Should Rabobank send Freire to the Tour?

[Jamsque]

What are you getting so angry about? I'm just expressing my opinion about Menchov's GC chances. I don't have anything against the guy, hell I was rooting for him to beat Di Luca at last year's Giro. I fail to see how my pointing out what the ASO lists as the result of the '08 tour (which I never said I agreed with) justifies your tone.

 

[python]

What are you getting so angry about? I'm just expressing my opinion

somehow you keep attributing your own leaps in logic and cycling knowledge to my being angry about something you invented.

i am fine with your opinion on any rider including yes contador, my by far favourite rider, but it has nothing to do with the subject and you need to own up to your own incorrect statements.

let me remind you and everyone how you leaped and frogged.

in my post #15 i said,
“name another current gt rider besides berto who won or podiumed in all 3 gts”

you responded, in #21

Carlos Sastre, also, officially Menchov has not done it. His best tour finish is 4th”

That’s where your logical leap becomes a fallacy. because carlos sastre finished 4th in the 2009 giro by your own definition of “officially”, just like menchov 'oficially' finished 4th in the 2008 tour. both diluka and kohl suffered the same fate that allowed saster and menchov to move up.

apply the same standard to the two riders or own up to your leaps in logic.

your opinion is fine but don't forge facts to defend it.

 

[Jamsque]

It's not my definition of 'officially'. I don't work for the ASO, I'm not on the race jury. I am neither leaping nor frogging, you asked me to name another rider who has had podium finishes in all three GTs and I did. I'm sorry that you interpreted my comments as saying that Menchov hadn't, I was merely pointing out that the ASO disagrees with you.

But hey, go right ahead and call me ignorant.

 

[theyoungest]

Chill out. Not every comment is a personal attack against your favourite rider.

Like I said, no-one is questioning Menchov's GT credentials in general, but he is yet to put in a really strong performance at the Tour de France. There are plenty of guys who have won the Giro and the Vuelta and never come close to winning the Tour. Certainly this could be the year that changes that.

As for Gesink, he is something of an unknown quantity to me. His climbing prowess is talked up a lot, I'll be interested to see how well he goes after two weeks of hard racing.

Along with his VO2 max higher than 7 W/kg, Gesink's biggest strength is his consistency. That is, if he doesn't fall.

 

[python]

It's not my definition of 'officially'. I don't work for the ASO, I'm not on the race jury. I am neither leaping nor frogging, you asked me to name another rider who has had podium finishes in all three GTs and I did. I'm sorry that you interpreted my comments as saying that Menchov hadn't, I was merely pointing out that the ASO disagrees with you.

But hey, go right ahead and call me ignorant.

there you go again. i just explained how self-serving and flawed your logic and valuation scale was totally ignoring the same exact facts about sastre whilst applying them to enhance your opinion.


should i rehash here the same flawed logic you used to defend your favourite rider ?
what does aso have to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me ? ah get it, as much as rcs has to do with agreeing or disagreeing with you.

yes i asked to name another rider. you did. fine. if you stopped right there instead of going forging with twisted logic and double standards, id have no need to correct you.

but since you continued, i had to bring it up. do you really believe others are as obtuse as you ? or should we revisit the wiggins threads to make the point ?

 

[Jamsque]

Python? I'm sorry. On Carlos' wikipedia page he's listed as 3rd in the '09 Giro, so I assumed that Di Luca's 2nd had been stripped from him and everyone else had been moved up, but I just checked and he's appealing the decision so the ban is not in yet and Carlos is still listed as 4th for that Giro. It was an honest mistake, and for that I apologise. I would have appreciated it if you had pointed out my mistake instead of taking the tone you did.

BUT MOVING ON

Along with his VO2 max higher than 7 W/kg, Gesink's biggest strength is his consistency. That is, if he doesn't fall.

He's certainly ridden two very good Vueltas for a young rider.

I didn't realise that Friere was down to go to the Giro as well. Does anyone know if he is intending to go for the full race, or just do a couple weeks? I'm sure I read somewhere that he wanted to target the Worlds this year, which probably means doing at least a couple of weeks of the Vuelta too. That being the case it would seem unlikely that he would ride the Tour as well, but not impossible.

Still, if I was a Rabo DS and I thought he was physically up to riding three grand tours I'd take him to the Tour in a heartbeat. He has to be their best chance of winning a stage, and even if they do want to go for a GC push with Gesink and Menchov I think they can afford it. Rabo is not going to be expected to take control of the race in the way that Saxo, Shack and Astana are, and you can bet that they do manage to land the yellow jersey then Friere will work his *** off to defend it for them.

 

[python]

Python? I'm sorry. On Carlos' wikipedia page he's listed as 3rd in the '09 Giro, so I assumed that Di Luca's 2nd had been stripped from him and everyone else had been moved up, but I just checked and he's appealing the decision so the ban is not in yet and Carlos is still listed as 4th for that Giro. It was an honest mistake, and for that I apologise. I would have appreciated it if you had pointed out my mistake instead of taking the tone you did.

BUT MOVING ON

i thought i did point it out, in detail, and several times. but moving on. cheers.

 

[luckyboy]

As others have said Freire will ride the Giro & Vuelta for World's prep.
He'll podium at the very least at the World's.

Menchov will either come 2nd or 3rd in the Tour, and Gesink will be top 10.

I don't think it'd make much sense taking him to the Tour looking at what else he'll be racing.

 

[Kellys Big Sprocket]

Unless Rabobank need Oscar in their Tour set up for marketing exposure I feel Freire is at the stage of his career that he does need Le Tour. It would burn Oscar out both mentally and physically unless he does the early stages before the Cols but that's not in Rabobanks plan nor is it Freire's style. Instead Oscar should be staying fit and healthy with his focus firmly set on the Autumn Classics and of course not forgeting about another crack at the Worlds.

 

[riobonito92]

Gesink to has made huge progress over the last couple of seasons. Last year's vuelta a crash took his podium place away.

And last year's TdF crash and some accident pretty much every time he gets close to an important win . . . Gesink will need a lot of protection.

Menchov needs to stay upright too, but that's another story.

 

[maikel]

And last year's TdF crash and some accident pretty much every time he gets close to an important win . . . Gesink will need a lot of protection.

Menchov needs to stay upright too, but that's another story.

Both crashes last year in the Tour and Vuelta where not his fault, especially in the vuelta you could see that the rider in front of him crashed in a weird way and took Gesink with him. I think it's just bad luck for the guy, but wait for sunday then he will get that important win!

 

[blaxland]

Freire's doing the Giro, as it starts in Holland and he wants to do it at least once before his career is out.

If he wants to take a record 4th World title (which he does), he can't afford to do the Tour as well.

Agreed...except Freire wont win the worlds this year(even though the course is suited to him)the young guys are coming............

 

[Willy_Voet]

Freire is the only chance they have for a podium in any competition.

Gesink is guaranteed to fall short (pun intended) on at least 2 days putting paid to Rabo's hope for a top 25 from him.

I expect a solid 8th place overall from Menchov, with 4th place on at least 2 MTF's. Who knows, maybe he'll surprise us all and be near the front on a windy stage and get 3rd overall b/c of echelon riding/splits. I doubt it though.

---

Freire on the other hand has a 10% chance at any stage ending in a bunch sprint, whether after 3 cols or completely flat. I'd expect 1 stage win from him if he goes. Maybe that seems completely lackluster by Armstrong, Cipollini or Contador standards, but he's better than all the French riders put together.

He doesn't even need a lead-out train.

Take Freire. He deserves his own wild-card slot.

 

[Ferminal]

Carlos Sastre.

Also, officially Menchov has not done it. His best tour finish is 4th, but with an 'empty' 3rd place in front of him.

Menchov was the strongest in 2008 but couldn't stay upright. The only person who could've beaten him was Kohl - if his final refill didn't go bad.

In Menchov and Gesink, Rabobank have as good a pairing as Schleck and Schleck, Klöden/Leipheimer and Armstrong.

Of course Contador is going to win barring the extraordinary, but everyone still wants to race the tour, there's not many people thinking "We can't beat Bertie so why show up". In fact the Tour this year is going to be the strongest field of GC contenders in ages - together they have a ridiculous amount of wins/podiums. From 2006 onwards we are only missing Di Luca (suspended) and probably Valverde (suspended). All these guys know they are turning up for second place but they're happy to do it.

I'd like to see Freire win the worlds!

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

And last year's TdF crash and some accident pretty much every time he gets close to an important win . . . Gesink will need a lot of protection.

Menchov needs to stay upright too, but that's another story.

i agree. I notice a lot of people here don't rate or think gesink needs to prove himself. I can only assume they haven't seen some of his races, and had he not crashed would have some pretty decent results (paris-nice title, vuelta podium etc) on top of his already impressive career.

But yeah, he needs to stay upright

 

[kurtinsc]

Freire is the only chance they have for a podium in any competition.

Gesink is guaranteed to fall short (pun intended) on at least 2 days putting paid to Rabo's hope for a top 25 from him.

I expect a solid 8th place overall from Menchov, with 4th place on at least 2 MTF's. Who knows, maybe he'll surprise us all and be near the front on a windy stage and get 3rd overall b/c of echelon riding/splits. I doubt it though.

---

Freire on the other hand has a 10% chance at any stage ending in a bunch sprint, whether after 3 cols or completely flat. I'd expect 1 stage win from him if he goes. Maybe that seems completely lackluster by Armstrong, Cipollini or Contador standards, but he's better than all the French riders put together.

He doesn't even need a lead-out train.

Take Freire. He deserves his own wild-card slot.

You don't think Gesink will get a top 25?

Even with a crash I'd say he'll do at least that unless he crashes out entirely.

 

[blaxland]

As others have said Freire will ride the Giro & Vuelta for World's prep.
He'll podium at the very least at the World's.

Menchov will either come 2nd or 3rd in the Tour, and Gesink will be top 10.

I don't think it'd make much sense taking him to the Tour looking at what else he'll be racing.

"He'll podium at the very least at the worlds"Quote luckyboy
Are you willing to put a wager on that??

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Freire is the only chance they have for a podium in any competition.

Gesink is guaranteed to fall short (pun intended) on at least 2 days putting paid to Rabo's hope for a top 25 from him.

I expect a solid 8th place overall from Menchov, with 4th place on at least 2 MTF's. Who knows, maybe he'll surprise us all and be near the front on a windy stage and get 3rd overall b/c of echelon riding/splits. I doubt it though.

wow you clearly have no clue about cycling. not sure I've ever seen such an ignorant post.

 

[taiwan]

Yes, they should

Yes, they should.

 

[PinchFlat]

In an interview in today's Telegraaf Freire was quoted as saying 'Gesink in not a real winner. He is always good in tours. But winning is another story'. (This was in response to Freire taking leadership for Amstel)

So leaving Freire at home for the tour in order to bring more 'helpers' for Gesink would probably not sit well.

 

[theyoungest]

In an interview in today's Telegraaf Freire was quoted as saying 'Gesink in not a real winner. He is always good in tours. But winning is another story'. (This was in response to Freire taking leadership for Amstel)

So leaving Freire at home for the tour in order to bring more 'helpers' for Gesink would probably not sit well.

The Telegraaf is notorious for its misrepresentations of what people are trying to say, so I'd take this with a grain of salt. BTW, Freire also says that he takes the responsibility of being team leader, which could mean that he's trying to take the pressure away from Gesink's shoulders. You can explain this in more ways than one.

 

[craig1985]

Freire's doing the Giro, as it starts in Holland and he wants to do it at least once before his career is out.

If he wants to take a record 4th World title (which he does), he can't afford to do the Tour as well.

So Freire is planning on finishing the Giro? I had assumed he was going to abandon when all the sprinters do.

 

[issoisso]

So Freire is planning on finishing the Giro? I had assumed he was going to abandon when all the sprinters do.

I didn't say he was going to finish it. But he will ride. And He can't peak 4 times in a season, so if he wants to win the worlds, he's going to have to skip the worlds

 

[theyoungest]

I didn't say he was going to finish it. But he will ride. And He can't peak 4 times in a season, so if he wants to win the worlds, he's going to have to skip the worlds

And win it from his couch?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Should any team other than Saxo and Astana send any gc rider to the tour as they aren't going to win the gc?