should you hold a jersey if you finish outside time limit (twice)?

[pat_mac]

We had a long discussion on our Sunday club ride... most people felt Cavendish is a worthy winner.. a few felt – 'rules are rules..etc.. he could have stayed in the race but shouldn't have been allowed to keep the green jersey'..
As it's primarily a jersey fro the sprinters is this a fair comment?


any opinions?

 

[William H]

Rules are rules, and the rules say Cav won the Green Jersey.

 

[Zoncolan]

How many new threads do we need about this, really?
Whatever happened to think before you start a thread?
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=14610

 

[RownhamHill]

So are you saying you think Cadel Evans deserved to have won the green as well as the yellow jersey?

 

[valentius borealis]

So are you saying you think Cadel Evans deserved to have won the green as well as the yellow jersey?

If they used the point scoring system they use for the Giro, Cadel Evans would have won the green jersey.

 

[William H]

If they used the point scoring system they use for the Giro, Cadel Evans would have won the green jersey.

A good illustration of why the Giro points jersey is pointless. If it goes to some GC guy who couldn't care less about winning it, it adds absolutely nothing to the race.

 

[Escarabajo]

Is July over?

Please let it be over soon.

 

[Mambo95]

When half the peloton misses the time cut two days in a row, it isn't because those riders aren't good enough or didn't try hard enough. It's because the organizers set too hard a time limit. That's why they have the 20%, so if the organizers get it wrong (which is easy to do), it doesn't ruin the race.

 

[El Pistolero]

When half the peloton misses the time cut two days in a row, it isn't because those riders aren't good enough or didn't try hard enough. It's because the organizers set too hard a time limit. That's why they have the 20%, so if the organizers get it wrong (which is easy to do), it doesn't ruin the race.

Make a better time cut, but throw the people out who miss that one. Or at least double the amount of points you can lose if it's your second time missing the time cut. And I propose 45 points loss if you miss the time cut even if it's a mountain stage.

Gilbert for example missed the time cut on the Galibier, but probably could go faster as evidenced on the Alpe stage were he was 10 minutes in front of the time cut.

 

[boomcie]

Also think it should be revised one way or the other. Some people are simply not motivated enough to stay within the time limits right now.

 

[cyclopeon]

When half the peloton misses the time cut two days in a row, it isn't because those riders aren't good enough or didn't try hard enough. It's because the organizers set too hard a time limit. That's why they have the 20%, so if the organizers get it wrong (which is easy to do), it doesn't ruin the race.

Or maybe it's because they and their DSs know all about the fail-safe rule and are happy to trade green points for continuing. Really, if 80 riders come in together outside the time cut, then at least 78 of them aren't trying their hardest. It's a man's sport; I have no time for wimps in it.

The GC men have to keep up with the sprinters during the madness of flat stage finishes, so the sprinters can darn well work their a**s off in the mountains.

Trade-off: take the times at 10km to go on the flat stages, and I'll happily let the autobus come in as slowly as it wants without being sent home.

 

[MartinGT]

Rules are rules and they say he was allowed back in.

Get over it.

 

[Mambo95]

Or maybe it's because they and their DSs know all about the fail-safe rule and are happy to trade green points for continuing.

So why hasn't the autobus missed the time-cut in previous years? (And they very rarely do)

This year the organizers cut the time limit by about 3-4 minutes and suddenly 112 riders missed the cut in two mountain stages.

No you really think they got spontanteously 'lazy'?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Stage 21: Champs Elysees.
Who would have been left to contest the stage? Nobody who finished in the top 20.
After that, I gave up looking.


Oh and 9% cut off in a short, punchy HC climbing stage.
The 42km ITT: Have a guess?

 

[Hawkwood]

Or maybe it's because they and their DSs know all about the fail-safe rule and are happy to trade green points for continuing. Really, if 80 riders come in together outside the time cut, then at least 78 of them aren't trying their hardest. It's a man's sport; I have no time for wimps in it.

The GC men have to keep up with the sprinters during the madness of flat stage finishes, so the sprinters can darn well work their a**s off in the mountains.

Trade-off: take the times at 10km to go on the flat stages, and I'll happily let the autobus come in as slowly as it wants without being sent home.

Not sure I would describe any rider in the TDF as a `wimp'. These guys could tear the legs off any of us here over any terrain.

Many of the GC contendors do not `keep up with the sprinters', in reality they usually finish well down the bunch, but are credited with the same time as the winner, despite being several seconds down. If riders were given real times for all stages we might see some very different racing taking place.

 

[boomcie]

Not sure I would describe any rider in the TDF as a `wimp'. These guys could tear the legs off any of us here over any terrain.

It's also kind of their job. I know some very good mailmen who could tear your legs off regarding the delivery of mail in any kind of mailbox.

 

[Jeanne]

Where's the big problem? No one expects the sprinters to be strong and fast in the mountains. And it's not like they, or specifically Cav if you want, rolled in hours after the stage winners.

 

[Magnus]

So why hasn't the autobus missed the time-cut in previous years? (And they very rarely do)

This year the organizers cut the time limit by about 3-4 minutes and suddenly 112 riders missed the cut in two mountain stages.

No you really think they got spontanteously 'lazy'?

In stage 19 the time cut was extended compared to previous years (edit: wasn't cut).

 

[pedaling squares]

It's also kind of their job. I know some very good mailmen who could tear your legs off regarding the delivery of mail in any kind of mailbox.

Great comparison boomcie. Mailmen of course being selected for their jobs based on the combination of their huge natural talent and their palmares after years of delivering mail in the competitive development ranks.

It's their job, sure. But how did they get there?

 

[Richeypen]

Can we close this tread? How many do we need

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

So why hasn't the autobus missed the time-cut in previous years? (And they very rarely do)

This year the organizers cut the time limit by about 3-4 minutes and suddenly 112 riders missed the cut in two mountain stages.

No you really think they got spontanteously 'lazy'?

Yes they do. David Millar talked about it back at the start of his career. There were a number of riders who were very good at working out how many riders were in the bus and if they were over the 'can't kick us out threshold'. According to Millar once they'd worked out the bus was big enough they would just coast in knowing there was nothing could be done about it.

 

[pmcg76]

Personally I think that if a jersey fall outside the time limit, they should be eliminated from that competition, especially if it happens two days in a row.
I dont mean from the race if the autobus is huge as happened this year but from the competition they are competing in i.e Green Jersey, White Jersey etc.

The thing is the riders know that numbers in the autobus mean safety regardless of the time cut. Too many in the autobus are taking the ****. I have been to all three GTs and usually seen that many riders in the autobus are joking and laughing, having full blown conversations as they make their way to the finish. It has become too much of a safety net for may guys.

 

[JohnNordin]

The GC men have to keep up with the sprinters during the madness of flat stage finishes, so the sprinters can darn well work their a**s off in the mountains.

This is the only real issue right here. The slack allowed for sprinters is greater than the slack allowed (or taken) by GC guys. GC guys finish maybe 10-20 seconds behind the sprinters on the flat; sprinters finish 20min behind the GC guys on the hills.

This is why, while I respect the skill and talent of Cav and especially of his team, I just don't respect the form of the sprint competition. If they finished 20 min ahead of a GC guy, I'd get it.

So, I think there needs to be a series of graded penalties in the Green jersey competition for being slow. Take 5 points off for being over 15min behind (as an example, not holding to the specific numbers), 10 for being over 20, etc.

 

[pat_mac]

a quick apology for the duplicate thread.. ( first post etc.. i got all excited!)

 

[Mambo95]

This is the only real issue right here. The slack allowed for sprinters is greater than the slack allowed (or taken) by GC guys. GC guys finish maybe 10-20 seconds behind the sprinters on the flat; sprinters finish 20min behind the GC guys on the hills.

Physics isn't your strongest area of knowledge, is it?

Nor is cycling.