten with the occasional hater.

 

[Ferminal]

I have often wondered why forums do not use a policy of moderation transparency. No one is forced to use their real names and few members do so. No one will be embarrassed in real life by their actions on a forum unless they voluntarily chose to use their real names. But moderators often use some sort of privacy argument to defend acting in secret. What is the problem with having everything out in the open?

One of the worst examples was DPF, a cesspool of secrecy and bad moderators pursuing personal agendas with everything made more galling by the holier than thou hypocrisy of the owner and his frequent lectures on integrity. Even worse is RBR, which permanently bans people for even attempting to discuss the actions of the moderators.

It's important to keep the inconsistencies of moderation away from the public eye.

If mod actions were on the table for everyone to see, any person would be able to connect a few dots and make any decision look inconsistent.

But effective moderation is imprecise, and is inconsistent, it has to be. Moderation needs to be case-by-case with plenty of sound judgement and common sense. It's good that the mods here are kind enough to give a basic explanation as to why a member was banned and for how long.

Also, the more we get concerned with moderation, the more it would interfere with proper content. If everyone could see other member's warn level etc it's just another thing to go off-topic about.

My only concern is that sometimes bans appear premature. I thought TFF had been quite a good boy recently and all of a sudden he's suspended. I'd prefer suspensions to be a last resort rather than a primary means of punishment. Of course now I'm just speculating (sorry Cal_Joe ) and TFF could have been given plenty of warnings recently.

****, I didn't read the whole thread yet, will repost in the other. Don't ban me!

 

[Cobblestoned]

I really miss this guy
TFF is so funny, honest and direct
He needs a soft hand and people have to understand how to handle him and his posts.

Let TFF write !

Especially under the circumstances that the biggest pig of them all can still go on as if there never happened anything.
Hard to accept, but the day will come...

 

[180mmCrank]

I really miss this guy
TFF is so funny, honest and direct
He needs a soft hand and people have to understand how to handle him and his posts.

Let TFF write !

...

Likewise - I enjoy robust dialogue. And there are ways of being funny, honest and direct that don't involve abusive language. There are other places on the net where it's ok to converse in this way but it's not here. We will continue to do our best to keep things civil and about cycling - we don't always get it right but we do our best.

Complete transparency sounds great in theory until you end up spending hour upon hour trying to justify actions and apparent inconsistencies. I think a pretty good balance is struck here between keeping some things private and letting people know the boundaries of what is acceptable. This is something moderators discuss at length. Your feedback continues to be appreciated.

You need to keep in mind that most moderators are volunteers.

Onwards and upwards.

Terry

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I have often wondered why forums do not use a policy of moderation transparency. No one is forced to use their real names and few members do so. No one will be embarrassed in real life by their actions on a forum unless they voluntarily chose to use their real names. But moderators often use some sort of privacy argument to defend acting in secret. What is the problem with having everything out in the open?

One of the worst examples was DPF, a cesspool of secrecy and bad moderators pursuing personal agendas with everything made more galling by the holier than thou hypocrisy of the owner and his frequent lectures on integrity. Even worse is RBR, which permanently bans people for even attempting to discuss the actions of the moderators.

I come here for racing, clinic and riding discussions. I go to rbr if I want to talk about what light or saddle is the new new thing.

The ratio of racing posts in here is like 10:1 to rbr's. It's fun watching a stage or a race and keeping abreast of the chatter via the race's official thread.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks Albrto, we try to keep it that way.

TFF is very knowledgeable about the sport and will be back at some point, but there has to be a line drawn, and he has to know he crossed it.

Keep in mind folks this is a public forum for all to read, including children if they wanted. We want this forum to be welcoming to anyone and everyone. If it becomes a pub for people insulting each other in inner circles, or ones who freely toss about foul language or such, it doesn't benefit anyone.

 

[python]

Thanks Albrto, we try to keep it that way.

TFF is very knowledgeable about the sport and will be back at some point, but there has to be a line drawn, and he has to know he crossed it.

Keep in mind folks this is a public forum for all to read, including children if they wanted. We want this forum to be welcoming to anyone and everyone. If it becomes a pub for people insulting each other in inner circles, or ones who freely toss about foul language or such, it doesn't benefit anyone.

alpe, i have nothing to add to your valid points but to draw the readers attention to some basic facts - unlike other recently banned members, (the name is omitted to keep it level), tff never whines about the injustice befalling him.
. in fact, i'm sure tff said in apost he can't think of an incident where he was moderated unfairly. let's be fair, this is a unique reaction !

this is in sharp contrast with just about any other poster who expressed public displeasure re being moderated.

tff is one honest, valuable, self-reflecting member of the forum who deserves
being looked at fairly compared to the others. im out of here.

 

[Anonymous]

alpe, i have nothing to add to your valid points but to draw the readers attention to some basic facts - unlike other recently banned members, (the name is omitted to keep it level), tff never whines about the injustice befalling him. .

because as weve been told tff accepted he was out of order. Maybe some members think their bans where harsh (and also were not warned they would be banned for what they had done)

If you are talking about me, i was banned for insulting a mod for issuing me a warning for talking about doping outside of the clinic, which i didnt do

Anyway.. nice to see CHrisE has been banned. dont see everyone asking for his return.

 

[Martin318is]

As has been said - this is a public forum that hopes to remain viable for ALL levels of new members be it age, experience, knowlege of cycling, etc. As such ANY swearing or other breach of rules is seen as a serious matter. I am sure that TFF will agree when he returns that his comments were excessive and were in the context of other warnings he had received that week and that the response was appropriate.

TFF is very much a valued member of this forum and he has NOT been singled out for moderator attention. He overstepped a boundary and received a penalty that any other member would have received. I am sure we will all welcome him back next week

 

[hiero2]

because as weve been told tff accepted he was out of order. Maybe some members think their bans where harsh (and also were not warned they would be banned for what they had done)

If you are talking about me, i was banned for insulting a mod for issuing me a warning for talking about doping outside of the clinic, which i didnt do

Anyway.. nice to see CHrisE has been banned. dont see everyone asking for his return.

Well - actually, I did ask for his return - but between the lines, not openly. I have no knowledge of the overall actions of ChrisE - I've only seen a few posts of his. He could have a huge history of inappropriate behavior of which I am unaware - but which the mods DO know of.

I have been a mod of other groups, and I am very aware of the difficulty of this position. It is far more difficult to make a decision stick online than it would be if the group were face-to-face. The limit of the typed word is evident. Members are far more likely to be disrespectful of a mod's decision, or of the mod, when protected by the semi-anonymity of the online media. It is not pretty, and it is not good. Requiring transparency only invites online friction.

When we are not face-to-face, when we are, at least in part, anonymous, we are far more likely to fling excrement. When anyone can feel free to fling excrement, we all are forced to be excrement-slingers. This is not a good thing - in spite of those who would cry "free speech". The excrement-slinging enabled by the anonymity of the internet is more akin to the "shouting 'FIRE' in a crowded theater" limitation on free speech than it is to the printed (and protected) broadsides of previous generations (typified by Thomas Paine).

As for myself, I am in favor of bringing ChrisE back - but I don't know his history. I know nothing of TFF, but I do know a thing or two about crowds, mobs, and FUD.

So, I say to give the mods slack unless you have specifics. If the specifics don't convince ALL the mods, then depart, leave, begone, hie your heels to another group, where, perchance, you may find true happiness. Otherwise, the mods deserve some respect.

Now, that all sounds very serious, but it ignores one case. What happens when we get banned from a forum for which there IS no reasonable replacement, and it is truly unfair? That has happened to me, and I do feel that the banning was completely unfair, and disregarded a balanced treatment of the case. But it still happened, so I must live with it - and I can never return to that forum. Other forums have sprung up, which are similar to, but not quite the equivalent of, that forum. So? Tuff luck for me, eh? We live, we learn. Life can be harsh, and has no requirement to be fair.

Btw - when I read this it all sounds VERY preachy. Shucks, I don't really want it to - but it just came out that way.

I really hope you have a wonderful day - and a good ride to top it off!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

...this is in sharp contrast with just about any other poster who expressed public displeasure re being moderated.

If only you knew...

Actually, I get the impression you do.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

TFF will be back this weekend. But he's also back in law school and will likely be posting less one way or the other.

Chris E will be back, but it's going to be a while.

BTW - Very good post hiero2, even if a little peachy.

 

[TexPat]

For whatever it's worth--I find this forum like university and most others like high school. I do agree that sometimes the level of civility slips a bit, but relatively speaking, this place is light years ahead in thoughtful discourse. Furthermore, I don't often feel like it's a waste of time to read or post. As for the man called TFF, I sense his frustration (hell, it's obvious!) when things go a bit haywire due to remarks made by the clearly ignorant, un-informed, or disingenuous.
I've been known to bang my head against the wall from time to time for similar reasons.
Let's hope that TFF puts that law degree to proper use.

Hats off to the mods.

Tempus fugit

Mike Anderson

 

[auscyclefan94]

I still think my suspension was unfair

What i will say, is its fine having rules, but the rules are buried at the bottom of the forum where hardly anybody ever goes, i didnt know they were there until someone drew my attention to them.
If there are going to be rules, shouldnt they be somewhere obvious?

What exactly did you do?

looking through his recent posts i cant see anything worth a ban, unless hes fallen foul of the new avoiding the censored words rule. He's had a couple of mods going to see him recently by the looks of it.

Although to be fair, how any rules can be enforced when the rule list is buried away at the bottom of the forum where nobody can see them god only knows.

I didn't even know there was a rules list. And I am being deadly serious!

Is TFF's ban temporary or permanent as he has a few in the past? Anyway, I think all of the bans for TFF have been well justified! The funny thing is that I have had 5 infractions in the past but no bans!!!

 

[Anonymous]

What exactly did you do?



I didn't even know there was a rules list. And I am being deadly serious!

Is TFF's ban temporary or permanent as he has a few in the past? Anyway, I think all of the bans for TFF have been well justified! The funny thing is that I have had 5 infractions in the past but no bans!!!

thats because if you are ever banned the crying will cause the universe to spontaneously combust.

 

[Inner Peace]

This forum is over-moderated in my opinion

I would like to voice my displeasure about the nanny state this place is becoming. Swear words are simply that; words. How can anyone ever be offended by a collation of letters that over history has been defined to be something 'rude' ??

I don't think saying things like sh!t, or fvck, or even the dreaded 'c word' with clever little symbols is in any way offensive. People who get offended by that CHOOSE to. You cannot literally take offence to something without CHOOSING to, right?

For what it is worth, I find it hilarious that people are being banned for a few nasty words, yet the poster who passionately supports Evans once threatened (jokingly, i hope) to stab Andy Schleck for even daring to voice his opinion about dear cuddles, and just admitted that he's never been banned. It was a funny comment to read, and most knew (or hoped) he was joking, but it goes against the whole "oh will somebody think of the children" argument that seems to be going on here.

So yeah, I think the rules here are a joke. Whatever happened to free speech? You should be able to say, type, write whatever you want - what's a few swear words and death threats between forumites? really, it's a bit over the top moderating that kind of natural human interaction

Also - I asked for my account to be deleted about a month ago? What's up with that? Can it PLEASE be deleted? Otherwise, I might just try and get myself banned. It seems voluntarily asking for your account to be deleted is not extreme enough to ignite action ;-)

By the way, I do like reading this forum as the majority here are knowledgable contributors, but it's painful to know that i'm signed up here still, and a little embarassing when I tell my mates that i'm signed up here - if I could somehow self-terminate this account I would

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

PLEASE[/U] be deleted? Otherwise, I might just try and get myself banned. It seems voluntarily asking for your account to be deleted is not extreme enough to ignite action ;-)

By the way, I do like reading this forum as the majority here are knowledgable contributors, but it's painful to know that i'm signed up here still, and a little embarassing when I tell my mates that i'm signed up here - if I could somehow self-terminate this account I would

Send me a PM confirming this request and I will take care of it.

Susan

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This forum is over-moderated in my opinion

I would like to voice my displeasure about the nanny state this place is becoming. Swear words are simply that; words. How can anyone ever be offended by a collation of letters that over history has been defined to be something 'rude' ??

I don't think saying things like sh!t, or fvck, or even the dreaded 'c word' with clever little symbols is in any way offensive. People who get offended by that CHOOSE to. You cannot literally take offense to something without CHOOSING to, right?

For what it is worth, I find it hilarious that people are being banned for a few nasty words, yet the poster who passionately supports Evans once threatened (jokingly, i hope) to stab Andy Schleck for even daring to voice his opinion about dear cuddles, and just admitted that he's never been banned. It was a funny comment to read, and most knew (or hoped) he was joking, but it goes against the whole "oh will somebody think of the children" argument that seems to be going on here.

So yeah, I think the rules here are a joke. Whatever happened to free speech? You should be able to say, type, write whatever you want - what's a few swear words and death threats between forumites? really, it's a bit over the top moderating that kind of natural human interaction

Also - I asked for my account to be deleted about a month ago? What's up with that? Can it PLEASE be deleted? Otherwise, I might just try and get myself banned. It seems voluntarily asking for your account to be deleted is not extreme enough to ignite action ;-)

By the way, I do like reading this forum as the majority here are knowledgable contributors, but it's painful to know that i'm signed up here still, and a little embarassing when I tell my mates that i'm signed up here - if I could somehow self-terminate this account I would

By in large I agree with you except for the highlighted above.

Its the abuse of of other posters that has got some banned, not the profanities themselves.
Your post has not been edited in any way - nor have you been banned, so that ruins your argument.

Personally using swear words is no big deal -and indeed some articles on the front page have contained swear words.
Although if a poster is only able to articulate themselves with constant use of it then it adds little to the decorum of the place and does need action - but again the mods use their common sense to good effect.

 

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I am not sure which comment I was banned for. I made a remark about Coolhand and BPC (called him mentally ill, something that 2 moderators on this forum have expressed to me in PM's), and I also called the governor of AZ a ____ moron (which is a true statement). The PM sent to me gives a link to the comment, but it has been deleted.

I knew it was coming. They had been warning me for weeks, and I am fully aware that I walk the line many times, and that at some point, that becomes taxing to moderators. No biggie on the suspension as last week was a freaking BEAR in terms of school work. Of course, so is this weeks. I figure I deserved it if not for that, than for something in the past. Accumulative karma or some such thing.

I did take the time to go confront Coolhand on RBR. I used the fact that proxy servers and unlimited email accounts can be used to subvert bans to engage in quite a battle with him. He used my real name at one point, and I went ballistic. I emailed the owners of the forum, I threatened to spread everything I know about him (which is quite a lot actually) on every cycling forum in existence. He sent me an email begging me to stop subverting his bans, and saying that he would take the post down. He took it down, and I didn't bother him much after that. I was too busy. I did tell him that I would return and confront him any time I felt he deserved it. He has been kind of quite since then I think. He even deleted the whole thread.

Oh well, I am back.

Is TFF's ban temporary or permanent as he has a few in the past? Anyway, I think all of the bans for TFF have been well justified! The funny thing is that I have had 5 infractions in the past but no bans!!!

Hey ACF, you might not have been banned, but you sure whine like a little girl about your warnings. Grow a set and act like a man how bout it?

 

[auscyclefan94]

thats because if you are ever banned the crying will cause the universe to spontaneously combust.

I am planning on getting banned just before I go on holidays!!!

 

[Anonymous]

I am planning on getting banned just before I go on holidays!!!

to be fair, i think you have been lucky. I think the mods go easy on you because of your age. You have got away with far worse than i and many others have been suspended for.

Ive no idea, honestly, how you havnt been suspended at some point.

 

[Anonymous]

to be fair, i think you have been lucky. I think the mods go easy on you because of your age. You have got away with far worse than i and many others have been suspended for.

Ive no idea, honestly, how you havnt been suspended at some point.

and to clarify, i got a warning for discussing doping in the main forum (which i didnt) so i kicked off and called a mod a patronising **** and a couple of other things and got banned for it.

 

[Anonymous]

and to clarify, i got a warning for discussing doping in the main forum (which i didnt) so i kicked off and called a mod a patronising **** and a couple of other things and got banned for it.

Sounds very reasonable to me, not sure I follow how that was a problem.

 

[The Hitch]

By in large I agree with you except for the highlighted above.

Its the abuse of of other posters that has got some banned, not the profanities themselves.
Your post has not been edited in any way - nor have you been banned, so that ruins your argument.

Personally using swear words is no big deal -and indeed some articles on the front page have contained swear words.
Although if a poster is only able to articulate themselves with constant use of it then it adds little to the decorum of the place and does need action - but again the mods use their common sense to good effect.

No more. Moondance got banned for using swearwords in a post. He was merely paraphrasing scarface. He was not absuing any other posters or for that matter, anybody.

I got a warning for using the f word, again, against no body.

I personaly dont mind a no swear words rule so long as we know about it but it seems a no swearing rule is now in place.

 

[The Hitch]

thats because if you are ever banned the crying will cause the universe to spontaneously combust.

Something tells me ACF has a ban awaiting him. THe mods are just waiting for Cadel Evans to win his next race and then BAM.

I mean ban.