Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

[BigMac]

And we'd have teams pulling out as a protest. In the end, this was the only affordable decision to the organisation and I'm sure the commissaires took that in mind. I could see Lotto Soudal, Giant, Katusha, Lotto - Jumbo, Bora and even Sky abandoning. Unfortunately the current instruments allow for this decision because of nuance in the rules. Organisation exploits it to their benefit and it's got nothing to do with being afraid of Sky or others, rather the repercussions the tantriums teams throw can have on their marketing and overall revenue, and I don't blame them. Do we need new rules? No, we need revision of the ones that exist so that they're strictly applied, and also a way to prevent teams from blackmailing the organisation.

 

[simoni]

Re:

Yet again cycling shoots itself in the foot with poorly drafted or poorly applied rules.

If there were no grey areas then there wouldn't be a problem. What is an exceptional circumstance?

But, the fact that this happened (and it doesn't happen much) automatically makes it an exceptional circumstance doesn't it?

Lets face it, theres no way that many riders were going to be booted out.

The big question should be whether the time limit rule works properly on such stages.

 

[Jagartrott]

Frank Hoste, ex pro-cyclist and director of Ghent-Wevelgem says he would've taken all 94 riders out, with the same arguments made here.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Frank Hoste, ex pro-cyclist and director of Ghent-Wevelgem says he would've taken all 94 riders out, with the same arguments made here.

One day boring sprinters' race director makes a statement on a decision he would never have to make for free publicity? That's really how I see that, even if I do agree with the decision he would make.

 

[saganboss]

Re: Re:

Frank Hoste, ex pro-cyclist and director of Ghent-Wevelgem says he would've taken all 94 riders out, with the same arguments made here.

One day boring sprinters' race director makes a statement on a decision he would never have to make for free publicity? That's really how I see that, even if I do agree with the decision he would make.

yeah, gent wevelgem 2015 was the most boring race ever.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe Sporza went and asked him, huh? Crazy thought.

 

[Billie]

Re: Re:

Frank Hoste, ex pro-cyclist and director of Ghent-Wevelgem says he would've taken all 94 riders out, with the same arguments made here.

One day boring sprinters' race director makes a statement on a decision he would never have to make for free publicity? That's really how I see that, even if I do agree with the decision he would make.

he said this in his role as analyst for radio not in his role as race director

 

[Billie]

Re:

Maybe Sporza went and asked him, huh? Crazy thought.

indeed. He works for sporza radio

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Frank Hoste, ex pro-cyclist and director of Ghent-Wevelgem says he would've taken all 94 riders out, with the same arguments made here.

One day boring sprinters' race director makes a statement on a decision he would never have to make for free publicity? That's really how I see that, even if I do agree with the decision he would make.

he said this in his role as analyst for radio not in his role as race director

Ok, as long as he was asked what he would do I suppose that's fair, I retract my previous statement in that case.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Maybe Sporza went and asked him, huh? Crazy thought.

There is no requirement to answer a question. He could have said "I've never been in that position and never would be".

If it was on the radio I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Maybe Sporza went and asked him, huh? Crazy thought.

There is no requirement to answer a question. He could have said "I've never been in that position and never would be".

If it was on the radio I wouldn't have a problem with it.

And why would he say that, instead of answering a straight question with a straight answer?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Maybe Sporza went and asked him, huh? Crazy thought.

There is no requirement to answer a question. He could have said "I've never been in that position and never would be".

If it was on the radio I wouldn't have a problem with it.

And why would he say that, instead of answering a straight question with a straight answer?

Because he's never been in the position to make the decision and has no idea of the pressures he would be under in the circumstances? He's not a random commentator on a website like us, he's the director of a race so his words will automatically be given more weight.

 

[hrotha]

What if that's his honest opinion? I'd wager he probably has a decent idea of what kind of pressure the teams would put up.

 

[doperhopper]

easy solution: form a "grupetto of shame" today, and launch them delayed the amount they "borrowed" yesterday, clearly stating there will be NO GIFTS anymore

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

And many thanks for corrections! Really do not remember any other Grand Tour stage like this :surprised: , this one is closest in my opinion.

There was another like that in Tour 2001, which catapulted Francois Simon and late Andrei Kivilev to overall contention (finishing 6th and 4th, respectively). That dreary, cold, rainy stage had a breakaway of 14 and peloton lagging 35 minutes behind.

btw, I don't think any Grand Tour-winner has ever come back from as far behind as Lance did that year. After that stage 8, he was 35:19 down to Stuart O'Grady in yellow.

Did not remember 2001, interesting point. Many thanks! So may be even Haimar Zubeldia may still win the Vuelta :lol: .

 

[Jaunty Monty]

Re:

Anyway I would support to disqualify all of the riders in grupetto today, since the riders show just contempt to the rest of the riders, race and fans and sponsors as well. What I pretty do not understand is why at least Sky with several riders did push hard to try to join Froome ... .

They did. The few times early in the stage the TV showed the third group it was being led by Sky. They were making no dent in catching Froomes group (with hindsight the second group may have been better waiting for the third group).

My guess is that only Sky (and probably Orica) from the 'gruppetto' tried to get back to the second group. Once it became clear they couldn't do it alone (or they simply ran out of energy) they sat up and no one else was prepared to contribute. Lets remember Sky and Orica had worked very hard the previous day (what were the other teams excuses?).

Its completely Skys fault they got caught by Contadors attack. It was amateurish and if they lost riders to the time limit then they can hardly complain. But lets not say they didn't try to get back to Froome (they did for a while at least) or that the decision not to DQ all the riders was in any way due to some of them being from Sky.

 

[Pantani_lives]

easy solution: form a "grupetto of shame" today, and launch them delayed the amount they "borrowed" yesterday, clearly stating there will be NO GIFTS anymore

The bunch would probably wait for them under pressure of the team managers and the sponsors. If those riders had been sent home there might have been a strike today, which would be an organizers' nightmare.

A problem is that those riders can influence the race they should have been thrown out of. One of them might win a stage. It's even possible that Froome still wins the Vuelta after a collective attack on Saturday or in a windy stage, with the help of teammates who saved their legs yesterday.

 

[carolina]

Nathan Haas was DSQ after finishing stage 12 out of the time limit. He actually had an excuse, since he was ill.

So, same race, same rule, different application of the rule. ok..

 

[veji11]

Fine their asses and DQ them all of today's stage : make today's stage a contest where only riders who tried yesterday can score.. others can work and pull, but not score...

 

[Pantani_lives]

Contador said on Eurosport that he thinks it's unfair to his teammates who did work hard and finish inside the time limit. Jan Bakelants said it's a kind of fraud and his chances for a stage win woud have been bigger without the leniency. So several riders disagree with the decision.

Menchov on the other hand said he understood the decision, that the organizers could hardly have done differently, and that finishing too late doesn't mean you haven't suffered at all.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe it would be enough to put a cap on how many riders you can kick out at once (say, 30) and DQ riders from the grupetto proportionally to how many per team there were. Taking yesterday as an example, knowing that as many as a third of them could be given the boot might have been enough to make them all ride, and if they don't, well, you won't have such a small peloton which would apparently be a huge problem for reasons that escape me.

The problem would be with the rounding, but I'm sure that could be worked out.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

What if that's his honest opinion? I'd wager he probably has a decent idea of what kind of pressure the teams would put up.

It might be, I just think it's very easy to make a comment without ever being in the situation and as a race director I think he could have just said no comment.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Maybe it would be enough to put a cap on how many riders you can kick out at once (say, 30) and DQ riders from the grupetto proportionally to how many per team there were. Taking yesterday as an example, knowing that as many as a third of them could be given the boot might have been enough to make them all ride, and if they don't, well, you won't have such a small peloton which would apparently be a huge problem for reasons that escape me.

The problem would be with the rounding, but I'm sure that could be worked out.

Nah just turn it into the hunger games : if more than 20% of the remaining peloton arrive past the TL, the last 20% of the peloton afte the TL are eliminated. At least they will race each other in a panic in the last kms ! 93 riders is more than 20% of 164, so you can't eliminate them all, but than they know that you will eliminate the last (20% of 164 =) 32 riders... That would be good rule.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Nah just turn it into the hunger games : if more than 20% of the remaining peloton arrive past the TL, the last 20% of the peloton afte the TL are eliminated. At least they will race each other in a panic in the last kms ! 93 riders is more than 20% of 164, so you can't eliminate them all, but than they know that you will eliminate the last (20% of 164 =) 32 riders... That would be good rule.

That should work, but... would it turn the grupetto into a mirror of the usual GC battles, with everybody waiting for the last few km to attack?

 

[Pantani_lives]

It would lead to weird situations like teammates sprinting against each other to stay in the race, or riders wheelsucking in the grupetto to save their skin with a good finish, while the grupetto workers go out.