I bet there are a number of executive and sales people at various bike manufactures getting throughly miffed at the comments of riders like Cancellara, Van Avermaet, Nibali and others. These companies have invested heavily in trying to persuade us we need to lay out lots of money on new bikes with disc brakes and those pesky pro cyclists are messing things up. The clever wheeze on the part of the manufacturers was to create an innovation that requires a whole new bike (rather than just transmission parts or the like), deliberately providing no backwards compatibility so that you can't mix and match with your current stable of bikes. If you go over to disc brakes that means a new race bike, new winter hack etc. In the light of such an obviously cynical move it is rather gratifying to hear pro riders are far from convinced by them.
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Slipped disc
- Thread starter Wattie
- Start date
You forgot to mention Sean Kelly who preferred to use down tube shifters and toe straps. 
BTW, Cancellera also refuses to use electronic shifting.
BTW, Cancellera also refuses to use electronic shifting.
Cancellara DNF'd Flanders in 2009, his first year on SRAM thanks to a broken chain and derailleur. He also saw his teammate lose the 2010 Tour thanks to a SRAM front derailleur. He's only racing for one more season, so why risk one last shot at the big races by taking on new tech that everyone hasn't used yet?
Yes, Sean Kelly was a hold out... and today we chuckle about it. Cancellara will be a nostalgic footnote himself in a few yearsbiker jk said:You forgot to mention Sean Kelly who preferred to use down tube shifters and toe straps.
What's interesting about the rider dissension to me is that these guys are usually quite adept at towing the company line.Wattie said:
"This new xxxx frame is the fastest bike I've ever descended on."
"These new xxxx shoes allow for the best power transfer I've ever experienced."
"Thanks to the new xxxx saddle, I was able to stay more relaxed on the climb, and finish stronger than ever."
The Garmin chumps were typically the most coached of them all when it came to corporate-speak.
But the disc issue is different. It does appear that the media is stoking those flames a bit by deliberately provoking a reaction from the riders. All it really takes is the green light from someone of Cancellara's stature, and the rest will be even more comfortable speaking their minds.
I don't really buy into the safety issues, as they pertain to the specific concerns over direct contact with a disc during a crash. I mean, is there really anything more menacing than the chain-rings they already have to contend with? I'm fairly surprised, actually, that we don't see more puncture wounds from those sharp, nasty, multi-spiked, unsanitary, ninja weapons. I've seen it happen at 'cross races, and almost always from one's own bike, but it's not as common a hazard as one could imagine. So I don't think the fear of such from discs, especially on the road, is warranted. Of course, if it does ever happen, we'll never hear the end of it.
It won't be because of the 60kph sprint finish, or the shattered bits of carbon fiber, or the velvety smooth and pillowy soft road surface. No, it will be those insidious discs to blame for the injuries.
Cut? Yeah, well nothing dangerous out there already.
Burnt? Really? Are they anticipating prolonged contact with glowing-hot speed reducers?
Not to mention, most crashes, particularly pile-ups, are preceded by very little braking to begin with, so how much heat is likely to be stored in those discs in the immediate aftermath anyway?
Jacques de Molay said:What's interesting about the rider dissension to me is that these guys are usually quite adept at towing the company line.Wattie said:
"This new xxxx frame is the fastest bike I've ever descended on."
"These new xxxx shoes allow for the best power transfer I've ever experienced."
"Thanks to the new xxxx saddle, I was able to stay more relaxed on the climb, and finish stronger than ever."
The Garmin chumps were typically the most coached of them all when it came to corporate-speak.
But the disc issue is different. It does appear that the media is stoking those flames a bit by deliberately provoking a reaction from the riders. All it really takes is the green light from someone of Cancellara's stature, and the rest will be even more comfortable speaking their minds.
I don't really buy into the safety issues, as they pertain to the specific concerns over direct contact with a disc during a crash. I mean, is there really anything more menacing than the chain-rings they already have to contend with? I'm fairly surprised, actually, that we don't see more puncture wounds from those sharp, nasty, multi-spiked, unsanitary, ninja weapons. I've seen it happen at 'cross races, and almost always from one's own bike, but it's not as common a hazard as one could imagine. So I don't think the fear of such from discs, especially on the road, is warranted. Of course, if it does ever happen, we'll never hear the end of it.
It won't be because of the 60kph sprint finish, or the shattered bits of carbon fiber, or the velvety smooth and pillowy soft road surface. No, it will be those insidious discs to blame for the injuries.
Cut? Yeah, well nothing dangerous out there already.
Burnt? Really? Are they anticipating prolonged contact with glowing-hot speed reducers?
Not to mention, most crashes, particularly pile-ups, are preceded by very little braking to begin with, so how much heat is likely to be stored in those discs in the immediate aftermath anyway?
Great post! The level of pure "silly" being invoked in the name of maintaining the status quo regarding braking in road cycling is getting ridiculous. Particularly since those posing the most vociferous objections, were likely some of the earliest adopters of previous leaps in technology, from clipless pedals, to brake lever shifters, to sub 1200gr carbon wheelsets... Where was the outrage over safety issues then? To be fair, there were some at the time, but no one can remember them now. It will be the same looking back on road disc brakes in a very short time.
I find particularly amusing the corporate plotting scenario by component manufacturers that is being put forth by people who have no clue how a product development cycle works. If you make your equipment decisions based exclusively on what the Pros use you're an idiot. If you make an informed decision to forego discs on your next road bike purchase because you have issues with maintaining compatibility within your stable of bikes, you are not. If you have an aesthetic objection, you are not. But a compelling argument against their improved performance and safety cannot be made. It literally does not exist.
I assure you that while Shimano would prefer to have a Pro rider of Cancellara's notoriety using disc brakes, they are not going to risk political fall out by drawing attention to the issue. He will be among a small minority of Pros who harbor some trepidation. It's is the personal choice of a Pro who has enough standing to do what he wants. The lesser riders on any Shimano sponsored team, lacking that kind of political capital, will not resist, or probably care. They can see what is coming, and it's a pretty safe bet that the next endorsement check being cut for a Pro rider featured in the Shimano add, won't be to Fabian Cancellara.
The UCI has accelerated the introduction of disc road brakes by continuing to remove hurdles, and component manufacturers are moving ahead with a plan to introduce better technology, as they always have. They will compete with each other tooth and nail while they do. Your choice to partake in the next chapter of the bicycle component arms race is completely yours... Down tube shifters are still available from Shimano and Campagnolo... unfortunately down tube shifter bosses on a new frame are getting damned hard to find.
I find particularly amusing the corporate plotting scenario by component manufacturers that is being put forth by people who have no clue how a product development cycle works. If you make your equipment decisions based exclusively on what the Pros use you're an idiot. If you make an informed decision to forego discs on your next road bike purchase because you have issues with maintaining compatibility within your stable of bikes, you are not. If you have an aesthetic objection, you are not. But a compelling argument against their improved performance and safety cannot be made. It literally does not exist.
I assure you that while Shimano would prefer to have a Pro rider of Cancellara's notoriety using disc brakes, they are not going to risk political fall out by drawing attention to the issue. He will be among a small minority of Pros who harbor some trepidation. It's is the personal choice of a Pro who has enough standing to do what he wants. The lesser riders on any Shimano sponsored team, lacking that kind of political capital, will not resist, or probably care. They can see what is coming, and it's a pretty safe bet that the next endorsement check being cut for a Pro rider featured in the Shimano add, won't be to Fabian Cancellara.
The UCI has accelerated the introduction of disc road brakes by continuing to remove hurdles, and component manufacturers are moving ahead with a plan to introduce better technology, as they always have. They will compete with each other tooth and nail while they do. Your choice to partake in the next chapter of the bicycle component arms race is completely yours... Down tube shifters are still available from Shimano and Campagnolo... unfortunately down tube shifter bosses on a new frame are getting damned hard to find.
Re:
I think you are slightly missing the point about accusations of corporate plotting. It is not arguing that planning is based on what the pros use (as you say), it is arguing from the idea that product development is designed to generate sales and not necessarily to make bikes better (though obviously in many cases the two might go hand in hand). Now in producing a new system of brakes that requires a person to buy a new frame, new wheels etc to use them, the product developers have done a brilliant job - an adopter of disc brakes will have to invest more heavily than any previous component innovation (clipless pedals, STi shifters etc as cited above) They also know that a lot of bike sales are driven by consumers seeing what the pros are riding and wanting something similar (you may chose to consider that shallow behaviour on the part of the consumer, but it nevertheless the case). So the corporate suits know that getting endorsement from the pro peloton will help sales. Hence the surprise that many pros are vocal about not being convinced by disc brakes. Having followed the sport for more than 25 years I cannot recall other innovations being openly criticised by pro riders; yes some like Kelly didn't adopt them, but open criticism is a different thing. As someone else has said on this thread, pro riders are usually very good at being on message for their sponsors and I suspect some of the sponsors are less than happy when riders deviate from the party line (wasn't someone recently in trouble for criticising the colnago bikes his team rode on?). As to the suggestion that it is just crusty old riders nearing retirement; how do you account for Alex Dowsett who is only 27?
As to the technical superiority of disc brakes I cannot comment because I have not tried them and cannot even consider the level of investment required at the moment to make the change; I could adopt ergo power levers early on because they did not require me to replace entire bikes and spare wheels etc. Rembember when the cd came in? It was a music industry dream scenario because it required new hardware and the consumer had to buy all their old recordings again in the new format - was it technically superior to vinyl? Yes. Is that why the industry loved it? No.
I concur with you that some of the safety concerns seem bit far fetched - at least those regarding the dangers of the discs themselves. But i do recall products being banned from the pro peloton on safety grounds: Spinergy four spoke wheels, and their like, had a brief run in massed start events (I think Gianetti won Amstel Gold on them), but were banned because they were seen effectively as rotating blades.
VeloFidelis said:
I think you are slightly missing the point about accusations of corporate plotting. It is not arguing that planning is based on what the pros use (as you say), it is arguing from the idea that product development is designed to generate sales and not necessarily to make bikes better (though obviously in many cases the two might go hand in hand). Now in producing a new system of brakes that requires a person to buy a new frame, new wheels etc to use them, the product developers have done a brilliant job - an adopter of disc brakes will have to invest more heavily than any previous component innovation (clipless pedals, STi shifters etc as cited above) They also know that a lot of bike sales are driven by consumers seeing what the pros are riding and wanting something similar (you may chose to consider that shallow behaviour on the part of the consumer, but it nevertheless the case). So the corporate suits know that getting endorsement from the pro peloton will help sales. Hence the surprise that many pros are vocal about not being convinced by disc brakes. Having followed the sport for more than 25 years I cannot recall other innovations being openly criticised by pro riders; yes some like Kelly didn't adopt them, but open criticism is a different thing. As someone else has said on this thread, pro riders are usually very good at being on message for their sponsors and I suspect some of the sponsors are less than happy when riders deviate from the party line (wasn't someone recently in trouble for criticising the colnago bikes his team rode on?). As to the suggestion that it is just crusty old riders nearing retirement; how do you account for Alex Dowsett who is only 27?
As to the technical superiority of disc brakes I cannot comment because I have not tried them and cannot even consider the level of investment required at the moment to make the change; I could adopt ergo power levers early on because they did not require me to replace entire bikes and spare wheels etc. Rembember when the cd came in? It was a music industry dream scenario because it required new hardware and the consumer had to buy all their old recordings again in the new format - was it technically superior to vinyl? Yes. Is that why the industry loved it? No.
I concur with you that some of the safety concerns seem bit far fetched - at least those regarding the dangers of the discs themselves. But i do recall products being banned from the pro peloton on safety grounds: Spinergy four spoke wheels, and their like, had a brief run in massed start events (I think Gianetti won Amstel Gold on them), but were banned because they were seen effectively as rotating blades.
biker jk said:You forgot to mention Sean Kelly who preferred to use down tube shifters and toe straps.
Once again, this will degrade into a discussion of how disc brakes are an answer to a not asked question. I know the gents at Campagnolo, NA and they are in discussions constantly with genuine pro racers(not cat 4 posseurs) to find areas that can be improved. Never does 'brakes, they are crappy, we need something new'..come up. And yes, yes, these guys(like FC) have tried them and give the big shrug..They do see how much they weigh, what failures there are, the silliness of non-standard anything and how the guys that do good TTs, will not use them. ..and they say-not needed.
Why oh why do the majority of PRO EURO cross racers still use canti brakes? I thought they were the best in wet, sloppy races, like, ya know, cyclocross. BUT the marketeers want you to think you CANNOT do that sunday, dry, mostly flat ride w/o
-Electronic shifting
-hydro disc brakes
-tapered forks
-carbon wheels
can't be done...
Re:
ahh, no, not since shimano went to 11s and not since Campagnolo went 10s.
Plus and minus'. They have not been brought down from the mountain top. There are real issues with them. I think the safety gig is overstated but weight, cost, complication, NON standard everything is an issue. Not the least of which is disc brakes require a whole new bike, frame and fork. If the UCI mandated standards are 142/12 TA rear and now, 12mm TA front(NOT 15, like most all fork makers right now), direct mount and 160mm rotor.
But even that has changed twice in the last few weeks(140-160mm rotor and 12mm TA front from 15mm).
Ya know if ya gotta have disc brakes on yer rig, fine and dandy but those who think they are not necessary to just plain dum..they can use what they want and are not wrong.
VeloFidelis said:
ahh, no, not since shimano went to 11s and not since Campagnolo went 10s.
Plus and minus'. They have not been brought down from the mountain top. There are real issues with them. I think the safety gig is overstated but weight, cost, complication, NON standard everything is an issue. Not the least of which is disc brakes require a whole new bike, frame and fork. If the UCI mandated standards are 142/12 TA rear and now, 12mm TA front(NOT 15, like most all fork makers right now), direct mount and 160mm rotor.
But even that has changed twice in the last few weeks(140-160mm rotor and 12mm TA front from 15mm).
Ya know if ya gotta have disc brakes on yer rig, fine and dandy but those who think they are not necessary to just plain dum..they can use what they want and are not wrong.
Re: Re:
Opps dupe but so what..discs, what a charade..kinda like ceramic bearings..
Bustedknuckle said:
Opps dupe but so what..discs, what a charade..kinda like ceramic bearings..
Not seen any pro bikes lined up for Tour down Under with disks.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tour-down-under-tech-what-can-we-expect/
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tour-down-under-tech-what-can-we-expect/
I think that one only needs to look at the growing success and popularity of L'Eroica and similar events to discount that a majority of cycling fans want the latest equipment.
One area not mentioned in the disc brake discussion is fork design. One company (possibly Giant) has started making round section road forks because the one blade take the torque and much of the bending stresses during braking.
Re:
Unfortunately, I did not make October in Italy this year...
viewtopic.php?p=1689473#p1689473
But, your grasp of the influence of "race" impact in actual global bike sales is off the mark.
viewtopic.php?p=1695527#p1695527
Benotti69 said:
Unfortunately, I did not make October in Italy this year...
viewtopic.php?p=1689473#p1689473
But, your grasp of the influence of "race" impact in actual global bike sales is off the mark.
viewtopic.php?p=1695527#p1695527
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/12/news/dimension-data-testing-new-drivetrain-disc-brakes_391735
Last time Cavendish rode a hydro braked bike, the next day he refused to ride it again. I'm 'sure' he will be pleased with this one when he 'tries' to win the next sprint..gonna be amusing to see him 'bike toss' this pile.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/12/news/dimension-data-testing-new-drivetrain-disc-brakes_391735
Last time Cavendish rode a hydro braked bike, the next day he refused to ride it again. I'm 'sure' he will be pleased with this one when he 'tries' to win the next sprint..gonna be amusing to see him 'bike toss' this pile.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/12/news/dimension-data-testing-new-drivetrain-disc-brakes_391735
VeloFidelis said:
Doubt his team will try to push against the 'big boys' at spam. They have a hard enough time getting real sponsorship $ and spam, only sponsoring 3 teams(what-$500 million company and 3 pro road teams? Campag does many more) will 'insist' they use their new stuff, so they can sell it and let the public find out how bad their junque is.
MMmmm... yeah, back in the day they called that... umm... oh yeah... business. That's the ticket!
Re:
It would be nice if in spam's 'business' model, they would actually design stuff that worked. Ya know, sponsor a team and not have the team then dump them and BUY groups because spam's stuff broke so often..like BMC and Garmin did. Cav did refuse to use the bike with hydro calipers(that's brilliant-not), we'll see how much moxie he has in 2016..I'm thinking the sunset is right around the corner for Cav.
VeloFidelis said:
It would be nice if in spam's 'business' model, they would actually design stuff that worked. Ya know, sponsor a team and not have the team then dump them and BUY groups because spam's stuff broke so often..like BMC and Garmin did. Cav did refuse to use the bike with hydro calipers(that's brilliant-not), we'll see how much moxie he has in 2016..I'm thinking the sunset is right around the corner for Cav.
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