Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

[Parrulo]

just did some digging and got it figured out now, didn't know Darryl was the ex pro bobbins was talking about (silly me)

either way, some posts were deleted and bobbins will be handed a 1 month ban for way over the top insults.

 

[Benotti69]

hey let's cool it down every1.

i am not particularly up to date with this thread, sorry for that, but what does bobbins means with the "didn't you have a breakdown?" part? it sounds like a dig at Darryl Webster, but some insight would be appreciated

I think a PM to Daryl would be better about any 'breakdown' than in the thread.

 

[The Hitch]

I think a lot of things have changed since 1999, which make an LA scam less likely to pull off, the much greater use of the internet being one of them.

If team sky where doping in 2012 i have no doubt credible evidence will appear fairly quickly, however I don't think they were so I am not worried about it.

So you are saying doping as a whole.is pointless in all.sports.now because "the internet" exists and this dooms anyone who dopes to exposure and shame?

Do you understand the concept of a conspiracy? That the whole point of it is to make sure nothing comes out.

If the uci is willing to cover up your tests - and they clearly are if.not with sky then with others, and you keep.the doping and knowledge of.it.limited to people you trust, who have as much.motive to.keep the secret as you, ( in other words do you want to not get caught) how the hell is the presence of the internet going.to.out you?

 

[The Hitch]

I think you are rather conflating the 'view of the world' and the 'the view of the UK's media'. I don't think QI is exactly a barometer of world opinion.

In most of the UK Merckx is a marginal figure, and Coppi is what you do on a Xerox - that's not an ailment everywhere.

I didn't say people think like the.media.i said they get their news perceptions from the media. And the only time they ever hear about the tour de france the story is about doping. They may not read the articles just the headlines, but the only time they hear about the tour its- drugs.

I don't get your point about merckx and coppi. I said in.my post that lance is the only rider most average jos ever heard of. So of.course in the uk no one knows who.coppi was

 

[del1962]

So you are saying doping as a whole.is pointless in all.sports.now because "the internet" exists and this dooms anyone who dopes to exposure and shame?

Do you understand the concept of a conspiracy? That the whole point of it is to make sure nothing comes out.

If the uci is willing to cover up your tests - and they clearly are if.not with sky then with others, and you keep.the doping and knowledge of.it.limited to people you trust, who have as much.motive to.keep the secret as you, ( in other words do you want to not get caught) how the hell is the presence of the internet going.to.out you?

Of course I understand the concept of conspiracy, though I think many in this day are adversely effected by your standard TV BS like spooks, etc. Normally were people see conspiracy it is in fact just incompetence that is involved.

The UCI have cover up tests because they wrongly beleived it would harm
cyclings rep, but the Armstrong stuff came out in the end.

The internet means there is more questioning, if credible evidence is there it will spread much quicker etc, journalists will take it up.

I guess that you werent edcated prior to the 1980s which might explain some of your problem with basic logic, and you fall into post modernist bs.

 

[Joachim]

So you are saying doping as a whole.is pointless in all.sports.now because "the internet" exists and this dooms anyone who dopes to exposure and shame?

Do you understand the concept of a conspiracy? That the whole point of it is to make sure nothing comes out.

If the uci is willing to cover up your tests - and they clearly are if.not with sky then with others, and you keep.the doping and knowledge of.it.limited to people you trust, who have as much.motive to.keep the secret as you, ( in other words do you want to not get caught) how the hell is the presence of the internet going.to.out you?

If you look closely, you'll see he didnt mention the Internet once.

The Amstrong conspiracy wasn't exposed by the Internet by the way.

 

[Darryl Webster]

I think a PM to Daryl would be better about any 'breakdown' than in the thread.

Its quite ok Benotti. Basic history of my breakdown was that around the year 2000, following the breakdown of a long term relationship and , in the same period, the death of my father at the age of 58 from bone cancer I was gripped by severe depression that led to a couple of suicide attempts. Nothing particularly unusual in that in such circumstances and looking back the personal growth , insight and understanding I've gained means I don`t view it as a wholly negative period in my life.
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of .

 

[Joachim]

Certainly isn't to be ashamed of, nor does it have any relevance to the quality of your posts which ought to be judged on their own merit rather than denigrated by using your own misfortune against you.

Unfortunately, there is a heavy precedent for personal attack on this forum.

 

[Tinman]

Its quite ok Benotti...

Good on ya Darryl for added disclosure, which was not at all necessary by the way, but adds to your cred. I continue to appreciate your posts here. And good to see the swift and appropriate moderation in the thread also.

 

[Benotti69]

Its quite ok Benotti. Basic history of my breakdown was that around the year 2000, following the breakdown of a long term relationship and , in the same period, the death of my father at the age of 58 from bone cancer I was gripped by severe depression that led to a couple of suicide attempts. Nothing particularly unusual in that in such circumstances and looking back the personal growth , insight and understanding I've gained means I don`t view it as a wholly negative period in my life.
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of .

No problem Daryl. Felt Parrulo should've asked by PM rather than on the thread.

But no harm done.

Glad you are posting here regurlalry.

Nothing to be ashamed of is right.

 

[Parrulo]

Its quite ok Benotti. Basic history of my breakdown was that around the year 2000, following the breakdown of a long term relationship and , in the same period, the death of my father at the age of 58 from bone cancer I was gripped by severe depression that led to a couple of suicide attempts. Nothing particularly unusual in that in such circumstances and looking back the personal growth , insight and understanding I've gained means I don`t view it as a wholly negative period in my life.
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of .

indeed nothing to be ashamed off, been in a similar situation myself so i understand what you have been through.

almost wants to make me consider bobbins ban and make it permanent . . .

either way shall we proceed with the discussion?

 

[zalacain]

Interesting face at the bottom of this supplement page
http://x2t.com/195353
Through his involvement with LivSmarter, Shane brings the scientific and methodical, yet supportive approach to men’s weight loss that has brought him so much success in his coaching career.

 

[The Hitch]

Of course I understand the concept of conspiracy, though I think many in this day are adversely effected by your standard TV BS like spooks, etc. Normally were people see conspiracy it is in fact just incompetence that is involved.

The UCI have cover up tests because they wrongly beleived it would harm
cyclings rep, but the Armstrong stuff came out in the end.

The internet means there is more questioning, if credible evidence is there it will spread much quicker etc, journalists will take it up.
.

Wait these same journalists who stayed by Armstrongs side for years after credible evidence emerged, even though the internet has been around all this time?

Also im surprised to see you have reached the conclusion that the Mcquaid and co will no longer be pro doping because they lost on Armstrong. Its certainly the first time ive heard that line of logic. Certrainly since Mcqauid has not stopped making stupid comments and defending the UCI's behaviour.

I guess that you werent edcated prior to the 1980s which might explain some of your problem with basic logic, and you fall into post modernist bs

On the contrary i like logic. I just dont think its so clear here.

You say the internet because it helps information spread is such a powerful anti doping weapon. What you seem to be ignoring is that dopers dont seek to stop information from spreading, they seek to stop it ever seeing the light of day.

From where i am standing people usually get caught because they test positive. This generally makes the news whether there is internet or not.THey can get caught if they admit, if teammates admit, or if their doctors are investigated.

In absolutely none of these scenarios is the internet a variable. Of Course with better technology news spreads quicker and reaches more people, but the evidence itself is not reliant on modern communication methods to come out.

And plese do feel free to tell me how the post 80's education system has tricked me into this incorrect line of thinking?

A second flaw in your argument is that you put 2 points in a chart, Lance 1999 and Wiggins 2012, and compare the power of the internet on those 2 carefully selected dates.

The reality is that the internet has been around for half this doping era.

The internet wasnt invented in 2010, i mean its been around in its current all consuming form since about 2002, -3 years into the lance era. Facebook is what 2004 and youtube 2005. Most of the major doping scandals have taken place since then

The whole Lance debate has taken place in that timeframe.

 

[The Hitch]

Unfortunately, there is a heavy precedent for personal attack on this forum.

Like this

I guess that you werent edcated prior to the 1980s which might explain some of your problem with basic logic, and you fall into post modernist bs.

 

[Joachim]

Like this

Oh really? How is that a personal attack?

 

[martinvickers]

I didn't say people think like the.media.i said they get their news perceptions from the media. And the only time they ever hear about the tour de france the story is about doping. They may not read the articles just the headlines, but the only time they hear about the tour its- drugs.

I don't get your point about merckx and coppi. I said in.my post that lance is the only rider most average jos ever heard of. So of.course in the uk no one knows who.coppi was

The point is that UK people get their views from the UK media*. French people don't. German people, spanish people, dutch people don't.

The average joes you refer to are UK average joes - late adopters to road cycling generally; if they remember Lemond they're practically hardcore! For many of them, cycling is C4, phil liggett, Lemond and Fignon, Roche and Delgado,Indurain and Armstrong - that's the extent of their history. They think like the tour started in '81, and Hinault is prehistoric.

They, generally speaking, esteem Track as just as important as road, a view they seem to share only really with the aussies. Same olympic obsesssions probably!

But that's the UK view, not the world view, because many countries, my own anglosphere one included have a somewhat longer history of interest in continental road racing, and a larger amount of cycling history to consider when these stories are brought up.

It's one reason why we irish are in 'so deep' on the issue, both for the good - walsh, kimmage, - and the bad - mcquad, arguably roche mór.


(*Because of a shared language, there is some overlap - UK people may get some US, irish and Aussie news as well, but I doubt many UK sports fans, for example, know jimmy magee, whereas most irish know phil liggitt.)

 

[sniper]

You think Brailsford is more intelligent than Bruyneel?

regardless, Brailsford has the obvious advantage that in the past coupla years he could simply sit back, enjoy the theatre, and learn.
Bruyneel/Lance as a case study of how to cheat major league and then shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[orbeas]

Shane Sutton

Its quite ok Benotti. Basic history of my breakdown was that around the year 2000, following the breakdown of a long term relationship and , in the same period, the death of my father at the age of 58 from bone cancer I was gripped by severe depression that led to a couple of suicide attempts. Nothing particularly unusual in that in such circumstances and looking back the personal growth , insight and understanding I've gained means I don`t view it as a wholly negative period in my life.
Certainly nothing to be ashamed of .

Darryl you were a class act on a bike and are still one on the various forums - keep it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[martinvickers]

regardless, Brailsford has the obvious advantage that in the past coupla years he could simply sit back, enjoy the theatre, and learn.
Bruyneel/Lance as a case study of how to cheat major league and then shoot yourself in the foot.

Sky started in 2009. Bruyneels foot revealed firearms damage in mid 2012. We knew he was dirty as a truckstop toilet, if we cared to look - Landis and Hamilton saw to that - but we didn't know the detail, the 'marginal gains' type stuff until the reasoned decision. I know Yates at all would have 'some' knowledge of the 'system' - but very few really seemed to know the exact Bruyneel/Armstrong workings, even within USPS - Bruyneel didn't seem like the type to share the wealth on his 'knowledge', beyond perhaps Armstrong himself. Can't imagine he made it particularly easy for Brailsford to find out?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The point is that UK people get their views from the UK media*. French people don't. German people, spanish people, dutch people don't.

The average joes you refer to are UK average joes - late adopters to road cycling generally; if they remember Lemond they're practically hardcore! For many of them, cycling is C4, phil liggett, Lemond and Fignon, Roche and Delgado,Indurain and Armstrong - that's the extent of their history. They think like the tour started in '81, and Hinault is prehistoric.

They, generally speaking, esteem Track as just as important as road, a view they seem to share only really with the aussies. Same olympic obsesssions probably!

But that's the UK view, not the world view, because many countries, my own anglosphere one included have a somewhat longer history of interest in continental road racing, and a larger amount of cycling history to consider when these stories are brought up.

It's one reason why we irish are in 'so deep' on the issue, both for the good - walsh, kimmage, - and the bad - mcquad, arguably roche mór.


(*Because of a shared language, there is some overlap - UK people may get some US, irish and Aussie news as well, but I doubt many UK sports fans, for example, know jimmy magee, whereas most irish know phil liggitt.)

Great post Vickers. Maybe that's why these SKy threads are so friggin' long

Fair comparison in my eyes: UK road cycling fans vs USA soccer fans?

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>


..............arguably roche mór.

The only one arguing for him is the Roches. I doubt Roche beag is any better than his Father for doping!

 

[coinneach]

Certainly isn't to be ashamed of, nor does it have any relevance to the quality of your posts which ought to be judged on their own merit rather than denigrated by using your own misfortune against you.

Unfortunately, there is a heavy precedent for personal attack on this forum.

Totally agree...there are a lot more posters than Bobbins who dish it out unnecessarily. In fact I'd say it was an untypical post from him, IIRC

On a related (but off topic) I was interested in the response to this video about gun control in America

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2013/jan/08/alex-jones-pro-gun-tirade-piers-morgan-video

We seem to think that people who shout most and are most passionate about what they say, "win" the debate.

I'd really appreciate it if this forum, and its administrators, try to ride above that level of communication

 

[martinvickers]

The only one arguing for him is the Roches. I doubt Roche beag is any better than his Father for doping!

Roche mór is an interesting case; on the wild borderlands - clearly straggles the border between "ordinary decent criminal dopers" like Merckx, Kelly etc, and the EPO super dopers to come. His catch of Delgado on La Plagne remains the most spine tingling thing I've ever seen in cycling - but in the round, for obvious reasons, I prefer Kelly's Vuelta.

Still, if nothing else, Roche gave Walsh and Kimmage their dope-tracking training wheels.

As for Nic-een, actually, I rather think he is better- or at least was, until his latest move. Lord knows, his father complained about his "unwillingness to prepare professionally", preferably with Riis, often enough. The hint was about a s subtle as a kick to Lance's remaining nut.

 

[Benotti69]

Roche mór is an interesting case; on the wild borderlands - clearly straggles the border between "ordinary decent criminal dopers" like Merckx, Kelly etc, and the EPO super dopers to come. His catch of Delgado on La Plagne remains the most spine tingling thing I've ever seen in cycling - but in the round, for obvious reasons, I prefer Kelly's Vuelta.

Still, if nothing else, Roche gave Walsh and Kimmage their dope-tracking training wheels.

As for Nic-een, actually, I rather think he is better- or at least was, until his latest move. Lord knows, his father complained about his "unwillingness to prepare professionally", preferably with Riis, often enough. The hint was about a s subtle as a kick to Lance's remaining nut.

Nici-Beag's acussations against Kimmage and Walsh on national radio showed exactly where he stands in the peloton.....

 

[martinvickers]

Nici-Beag's acussations against Kimmage and Walsh on national radio showed exactly where he stands in the peloton.....

No, Benotti, it shows where he stands on his dad. you know that.