Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[roundabout]

True, but this would be an actual race file from a rider who finished same time as second place on a climb like that. That's what makes it interesting.

 

[JRanton]

I really want Froome to be clean but I have to admit that it's a pretty remarkable transformation. In fairness to him he did show some decent GC stage racing potential as a 22/23 year old.

Does anyone remember this from last year's Giro? http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/471148/froome-disqualified-from-giro-d-italia.html

Now he has his own motorbike.

 

[luckyboy]

Hah, just read what Nibali said. Guess he could've said that about Froome if he had shown anything like this before

 

[Benotti69]

pretty simple really. If i say riders are doping or suspicious then I get riders, and riders families on my case, If I say riders are definately clean, then I get everyone else on my case, and look stupid down the line if it turns out they arent.

when i came back to the forum, one of the reasons for using the website name was that I am forced to keep out of arguments like this, except to correct known mistakes like the blood thing.

Ive already been involved in a couple of war of words, one when i suggested Barry shouldnt be in the giro squad at the time of the Landis Allegations and another when I suggested that a rider wasnt giving his all.

If you cant find a good thing to say, its sometimes better to say nothing.

That said, if a Sky rider fails a dope test, the editorial on the fansite will be very interesting to read. I wont hold back.

fair enough.

 

[Winterfold]

I love the way people can libel the entire peloton on here on the basis of 'facts' they made up, but a bit of mild sarcasm when one of those asks a really dumb question gets deleted.

hehehe

 

[lightclimber]

With all due respect, anyone who doesn't think Friggins is on the juice is a nutter.

 

[Anonymous]

I love the way people can libel the entire peloton on here on the basis of 'facts' they made up, but a bit of mild sarcasm when one of those asks a really dumb question gets deleted.

hehehe

fwiw i read your comment before it was deleted and didnt think anything of it. It almost made me smile.

 

[Winterfold]

It didnt occur to me that you would take it as an insult - but then got worried when I got my scolding from Susan.

Glad I was right initially.

So if ClubChammySniffer arent insulted? Who is? If a tree falls down in a forest etc

Ryan - GB cant control everything even if they try, dont believe in absolutes - cycling is life, and there are none.

 

[180mmCrank]

pretty simple really. If i say riders are doping or suspicious then I get riders, and riders families on my case, If I say riders are definately clean, then I get everyone else on my case, and look stupid down the line if it turns out they arent.

when i came back to the forum, one of the reasons for using the website name was that I am forced to keep out of arguments like this, except to correct known mistakes like the blood thing.

Ive already been involved in a couple of war of words, one when i suggested Barry shouldnt be in the giro squad at the time of the Landis Allegations and another when I suggested that a rider wasnt giving his all.

If you cant find a good thing to say, its sometimes better to say nothing.

That said, if a Sky rider fails a dope test, the editorial on the fansite will be very interesting to read. I wont hold back.

Well said.

 

[Fergoose]

Pushing the pace on the front from about 5km out at every mountaintop finish so far. Don't know what this proves, apart from his new-found super-climbing talent.

Well that's just a factual error and to suggest that making consecutive attacks away from a peloton going full tilt on back to back uphill stages is "irrelevant" when gauging a rider's performance isn't something I'd agree with either. I did think your (I think it was your) Barloworld point was a very fair one in the other thread and something I'd overlooked - although I'd argue they weren't as tainted as SD. SD seemed more to be told to take a hike whereas Barloworld's sponsors just seemed so disappointed they pulled the rug immediately.

If Froome beats a 5.9 w/kg in one of the last uphill climbs (depending on length of climb) I will be highly suspicious. If he ends up going off the front of the peloton, going head to head with Cobo and beating him, I'll be the very first to make a song and dance about it. I just don't see either thing happening. I think Sky will cut him loose in the race now as Wiggins looks relatively secure for third place, so we'll get a chance to see. I expect Froome to blow up if cut loose.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think his performance is not totally stretching credibility to the point of insulting me (unlike Cobo), but there are all sorts of things that don't quite add up.

Cobo has at least performed to this level before, even though his team was suspect at the time. Froome hasn't performed anything like this for even one day in his career. When he did it on La Covatilla, it was "what a ride from Froome". The ITT was worrying, but you could convince yourself it's not a problem because of how his ITT results seem to get better on longer ITTs, especially when he then lost time on La Manzaneda. But his performances over the weekend, whilst still pacing the lead group more than half the time, were wet-your-pants hilarious.

Cobo's stretching credibility. But if he's stretching it, Froome is contorting it beyond all belief.

There's a whole host of second rate gc riders and domestiques having amazing Vueltas and Froome is only one of them I dont think anyone could have predicted the current top ten before the race.

And each and every one of them bar Cobo is behind Froome, and the ones that are even halfway competitive have, to a man, much better career histories than Froome. Yet here he is, making them all look like chumps. Except one guy. One guy who has always been extremely talented, and who is also extremely likely to be juicing. If we're meant to believe that a juiced-up-to-his-eyeballs Cobo can only just beat a clean Chris Froome, then you really, really have some bizarre perceptions of the two's talent levels. Because you would then be actually believing that a clean Chris Froome would have beaten Kohl, Evans, Sánchez, Menchov and basically everybody except Fränk Schleck on Hautacam in 2008.

 

[Cycle Chic]

I,m puzzled as to why Froome and/or Cobo would make it so glaringly obvious !! why dont they hang back and just get in the top 5 or 10 and then no-one would take so much notice - I,m genuinely puzzled.

Like Vino, Ricco, Rasmussen - it was just a matter of time before they were busted. So why would these 2 do the same ? (Cobo and froome)

And why would Sky let Froome continue to ride so bizarrely out of his skin ? wouldnt they tell him to calm down as its bringing unwanted attention ?

 

[Fergoose]

But if, as many consider, you suspect Cobo has been taking PEDs in 2007, 2008 & 2011, you would not consider him to be "extremely talented" at all, just a cheat (and it is impossible to gauge the talent of a cheat - how talented was Piepoli or Ricco?). Unlike Wiggins and Froome, he has totally failed to produce any kind of reasonable performance for more than one team.

To honestly consider that Cobo's performances are less suspect than Froome's is certainly a different perspective - but that is what forums are for I guess.

Nobody has claimed Cobo is as doped as he appeared to be in 2008 in order to cruise uphill with Piepoli - Contador's clenbuterol positive last year despite a much inferior performance compared to previous years gives an indication that riders maybe can't reach the same crazy heights with undetected doping in the last couple of years.

Besides, I don't see any need for Cobo to crush the opposition to such an extent that he wins by minutes, that might be considered foolish. Just doing enough put the result beyond doubt seems to be the order of the day, which would explain why he only really kicked into full attack on the Angliru 4 or 5 kms from the finish (after having had a lead hovering around 10-12 seconds for quite some time).

Froome was free to race for the last few kms on Angliru, completely failed to shake off Menchov & Poels and could only come over the line 4th, behind them and therefore missing a crucial time bonus. I'd expect more from a decent climber and time trialist if they were on a similiar diet to what Cobo appears to be on. Admittedly, with the lack of cameras, its unclear if the crowds would have given Froome any opportunity to ease past the other two on the steeper section, but I think its still a valid observation.

 

[Benotti69]

Cobo has at least performed to this level before, even though his team was suspect at the time.

according to Millar it wasn't suspect it was systematic at Saunier Duval.

Froome hasn't performed anything like this for even one day in his career. When he did it on La Covatilla, it was "what a ride from Froome". The ITT was worrying, but you could convince yourself it's not a problem because of how his ITT results seem to get better on longer ITTs, especially when he then lost time on La Manzaneda. But his performances over the weekend, whilst still pacing the lead group more than half the time, were wet-your-pants hilarious.

Cobo's stretching credibility. But if he's stretching it, Froome is contorting it beyond all belief.

Cobo rides for Gianetti, so that in itself puts Cobo's performance dodgy, never mind his sudden improvement at La Vuelta and Froome well he seems to have come from nothing to second place in a GT and out performing his team leader who at least had a GT 4th place.

Yep suspect performances for sure.

And each and every one of them bar Cobo is behind Froome, and the ones that are even halfway competitive have, to a man, much better career histories than Froome. Yet here he is, making them all look like chumps. Except one guy. One guy who has always been extremely talented, and who is also extremely likely to be juicing. If we're meant to believe that a juiced-up-to-his-eyeballs Cobo can only just beat a clean Chris Froome, then you really, really have some bizarre perceptions of the two's talent levels. Because you would then be actually believing that a clean Chris Froome would have beaten Kohl, Evans, Sánchez, Menchov and basically everybody except Fränk Schleck on Hautacam in 2008.

I would love to hear Brailsford explain this one. It will be similar to the 'prose' of the UCI no doubt.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Froome was free to race for the last few kms on Angliru, completely failed to shake off Menchov & Poels and could only come over the line 4th, behind them and therefore missing a crucial time bonus. I'd expect more from a decent climber and time trialist if they were on a similiar diet to what Cobo appears to be on. Admittedly, with the lack of cameras, its unclear if the crowds would have given Froome any opportunity to ease past the other two on the steeper section, but I think its still a valid observation.

And you fail to consider the possibility that both are doping but one slightly more, or both are doping equally but Cobo's just a better cyclist than Froome.

The last time we had this kind of fairytale was Kohl, and before him Mosquera.

How did those fairytales end?

 

[roundabout]

Cobo has at least performed to this level before, even though his team was suspect at the time. Froome hasn't performed anything like this for even one day in his career. When he did it on La Covatilla, it was "what a ride from Froome". The ITT was worrying, but you could convince yourself it's not a problem because of how his ITT results seem to get better on longer ITTs, especially when he then lost time on La Manzaneda. But his performances over the weekend, whilst still pacing the lead group more than half the time, were wet-your-pants hilarious.

Cobo's stretching credibility. But if he's stretching it, Froome is contorting it beyond all belief.


And each and every one of them bar Cobo is behind Froome, and the ones that are even halfway competitive have, to a man, much better career histories than Froome. Yet here he is, making them all look like chumps. Except one guy. One guy who has always been extremely talented, and who is also extremely likely to be juicing. If we're meant to believe that a juiced-up-to-his-eyeballs Cobo can only just beat a clean Chris Froome, then you really, really have some bizarre perceptions of the two's talent levels. Because you would then be actually believing that a clean Chris Froome would have beaten Kohl, Evans, Sánchez, Menchov and basically everybody except Fränk Schleck on Hautacam in 2008.

woah, extremely talented Cobo. I am getting tired of the usual revisionism whenever some lesser name outperforms his reputed ability. Seriously it's like the never tested positive ****. "This guy has always been extremely talented". Yeah right, more like an all-purpose weasely excuse.

As for stretching credibility the only advantage Cobo has over Froome is that he was lucky enough not to be caught on those somewhat rare occasions where he decided to show his always there "extreme talent".

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I,m puzzled as to why Froome and/or Cobo would make it so glaringly obvious !! why dont they hang back and just get in the top 5 or 10 and then no-one would take so much notice - I,m genuinely puzzled.

Like Vino, Ricco, Rasmussen - it was just a matter of time before they were busted. So why would these 2 do the same ? (Cobo and froome)

And why would Sky let Froome continue to ride so bizarrely out of his skin ? wouldnt they tell him to calm down as its bringing unwanted attention ?

Because you get tested anyways. It's not about making an unsuspicious impression, it's about hiding what you are doing well enough. In some countries it's even about hiding well enough from the police, but in that case, you can look suspicious in races as well, because a decent officer won't need your performances to know what he's looking for.

Besides: you might still be able to make a deal with the UCI.

woah, extremely talented Cobo. I am getting tired of the usual revisionism whenever some lesser name outperforms his reputed ability..

Actually Cobo is performing exactly up to his reputed ability. I for myself have always waited for the day he'd do this. He's shown some very impressive stuff, even though only on rare occcasions. If he's naturally very talented or just a super responder doesn't make a diffrence concerning this really.

Btw., I think very strange form (good,bad,bad,good,bad,bad,bad,good) is still better explained by trainig effort rather than PEDs. Whatever you take, you've got to get into the condition to make it work first. Doping doesn't take away the need for great physical and mental shape.

 

[Escarabajo]

I,m puzzled as to why Froome and/or Cobo would make it so glaringly obvious !! why dont they hang back and just get in the top 5 or 10 and then no-one would take so much notice - I,m genuinely puzzled.

Like Vino, Ricco, Rasmussen - it was just a matter of time before they were busted. So why would these 2 do the same ? (Cobo and froome)

And why would Sky let Froome continue to ride so bizarrely out of his skin ? wouldnt they tell him to calm down as its bringing unwanted attention ?

The explanation for Cobo is very simple. He had to attack to get the leader's jersey. Otherwise he had no chance of winning by hiding.

 

[palmerq]

Reading the other thread here, reminded me of john lee augustyn, is he at sky now? He was climbing pretty well at barloworld and I haven't noticed him for a long time..

I think sky are not doping, but they are bit suspicious.

 

[roundabout]

Actually Cobo is performing exactly up to his reputed ability. I for myself have always waited for the day he'd do this. He's shown some very impressive stuff, even though only on rare occcasions. If he's naturally very talented or just a super responder doesn't make a diffrence concerning this really.

Btw., I think very strange form (good,bad,bad,good,bad,bad,bad,good) is still better explained by trainig effort rather than PEDs. Whatever you take, you've got to get into the condition to make it work first. Doping doesn't take away the need for great physical and mental shape.

Uh, the last time he rode a climb that fast was as Nibali said in 2008 when his team was on you know what. I sure hope that the joke that was that stage doesn't happen again.

 

[Mambo95]

Reading the other thread here, reminded me of john lee augustyn, is he at sky now? He was climbing pretty well at barloworld and I haven't noticed him for a long time..

He's still at Sky but he had a major hip operation.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/9...-back-to-full-strength-and-ready-to-race.aspx

 

[roundabout]

Reading the other thread here, reminded me of john lee augustyn, is he at sky now? He was climbing pretty well at barloworld and I haven't noticed him for a long time..

I think sky are not doping, but they are bit suspicious.

I think he had a hip surgery this year to fix the problems after a 2007 crash and only recently returned to racing. Sadly it seems his career is going nowhere (even if the docs say he will be better than ever) after a promising start.

 

[maltiv]

Don't forget that Froome was 8th on the MTF in Romandie this year, just 1 spot behind TDF winner Cadel Evans! So clearly, given that performance, dominance in Vuelta was to be expected (ok, not really, but goes to show that he has shown glimpses of similar form earlier).

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Uh, the last time he rode a climb that fast was as Nibali said in 2008 when his team was on you know what. I sure hope that the joke that was that stage doesn't happen again.

I fully agree.
You need the body for top performances like that. Sadly we don't even know if SD didn't just really have the greatest climbing team in that tour (there was noone around Piepoli couldn't beat on a good day, even with the old stuff), it might be that the others just didn't get caught or weren't supposed to geht caught.
My only point though was to say that this didn't come out of nothing. How long was CERA around btw.? Didn't it only came into use in 2008? He was mighty impressive sometimes in 2007 as well.
Also I find it interesting that the only guy who really faded since things seem to normalize has been Di Luca.
But this is getting really off topic.

 

[roundabout]

What the hell? Leysin is nothing like Angliru or any MTF in this Vuelta.