should you hold a jersey if you finish outside time limit (twice)?

[erader]

>>If they used the point scoring system they use for the Giro, Cadel Evans would have won the green jersey. <<

if my aunt had cojones she would have been my uncle.

erader

 

[boomcie]

Great comparison boomcie. Mailmen of course being selected for their jobs based on the combination of their huge natural talent and their palmares after years of delivering mail in the competitive development ranks.

It's their job, sure. But how did they get there?

I said great mailmen. Which makes the comparison awesome.
The mailmen elite force selection procedure is fierce.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

any rider outside of time limit should be removed from any jersey including yellow jersey gc. they should only be allowed in some exceptions to ride, but can't win stages anymore or be placed anywhere in gc or any other classification.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

On the Alpe d'Huez stage the grupetto finished just 20 seconds outside the time limit, so it is disngenious to suggest there was no effort made by all those riders.

I posted this in the other thread - but as a comparison, the first finisher in the recent Etape de Tour stage that finished on the Alpe time was 3.39:10 - the grupettos time was 3.28:52.

 

[JetSet]

any rider outside of time limit should be removed from any jersey including yellow jersey gc. they should only be allowed in some exceptions to ride, but can't win stages anymore or be placed anywhere in gc or any other classification.

So what would you have done after Stage 13 in 2006 when only 5 riders were inside the time limit?

Pete

 

[El Pistolero]

So what would you have done after Stage 13 in 2006 when only 5 riders were inside the time limit?

Pete

Would be a pretty cool race.

 

[Frosty]

Personally I think that if a jersey fall outside the time limit, they should be eliminated from that competition, especially if it happens two days in a row.
I dont mean from the race if the autobus is huge as happened this year but from the competition they are competing in i.e Green Jersey, White Jersey etc.

The thing is the riders know that numbers in the autobus mean safety regardless of the time cut. Too many in the autobus are taking the ****. I have been to all three GTs and usually seen that many riders in the autobus are joking and laughing, having full blown conversations as they make their way to the finish. It has become too much of a safety net for may guys.

Well i was on the Alpe on Friday and the guys in the autobus werent laughing, joking or having any kind of conversation as they came past where i was. None looked particularly distressed but they all seemed to be concentrating on the job in hand.

For me one of the problems is that the time limit is a %age of the total time but the main contenders will only usually properly race on the last climb or two. A 100km/3 hour stage may have a time limit of 25 minutes but it will be raced throughout. A 200km/6 hour stage may have a time limit of 50 minutes but the first half will only be raced lightly with the autobus 5-10 minutes behind. Then when the GC guys get going in the second half, the autobus will have 40-45 minutes to lose in the final 100km/3 hours.

 

[Mambo95]

So what would you have done after Stage 13 in 2006 when only 5 riders were inside the time limit?

Pete

Or stage 8 in 2001?
Or stage 14 in 1976?
Or stage 10 in 1926?

To name just three from throughout the ages.

 

[danjo007]

OP- maybe your sunday ride isnt hard enough. STOP talking.

 

[The Hitch]

A good illustration of why the Giro points jersey is pointless. If it goes to some GC guy who couldn't care less about winning it, it adds absolutely nothing to the race.

How is that an illustration? Cav wasnt eliminated from the Tour so the Giro jersey is pointless?

I think you are generalising.

Cadel and Vino fought hard in the latter stages to win the Giro points jersey in 2010.

If someone could have challenged Contador they would have, but even if you used a sprinters bias system like the Tour and put sprint stages in the 3rd week i still think he would have won he was that dominant finishing podium on 8 stages.

These last 2 Giros have been quite hard and loaded with mountains towards the end. Its not always the case. And when its not it means sprinters face GC guys for the jersey making it more interesting.

It was also more interesting in the Vuelta which uses the same points system. Cav still won though. If you used that system in the Vuelta, Gilbert would have been getting more points for some of his stage finishes, probably would have tried harder on some of them too, and it would have been a lot more interesting a battle. As it was there never really was any doubt who was going to win it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well i was on the Alpe on Friday and the guys in the autobus werent laughing, joking or having any kind of conversation as they came past where i was. None looked particularly distressed but they all seemed to be concentrating on the job in hand.

Exactly - they may not be going full gas on the climb (hardly a surprise as they are mostly sprinters, rouleurs or injured) but they set a steady pace so that they can keep together - its a simple and practical philosophy, as any rider can have a bad day and appreciates the assistance to finish.

For me one of the problems is that the time limit is a %age of the total time but the main contenders will only usually properly race on the last climb or two. A 100km/3 hour stage may have a time limit of 25 minutes but it will be raced throughout. A 200km/6 hour stage may have a time limit of 50 minutes but the first half will only be raced lightly with the autobus 5-10 minutes behind. Then when the GC guys get going in the second half, the autobus will have 40-45 minutes to lose in the final 100km/3 hours.

One thing to remember is that the grupetto will only know the time of the cut-off when the winner crosses the line - which in the case of the Alpe meant they had 27 minutes to cross the line from when they were notified and at that stage they would have been already been on the Alpe.

 

[erik saunders]

You don't miss the cut if they move the time back, which is how it's done. The pro forma time cut is just a target. They make the final decision after the race depending on how the day went.

If you miss the cut you're out, if you're still racing the next day then you didn't miss the time cut.

Did anybody say that YET?. There were too many people that don't know anything about bike racing for me to read through all the posts.

Just want to make sure the right answer is out there.

 

[erik saunders]

The group knows what the probable stage time will be at least as soon as they have the race bible... So days in advance. no need to wait til the winner crosses the line. The guys who know they will be riding for the limit have it dialed before breakfast.

Exactly - they may not be going full gas on the climb (hardly a surprise as they are mostly sprinters, rouleurs or injured) but they set a steady pace so that they can keep together - its a simple and practical philosophy, as any rider can have a bad day and appreciates the assistance to finish.



One thing to remember is that the grupetto will only know the time of the cut-off when the winner crosses the line - which in the case of the Alpe meant they had 27 minutes to cross the line from when they were notified and at that stage they would have been already been on the Alpe.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

So what would you have done after Stage 13 in 2006 when only 5 riders were inside the time limit?

Pete

same thing. this only happens once in 50 years or something and of course had tis rule been effective then, they would not have been finishing outside of time limit.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Yes they do. David Millar talked about it back at the start of his career. There were a number of riders who were very good at working out how many riders were in the bus and if they were over the 'can't kick us out threshold'. According to Millar once they'd worked out the bus was big enough they would just coast in knowing there was nothing could be done about it.

Well of course. I believe that Robbie M was an expert at working out exactly how much time was needed to make the cut and exactly when the autobus was big enough that they were safe.

Whatever the rules are people will find ways to make them work to their advantage.

 

[ultimobici]

The group knows what the probable stage time will be at least as soon as they have the race bible... So days in advance. no need to wait til the winner crosses the line. The guys who know they will be riding for the limit have it dialed before breakfast.

Exactly.

They know the probable time so they have a good guess at the time limit. But is all based on a probability not a certainty. A slight alteration in pace from the head of the race and all those calculations have to be redone. If there's a phoney war up ahead they are even less reliable as the fireworks will likely be fiercer come the last climb so skewing the winners speed in an unforeseeable way.

I find it amusing that people are slating the Autobus for coming in when they did. The margin by which they missed was so tiny it can only have been a mistake rather than a calculated act. Can you imagine the conversation? "Yeah, lets come in a minute or two over. That'll make it so much easier for tomorrow". Do me a favour, if they were colluding to save their legs by soft-pedalling they'd have been 15 minutes over.

The Autobus is a method by which the non-climbers & walking wounded get through the event. It is a communal effort designed to help each other. It's not some cynical attempt to get a free ride.

Some of you need to get your fat arses off the couch and actually ride a couple of multi-pass days back to back before you sit in judgement on these guys. Then you may have a little insight into the ordeal it must be for a 80kg guy like Petacchi or Boonen.

 

[woodie]

Exactly.

They know the probable time so they have a good guess at the time limit. But is all based on a probability not a certainty. A slight alteration in pace from the head of the race and all those calculations have to be redone. If there's a phoney war up ahead they are even less reliable as the fireworks will likely be fiercer come the last climb so skewing the winners speed in an unforeseeable way.

I find it amusing that people are slating the Autobus for coming in when they did. The margin by which they missed was so tiny it can only have been a mistake rather than a calculated act. Can you imagine the conversation? "Yeah, lets come in a minute or two over. That'll make it so much easier for tomorrow". Do me a favour, if they were colluding to save their legs by soft-pedalling they'd have been 15 minutes over.

The Autobus is a method by which the non-climbers & walking wounded get through the event. It is a communal effort designed to help each other. It's not some cynical attempt to get a free ride.

Some of you need to get your fat arses off the couch and actually ride a couple of multi-pass days back to back before you sit in judgement on these guys. Then you may have a little insight into the ordeal it must be for a 80kg guy like Petacchi or Boonen.

Damn straight!!

 

[Sem Travões]

I wonder, Cipollini, never won the green jersey as far as I remember, those flat first week stages were enought for him, these days even Gilbert is a sprinter in the first week.
Actually the green jersey was made for the most regular rider, but its quite stupid reason for a jersey IMO for that we already have the yellow, so if there's a jersey for the mountains, why not one for the sprinters, if he just climbs whitin the gruppeto fine with me, it will be the day that will take out of the race Thor, Gilbert, Boonen all in once just because they're "laziness"

 

[Four Winds]

The grupetto missed the time cut on Alpe d'Huez by about 20 seconds after 3 HC climbs. By all accounts many looked like they were about to cough their lungs up at the end. It's not like they had a comfortable day out in the sun.

 

[Pharazon]

The grupetto missed the time cut on Alpe d'Huez by about 20 seconds after 3 HC climbs. By all accounts many looked like they were about to cough their lungs up at the end. It's not like they had a comfortable day out in the sun.

not only that but on the previous day where the missed it by 2 mins, if i'm remembering right if the stage winner had finished 11 seconds quicker, they would have all made the time cut because it would have meant the winners speed was an extra km/h faster

 

[Winterfold]

One epic fail thread was not enough it seems, such is the magnificence of the multiple fail in that that we must relive it again

and it does not disappoint - I particularly enjoy Mrs John Murphys image of the grupetto 'coasting' to the mountain top finishes on the Galibier and Alpe d'Huez

Does it not bother you that the only thing you know about bike racing is drugs?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I wonder, Cipollini, never won the green jersey as far as I remember, those flat first week stages were enought for him, these days even Gilbert is a sprinter in the first week.
Actually the green jersey was made for the most regular rider, but its quite stupid reason for a jersey IMO for that we already have the yellow, so if there's a jersey for the mountains, why not one for the sprinters, if he just climbs whitin the gruppeto fine with me, it will be the day that will take out of the race Thor, Gilbert, Boonen all in once just because they're "laziness"

Although he did manage to win the Giro points 3 times. As I recall one of the things that annoyed people and eventually the organizers (which is why they stopped inviting him) was that he couldn't be bothered with the mountains in the TDF, but he could in the Giro.