Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[Von Mises]

In the absence of other factors, one is more likely to be correct assuming a given pro-cyclist is dirty than assuming he's clean.
Cycling history has shown this and it can easily be presented as a regular statistical pattern, so if you claim otherwise (i.e. if you presume innocence and criticize those who don't), the burden of the proof is yours.

History is a very poor predictor. In 1990 when Bugno was leading Giro form start to finish, youd probably say: "Bugno is not using EPO, because cycling history has shown no EPO:"

 

[sniper]

History is a very poor predictor. In 1990 when Bugno was leading Giro form start to finish, youd probably say: "Bugno is not using EPO, because cycling history has shown no EPO:"

you're actually proving my point: namely that in the absence of any evidence, you're more likely to be correct presupposing that a given cyclist is dirty than presupposing he's clean.

 

[daveinzambia]

you're actually proving my point: namely that in the absence of any evidence, you're more likely to be correct presupposing that a given cyclist is dirty than presupposing he's clean.

it is very hard not too

we know that doping was endemic to cycling for many many years
we know that while current doping mechanisms may have reduced the level of doping it is still not sufficient to catch all current doping methods (riders themselves have made this clear)
as more and more of those magnificent performances from the past are revealed as being tainted then we end up in a place where it is easier to assume the worst about any rider.

I would be gutted if Froome was doping. i was arguing the other day about the way all riders are assumed to dope, then as i watched the time trial a small nagging doubt crept into the back of my head.

right or wrong i think it is going to take a fair amount of time before the current group of cycling fans that have been disappointed so often become less cynical. and also more faith that the testing in place is sufficient.

 

[Benotti69]

i have yet to see a really concerted effort from pro cycling or anyone in it to demonstrate that they are clean or their team is clean.

 

[daveinzambia]

i have yet to see a really concerted effort from pro cycling or anyone in it to demonstrate that they are clean or their team is clean.

i am not very knowledgeable on this, heard some talk during the tour about some french teams that were trying to go further to prove they were clean

could be talking complete rubbish and have no idea if it is anything more than marketing material.

think progress will have to come from the teams but not certain what that progress would be (beyond cosmetic attempts to say we are clean and trying to disassociate themselves from tainted riders)

an increase on the idea of the biological passport?

 

[Benotti69]

i am not very knowledgeable on this, heard some talk during the tour about some french teams that were trying to go further to prove they were clean

could be talking complete rubbish and have no idea if it is anything more than marketing material.

think progress will have to come from the teams but not certain what that progress would be (beyond cosmetic attempts to say we are clean and trying to disassociate themselves from tainted riders)

an increase on the idea of the biological passport?

which i have yet to see. Sky and Garmin talk about it but when it came to actions we see both teams associated with doping. Sky with Yeats, Barry and Possoni to name 3. Garmin with Chim, Zabriskie and Millar, not too mention JV himself.

 

[hrotha]

Blackcat, of course Froome had shown some potential. Virtually everyone has. But to say this is not a surprise is ridiculous. Also, I'll take any results with Barloworld with a pinch of salt.

 

[Catwhoorg]

which i have yet to see. Sky and Garmin talk about it but when it came to actions we see both teams associated with doping. Sky with Yeats, Barry and Possoni to name 3. Garmin with Chim, Zabriskie and Millar, not too mention JV himself.

Millar touched on this issue in his book. Its almost impossible to build a team without someone being associated with doping in some way.

Garmin, have the attitude of no doping here. Formers repentant dopers welcome.

Sean Yates is a toughie, he did test positive, but was he ever sanctioned ? It certainly blurs the clear line they tried to set out.

Barry, Possoni, both innocent until sanctioned, but Barry especially is a Damoclean sword hanging over the zero tolerance policy. Lets see what the Grand Jury shakes out about US postal team.


On the flip side, most of the Sky younger riders, have come up through the British Cycling system, many are Bikepure role models. They have this clean environment, and its certain that results come from the setup.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Blackcat, of course Froome had shown some potential. Virtually everyone has. But to say this is not a surprise is ridiculous. Also, I'll take any results with Barloworld with a pinch of salt.

Please could you elaborate on your thoughts about Barloworld.

I was refusing to follow cycling when they existed. But one could say that Sky were born from the ashes of Barloworld.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Another angle about Sky and doping is how intimately they are involved with British Cycling (the overall group) who have extensive national lottery funding.

Any significant whiff of a doping scandal, would bring parliament down on them like the preveberbial ton of bricks. The money well would dry up in a heartbeat.

The risks/reward ratio is skewed far more for Sky than maybe for any other proteam out there.

 

[Benotti69]

Millar touched on this issue in his book. Its almost impossible to build a team without someone being associated with doping in some way.

Garmin, have the attitude of no doping here. Formers repentant dopers welcome. .

Slipstream started out from the bottom level of cycling. JV could have found a way to get to the top of the game without people associated with doping. It might have taken longer but if he was serious it would have been worth the wait. Never heard the phrase 'repentant dopers welcome' from JV!

Sean Yates is a toughie, he did test positive, but was he ever sanctioned ? It certainly blurs the clear line they tried to set out.

Aint nothing tough about Yates's past, Yates rode for Amrstrong/Bruyneel. If that is not a blot on ones copybook then lets forget about doping.

Barry, Possoni, both innocent until sanctioned, but Barry especially is a Damoclean sword hanging over the zero tolerance policy. Lets see what the Grand Jury shakes out about US postal team.

Possoni is part of an investigation is he not? Michael barry's 4 years at USPostal and T-Mobile smell.

On the flip side, most of the Sky younger riders, have come up through the British Cycling system, many are Bikepure role models. They have this clean environment, and its certain that results come from the setup.

What clean environment is that. The one where they wouldn't grant full access to Kimmage at the TdF?

Brailsford ran a mile from Dave Millar when he got caught. I have yet to see a reason to explain TeamGB's success in track, some miracle no doubt.

 

[Benotti69]

Please could you elaborate on your thoughts about Barloworld.

I was refusing to follow cycling when they existed. But one could say that Sky were born from the ashes of Barloworld.

Alberto Volpi was a client of the 'doping doctor' Professor Francesco Conconi.
He formerly worked as a directeur sportif at Barloworld cycling team.

 

[mb2612]

As a South African I refuse to believe that Barloworld is totally tainted. Every half decent South African Rider has gone through the Barloworld system and the one South African who tested positive immediately confessed and was given a 3 year ban.

I'm not saying they are all clean, but I doubt they are all dopers.

 

[hrotha]

As a South African I refuse to believe

All sorts of problems with this.

By the way, do the names Pfannberger and Dueñas ring any bells?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Slipstream started out from the bottom level of cycling. JV could have found a way to get to the top of the game without people associated with doping. It might have taken longer but if he was serious it would have been worth the wait. Never heard the phrase 'repentant dopers welcome' from JV!

Thats pretty much how Millar explains the position with JV right from the outset of his joining. You can't chnage the past, only the now and the future. To best chnage cycling to a cleaner sport, you have to accept some historical assosciation with doping, but you can have zero tolerance going forward.

Its also used to contrast the (stated) position of Sky, which I do admit has some holes in it on close examination. But Millar to Sky if they didn't have their (stated) zero tolerance would have been a shoe-in. Heck his sister works in the team organisation.

Brailsford ran a mile from Dave Millar when he got caught. I have yet to see a reason to explain TeamGB's success in track, some miracle no doubt.

Quite the opposite. DB went out on a personal limb for Millar. Giving him access to BC's training facilities and testing, that many in BC (the organisation) opposed. A few years ago I had a pretty much 'ban em for life' for a first offence attitude to any doping, in any sport. Had DM gone to sky I would have been hard pressed to believe in that team.

As I have grown more in understanding of doping, the science of it, the flaws in that science, and most importantly the flaws in people. Should a student athelete, who trains hard, but due to a lack of understanding of certain ingredients in a supplement, ends up with a positive be banned for life ? (Rachel Wallader is whom I'm thinking of - reduce ban of 1 year for MHA). These guys and gals don't have 24/7 medical suport.

Should Toure (footballer) be banned for life for taking one of his wifes 'water pills' ?

Heck there was a judo fighter whooverused his inhaler recently, and was sanctioned, though with a loss ofplacing at the event and a formal warning.

You do know who Millar was eating with the night of his arrest and who picked him up from the police station I assume ?

As for Team GB sucess on the track, some good talents, trained to perfection by scientific methods and many many small incremental gains. Good use of the lottery money setting up the system, then developing the talents that rise.

Once the Aussies especially (but others too) took onboard similar concepts, look how fast they have caught up.

 

[mb2612]

All sorts of problems with this.

By the way, do the names Pfannberger and Dueñas ring any bells?

Stating my national bias upfront is better than keeping it a secret.

I know the names, I also can name plenty of arbitrary links between Barloworld and doping. Hunter riding for Radioshack and Phonak, Cox's untimely death, Astarloa used to ride for them, Thomas who as I mentioned up thread scored very high on the UCI list.

It doesn't make South African cycling totally tainted, I can argue the other way due to the fact that they have seriously struggled to compete on the professional level, despite a very strong amateur scene.

 

[hrotha]

Ah, ok, I didn't think you meant that bit I quoted to be 100% literal. Fair enough then.

 

[L'arriviste]

Please could you elaborate on your thoughts about Barloworld.

I was refusing to follow cycling when they existed. But one could say that Sky were born from the ashes of Barloworld.

Alberto Volpi was a client of the 'doping doctor' Professor Francesco Conconi.
He formerly worked as a directeur sportif at Barloworld cycling team.

As a South African I refuse to believe that Barloworld is totally tainted. Every half decent South African Rider has gone through the Barloworld system and the one South African who tested positive immediately confessed and was given a 3 year ban.

I'm not saying they are all clean, but I doubt they are all dopers.

All sorts of problems with this.

By the way, do the names Pfannberger and Dueñas ring any bells?

The following are events from whole career paths, not necessarily events isolated to Barloworld:

CORTI, Claudio (Manager)
DS/Manager of Gatorade, Polti (teams strongly linked to Conconi and Ferrari)

GROS, Michel (DS)
admitted to knowledge of systematic EPO use at TVM

ELLI, Alberto (DS)
corticosteroids, HGH, insulin - as rider

VOLPI, Alberto (DS)
HcG positive, Conconi client - as rider
DS at several "troubled" teams

MIOZZO, Flavio (DS)
Skipped Giro dope test - as rider

MISSAGLIA, Gabriele (rider)
intravenous colloids, testosterone

MOLETTA, Andrea (rider)
Set aside from investigation of his Dad's fridge full of Viagra

ASTARLOA, Igor (rider)
Bio-passport

CARRARA, Matteo (rider)
Caffeine

CAVALLARI, Stefano (rider)
EPO

SERRI, Eddy (rider)
Giro blitz list

DUENAS, Moises (rider)
EPO

PFANNBERGER, Christian (rider)
EPO, testosterone

What this shows, if anything, is that it has very little to do with South African cycling.

 

[roundabout]

re Pfannberger let's just say Barloworld were quite lucky that he didn't test positive while riding for them given his fondness for needles

but that's their hiring policy in a nutshell not to mention the management policy which at least from the outside seemed to amount to giving everybody the freedom to 'prepare' how they like

 

[Benotti69]

Thats pretty much how Millar explains the position with JV right from the outset of his joining. You can't chnage the past, only the now and the future. To best chnage cycling to a cleaner sport, you have to accept some historical assosciation with doping, but you can have zero tolerance going forward.

Its also used to contrast the (stated) position of Sky, which I do admit has some holes in it on close examination. But Millar to Sky if they didn't have their (stated) zero tolerance would have been a shoe-in. Heck his sister works in the team organisation.

I dont give any creedence to that and JV's statements about Garmin's cleanliness.

Quite the opposite. DB went out on a personal limb for Millar. Giving him access to BC's training facilities and testing, that many in BC (the organisation) opposed. A few years ago I had a pretty much 'ban em for life' for a first offence attitude to any doping, in any sport. Had DM gone to sky I would have been hard pressed to believe in that team.

If you read Paul Kimmage's interview with Brailsford he cannot give a straight answer to why he lied when asked about Millar being arrested for doping.

As I have grown more in understanding of doping, the science of it, the flaws in that science, and most importantly the flaws in people. Should a student athelete, who trains hard, but due to a lack of understanding of certain ingredients in a supplement, ends up with a positive be banned for life ? (Rachel Wallader is whom I'm thinking of - reduce ban of 1 year for MHA). These guys and gals don't have 24/7 medical suport.

Should Toure (footballer) be banned for life for taking one of his wifes 'water pills' ?

Yeah he took her pills! that's a joke. like the sweets from Columbia being full of cocaine. Rio Ferdinand forgot about his doping test???

All lame excuses for those who were doping.

Heck there was a judo fighter whooverused his inhaler recently, and was sanctioned, though with a loss ofplacing at the event and a formal warning.

the inhalers are very popular with athletes in so many sports. Have yet to read about sport making people into asthmatics. More doping and doping excuses.

You do know who Millar was eating with the night of his arrest and who picked him up from the police station I assume ?

Brailsford because he also got arrested and interrogated.

As for Team GB sucess on the track, some good talents, trained to perfection by scientific methods and many many small incremental gains. Good use of the lottery money setting up the system, then developing the talents that rise.

Once the Aussies especially (but others too) took onboard similar concepts, look how fast they have caught up.

i doubt the Aussies are any cleaner than TeamGB

 

[mb2612]

The following are events from whole career paths, not necessarily events isolated to Barloworld:

[snip]

What this shows, if anything, is that it has very little to do with South African cycling.

This is essentially my annoyance with the tainted Barloworld brush. The suspicious people are all European, yet any South African who has come through Europe is tainted because it was the only way to get to the big time.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

which i have yet to see. Sky and Garmin talk about it but when it came to actions we see both teams associated with doping. Sky with Yeats, Barry and Possoni to name 3. Garmin with Chim, Zabriskie and Millar, not too mention JV himself.

As 'Catwhoorg' has pointed out many of your points on JV, Garmin & Sky are incorrect.

By all means have your suspicions - but for me there is a clear difference between Sky & Garmin and how they have set up both teams.

There is simply no way of avoiding a doping connection within any team - Garmin acknowledged this, while Sky tried to do it as a PR move.

 

[Anonymous]

which i have yet to see. Sky and Garmin talk about it but when it came to actions we see both teams associated with doping. Sky with Yeats, Barry and Possoni to name 3. Garmin with Chim, Zabriskie and Millar, not too mention JV himself.

Possoni going to Astana, ive heard inclings that Barry might go, and the left field idea that Yates might go to Shakotard-Trek

 

[Benotti69]

As 'Catwhoorg' has pointed out many of your points on JV, Garmin & Sky are incorrect.

By all means have your suspicions - but for me there is a clear difference between Sky & Garmin and how they have set up both teams.

There is simply no way of avoiding a doping connection within any team - Garmin acknowledged this, while Sky tried to do it as a PR move.

As i said, if both took their time to build teams at a slower rate instead of a race to the top then i am sure it could have been done without the dirt, but both teams are only interested in the PR side of cleanliness not the reality of it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As i said, if both took their time to build teams at a slower rate instead of a race to the top then i am sure it could have been done without the dirt,

How?
What does the pace of getting involved in the sport have to do with ending up with people that could be connected to doping?

If you run a Pro team it is impossible to avoid.

but both teams are only interested in the PR side of cleanliness not the reality of it.

Lets get this straight, once and for all.

Are you saying both teams are running an organised doping system?