So what is it about Lance?

[flicker]

Several RR's in Arizona, and California, one for sure is Long Beach Grand Prix in the early 90's.

I used to be a sports trainer and coach, I have more expertise from studying various issues with my wife's and my own cancer. She has a deeper background than I working in the medical field. We work on many things together in regards to base of knowledge, and trying to understand what lay in our own futures.

I hear you my wife is an OR nurse. Great to know a fellow Co- Dependent Husband. My wife has a different read on Lance and as I have expre
ienced a lot of death around drug issues I frequent this site.
Around cancer as a person with native American descent I have my own read around and about death, and reasons for some to survive. I may be an as_ on this site but those things I hold sacred.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Attitude, lazerlike focus, extremely handsome, cancercuring. An unbeatable combo, what is not to like? (Like one of my other heroes Clint Eastwood, Lance is extremely handsome and masculine. I like that in a man!)

If I were a homosexual, I'd have a crush on him.

But I'm not, so I think his tooches leaks buttermilk.

It's not Lance, it is the idiot groupies who parrot his every press release as if it was the divine word.

Not, it's his messianic posturing. The idiot groupies are just a pathetic reflection of the same.

I met him a number of times in the pre-cancerous days. He already was an arrogant sphincter way back then. The only differences now are the private jets and illegitimate children.

 

[TubularBills]

If I were a homosexual, I'd have a crush on him.

But I'm not, so I think his tooches leaks buttermilk.


Not, it's his messianic posturing. The idiot groupies are just a pathetic reflection of the same.

I met him a number of times in the pre-cancerous days. He already was an arrogant sphincter way back then. The only differences now are the private jets and illegitimate children.

hey don't blame that on him, the Doctors verified that he never tested positive for viable sperm post cancer.

Oops, of course that could mean... they're not his?

 

[AussieGoddess]

Welcome to disillusionment. If you really want to find out just how sick of a business it all was, read Walsh and Kimmage's books. You'll turn into a complete militant radical after that.

have read Lance to Landis .

Please provide links if you can. I would be very interested to read it.

I heard the rumours but I never thought He would really do something like that. He is of course very powerfull but how can he get away with it?

There is a few threads on here with some great links (and a lot of biased people too so wade through that).

I was onside with regards to the ideas and work the foundation does. I have cancer and have seen firsthand some of the good work they do. And they do actually do a lot of good. The problem is that they spend a LOT to do that small amount. And a lot of what they spend goes to Lance or to promoting him for his personal finacial benefit.

Various charity rating / analysing groups ALL rate LAF/Livestrong poorly as overspending on fundraising, administration and promotion (which effectively is the costs of hiring and promoting Lance, entertainment etc). I can overlook that too ....

But the Livestrong.com v Livestrong.org stuff during his comeback is the straw that broke the camels back. He has so widely shouted that his comeback was all for raising money for cancer, promoting Livestrong etc. Which is great - he has done this. Nobody begrudges him making appearance fees etc as well, after all it is his right to earn money from his work ..... but the Lance Armstrong Foundation (LAF) created the Livestrong brand. It then licenced this brand to Demand Media for them to create a web based for-profit business in health promotion (diet, excercise, healthy living etc). Lance says it fits with 'cancer prevention' so is a good mix .... and would be if the LAF got all the profits. If they werent going to get the kions share of the profits, they could have set it up themselves ... it is riding on their brand name after all. But they dont - they got a small shareholding in Demand Media and no income stream. Lance Armstrong personally also got equity in Demand Media as part of the deal. WHY?????? Livestrong licenced a 3rd party to use its brand .... why should Lance get paid for that?

During the 09 + 10 TdF (which Livestrong.org - the charity paid significant promotional costs for) Lance tweeted and video-shared substantial amounts .... directing traffic to the Livestrong.com site. Advertising income from that traffic is substantial ..... and all goes to the for-profit business. He could (and should if his motives truly were to promote cancer) have directed that traffic to the .org charity site giving them the advertising income stream.

At best it is misleading and deceptive. If not outright fraud

Most independant charity reviewers have suggested it is an incredibly bad reflection on the charity that the financials of the charity and those of LA are so closely intertwined.

When we donate to a charity - we expect the money will actually go towards the cause .... not go to an individual.

 

[PotentialPro]

PP,

I enjoyed your post in particular. I myself have often wondered about #6, and it appears that from your own experience that you have some doubts; I always have. Could you elaborate a bit more for those like minded here that share your opinion?

I personally have had Thyroid cancer. It has a cure rate in the high 90% area like testicular cancer. Only radioactive iodine is functional against thyroid cancer, and surgery. One of the reasons they dont say you are truly cured with thyroid cancer is that there is no way to fully remove all thyroid material from the body, the hope is that radioactive iodine, and thyroid hormones keep remaining bad cells at bay for the rest of your life.
Testicular cancer involves removal, radiation and chemotherapy. Cure rate here is just below 95%, and through some research I have found that less than 60% of men return to standard functionality, but nothing shows high level sporting endeavors. I have no problem with that aspect, there does need to be a first for everything, I hope to become elite level again after Thyroid cancer, very few athletes have achieved much after Thyroid let alone other cancers.
On Brain Cancer, cure rate for 5 years is in the mid 30% range, and then drops further beyond 5 years. If thyroid cancer is left untreated, it can manifest into Brain cancer, which is one of my own fears. In LA case, if many recall there were pictures of shaved head, scars, and stitches. A large majority of those just doing basic brain surgery, they have many issues, let alone recovery from that type of surgery. Motor issues, psychological problems, memory loss, and a wide variety of issues, cancer withstanding. Removal of tumors, or legions in regards to brain cancer does affect the brain itself. Like removal of any growth from within the body, its not possible to remove just the growth, surrounding materials are removed as well to some extent. In some cases its a focus as its not known how deep surrounding tissues around a tumor or legion are affected. So add in to this equation, both radiation and chemotherapy. Those are both in normal courses of treatments. Radiation in itself will affect psychological aspects. Chemo in this therapy is known to cause anemia, severe blood issues, white cell depletion, amongst many things. Its not like 1 month post treatment you are back to normal.

Not all chemo and radiation is the same, but there are many aspects that are very similar. My wife went through similar treatments for several carcinomas (not the skin cancer type, but internal tumors). She didnt lose hair like many do. Chemo was the big problem. I dont see how that doesnt mess you up for atleast a year. Think about rehabilitation after a brain injury from a crash. Just trying to contemplate many of these similarities leaves me believing that Brain cancer was more of a scare, testicular cancer happened and was treated successfully. I further put 2 +2 together and in my opinion, which means little, look at how perfect treatment was for LA. Surgery was perfect, chemo and radiation was perfect, 100% cure rate first time around, no side affects, no balance problems, no exercise scares. That for me is hard to believe in my own case, a fairly simple surgery, they closed me up for a week, and then went in 7 days later for further surgery, dissection and removal of further material. While it might be possible to get everything the first time around, few are that lucky. Lastly, brain cancer, with the cure rate below 50% is not something you mess with and try to win 7 Tour's after. You worry constantly whether you are going to relapse.

A few years ago my wife and I debated the possibility of doping after something like this. Your blood scores are so out of tolerance, we were curious if anyone could detect doping, epo or anything after the fact. Now epo can be detected by the molecules that arent natural, but prior it was more ratios and other factors. Heavy chemo messes up the red cell production, bone marrow and other factors. What a perfect excuse to test these drugs, on a cancer patient. The discussion goes much deeper, but that would be pages and pages of text.

 

[PotentialPro]

hey don't blame that on him, the Doctors verified that he never tested positive for viable sperm post cancer.

Oops, of course that could mean... they're not his?

Can you elaborate on this? Is there some info out there showing fertility issues? I find this interesting as he and Kristen had issues conceiving originally. Now he is popping kids out naturally with his GF, no help at all.

 

[Berzin]

When I play Dr Phil, a lot of his behaviour seems to be fed from his mother. The win at all costs, if they're not with they're against you etc. It seems to me when he got cancer and then recovered it was sort of like the last straw to hold back his inhibitions since he really felt that the world was out to get him.

This is an interesting point. One of the first things that came out of his cancer diagnosis was the story of his team (was it Cofidis?) and the manner in which they handled his illness-it was said they basically went at him while he was in mid-treatment and cut him off completely. No salary, no medical insurance, no place on the team.

And it was not just how they did it, but when they chose to do it.

Someone who knows the details could fill us in for those like me who don't remember.

As for his mother, Lance basically lead a life that would land most on Jerry Springer. The only things missing from his trailer park upbringing were the 4 wheels and the fact that he had indoor plumbing.

 

[flatclimb]

I think in his contract there was something to do with him having to pass a physical. He couldn't have passed it in his condition so he was let go.

 

[flicker]

Can you elaborate on this? Is there some info out there showing fertility issues? I find this interesting as he and Kristen had issues conceiving originally. Now he is popping kids out naturally with his GF, no help at all.

just my opinion there is hope as long as there is life. Life is a mystery.

If you look at UMA Thurman in the producers,Pulp Fiction or for Lance ;Baby Mama II like TOMMY miracles happen.

That is how we refer to 1999-2005. Never question---Lance!!

 

[sartain]

I personally have had Thyroid cancer. It has a cure rate in the high 90% area like testicular cancer. Only radioactive iodine is functional against thyroid cancer, and surgery. One of the reasons they dont say you are truly cured with thyroid cancer is that there is no way to fully remove all thyroid material from the body, the hope is that radioactive iodine, and thyroid hormones keep remaining bad cells at bay for the rest of your life.
Testicular cancer involves removal, radiation and chemotherapy. Cure rate here is just below 95%, and through some research I have found that less than 60% of men return to standard functionality, but nothing shows high level sporting endeavors. I have no problem with that aspect, there does need to be a first for everything, I hope to become elite level again after Thyroid cancer, very few athletes have achieved much after Thyroid let alone other cancers.
On Brain Cancer, cure rate for 5 years is in the mid 30% range, and then drops further beyond 5 years. If thyroid cancer is left untreated, it can manifest into Brain cancer, which is one of my own fears. In LA case, if many recall there were pictures of shaved head, scars, and stitches. A large majority of those just doing basic brain surgery, they have many issues, let alone recovery from that type of surgery. Motor issues, psychological problems, memory loss, and a wide variety of issues, cancer withstanding. Removal of tumors, or legions in regards to brain cancer does affect the brain itself. Like removal of any growth from within the body, its not possible to remove just the growth, surrounding materials are removed as well to some extent. In some cases its a focus as its not known how deep surrounding tissues around a tumor or legion are affected. So add in to this equation, both radiation and chemotherapy. Those are both in normal courses of treatments. Radiation in itself will affect psychological aspects. Chemo in this therapy is known to cause anemia, severe blood issues, white cell depletion, amongst many things. Its not like 1 month post treatment you are back to normal.

Not all chemo and radiation is the same, but there are many aspects that are very similar. My wife went through similar treatments for several carcinomas (not the skin cancer type, but internal tumors). She didnt lose hair like many do. Chemo was the big problem. I dont see how that doesnt mess you up for atleast a year. Think about rehabilitation after a brain injury from a crash. Just trying to contemplate many of these similarities leaves me believing that Brain cancer was more of a scare, testicular cancer happened and was treated successfully. I further put 2 +2 together and in my opinion, which means little, look at how perfect treatment was for LA. Surgery was perfect, chemo and radiation was perfect, 100% cure rate first time around, no side affects, no balance problems, no exercise scares. That for me is hard to believe in my own case, a fairly simple surgery, they closed me up for a week, and then went in 7 days later for further surgery, dissection and removal of further material. While it might be possible to get everything the first time around, few are that lucky. Lastly, brain cancer, with the cure rate below 50% is not something you mess with and try to win 7 Tour's after. You worry constantly whether you are going to relapse.

A few years ago my wife and I debated the possibility of doping after something like this. Your blood scores are so out of tolerance, we were curious if anyone could detect doping, epo or anything after the fact. Now epo can be detected by the molecules that arent natural, but prior it was more ratios and other factors. Heavy chemo messes up the red cell production, bone marrow and other factors. What a perfect excuse to test these drugs, on a cancer patient. The discussion goes much deeper, but that would be pages and pages of text.

Thank you, PP, for your post! Makes me wonder even more now. If you have the time and want to discuss further, I say LET IT RIP.

 

[TubularBills]

Can you elaborate on this? Is there some info out there showing fertility issues? I find this interesting as he and Kristen had issues conceiving originally. Now he is popping kids out naturally with his GF, no help at all.

apologies for no links - but I read that he banked sperm because the doctors indicated high probability of fertility issues post testicular cancer. Speculation, but probable, similar to vasectomy he was banking on that and participating in unprotected sex. Seems like the doctors were wrong. I've also heard of rare but occasional pregnancies in women with mastectomies.

The lesson, no guarantees. Wear a glove.

Then again, it could just be a miracle.

 

[flicker]

apologies for no links - but I read that he banked sperm because the doctors indicated high probability of fertility issues post testicular cancer. Speculation, but probable, similar to vasectomy he was banking on that and participating in unprotected sex. Seems like the doctors were wrong. I've also heard of rare but occasional pregnancies in women with mastectomies.

The lesson, no guarantees. Wear a glove.

Then again, it could just be a miracle.

Don't mess with the Zohan(His Lanceness)

 

[D-Queued]

Can you elaborate on this? Is there some info out there showing fertility issues? I find this interesting as he and Kristen had issues conceiving originally. Now he is popping kids out naturally with his GF, no help at all.

Gene doping?

This is not an off-the-wall accusation, and is more than theoretical.

As an example:

One of the first successful gene-doping tests was conducted ten years ago and targeted at defective Sertoli cells in infertile mice. Sertoli cells are known to be damaged by chemotherapy, and defective sertoli cells accounts for 10% of male-cause infertility cases.

As a poster-child for experimental drug therapy, the possibility cannot be discounted.

Dave.

 

[flicker]

Gene doping?

This is not an off-the-wall accusation, and is more than theoretical.

As an example:

One of the first successful gene-doping tests was conducted ten years ago and targeted at defective Sertoli cells in infertile mice. Sertoli cells are known to be damaged by chemotherapy, and defective sertoli cells accounts for 10% of male-cause infertility cases.

As a poster-child for experimental drug therapy, the possibility cannot be discounted.

Dave.

This is very frightening and goes beyond his Lanceness, unfortunately this is Master race material and thusly transcends the normal commentary. This goes into a whole moral territory which truly I CANnot joke about.

 

[D-Queued]

Attitude, lazerlike focus, extremely handsome, cancercuring. An unbeatable combo, what is not to like? (Like one of my other heroes Clint Eastwood, Lance is extremely handsome and masculine. I like that in a man!)

Lance is similar to another one of my favorite actors Rock Hudson, who also likes show tunes and has the scrap book bug like me.

This is very frightening and goes beyond his Lanceness, unfortunately this is Master race material and thusly transcends the normal commentary. This goes into a whole moral territory which truly I CANnot joke about.

Did someone say 'Nazi frogmen'? I think someone just jumped the shark.

Why do you love cancer?

Is there a bonus for how many of these threads you start?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

This is an interesting point. One of the first things that came out of his cancer diagnosis was the story of his team (was it Cofidis?) and the manner in which they handled his illness-it was said they basically went at him while he was in mid-treatment and cut him off completely. No salary, no medical insurance, no place on the team.

And it was not just how they did it, but when they chose to do it.

Someone who knows the details could fill us in for those like me who don't remember.

As for his mother, Lance basically lead a life that would land most on Jerry Springer. The only things missing from his trailer park upbringing were the 4 wheels and the fact that he had indoor plumbing.

I think in his contract there was something to do with him having to pass a physical. He couldn't have passed it in his condition so he was let go.

I think David Walsh dismissed this as another myth in his book, LA Confidential. Armstrong got the full backing of Cofidis. They travelled to amercia to see if was there anything they could do. He got full pay.

 

[Ferminal]

It's been discussed briefly before and remains largely unanswered, why didn't he test positive whilst he was racing undiagnosed?

 

[Barrus]

It's been discussed briefly before and remains largely unanswered, why didn't he test positive whilst he was racing undiagnosed?

Same reason probably as why most people did not test positive in those days, or even now. Badly followed procedure, but especially the primitive level of many of the tests and the infrequent and far less often taking of samples

 

[Ferminal]

Same reason probably as why most people did not test positive in those days, or even now. Badly followed procedure, but especially the primitive level of many of the tests and the infrequent and far less often taking of samples

But if the testicular cancer was playing with his numbers it would have been very obvious?

 

[Barrus]

But if the testicular cancer was playing with his numbers it would have been very obvious?

But how often was he tested during this period and what tests did his samples undergo? Probably nowhere near as often as nowadays, not as sophisticated as nowadays. Or perhaps due to doping and cancer his numbers did not vary enough to warrant suspicion? To be frank, I have no idea and think that we'll never get an answer for this

 

[Big GMaC]

Masking agents?

 

[pmcg76]

I agree with most of the sentiments already here but some of the Landis allegations gave me even more reson to dislike him.

The allegation about the positive test at Tour de Suisse in 01 and Lance and Bruyneel travelling to Lausanne to pay of the UCI. Yes seems outlandish but the evidence that Dr.Maserati dug up recently makes it very likely it happened.

Lance raced in one race only immediately after the Tour in 2001 and that race took place in Lausanne!!! I decided to do some research around this, in 99/00 Lance flew straight back to the US after the Tour not competing in any post Tour races. From 2002 on he competed in a number of the big-bucks criteriums traditionally held in Northern Europe.

2001 just stands out because it was one race only, a non-traditional post Tour race and an unlikely race for Tour champions to race, it seemed like a local race for most of the Swiss guys. The timing and the place just look too suspicious and I would totally believe the real reason Lance was in Lausanne in 2001 was to pay of the UCI.

So Lance was not just doping, he was caught after 2 Tour wins but bribed the UCI(I know not earth-shattering), what other big name rider got this kind of protection.

 

[BotanyBay]

AC didn't wait for Andy when his chain came off and yet people didn't seem to mind the way he won.

AC was already accelerating when Andy's chain came off. No way would I attack like that and then sit-up when the guy next to me screws up a shift. Shift better, my friend, shift better. Critics that bad-mouth AC for this have probably not been in a similar circumstance. I've been in that moment myself (the attacking near the top of a mountain pass), and no, in those moments, you don't sit-up and abandon the move. Once it begins, it's begun. Pick a better gear to begin with. Andy was in the big ring and when you're doing shifts in the big ring like that, there are risks involved. And he took that risk and failed.

I think Jan would have been well within his rights to keep charging on that climb (despite Tyler's stupid "bossistic" pleas). He saw Armstrong CRASH on the final climb. Fat chance he's going to rejoin. There's business to be done. It was too close to the finish to sit-up and wait. Jan literally handed that victory to Lance (well, Jan and a little EPO). And yes, Lance DID benefit from the others sitting-up and waiting for him... So what did he do? He took unfair advantage of them sitting-up and he blew right by them and went for the solo victory. As he was passing them, he probably said "Stupid fools". Because there's no way Lance would have sat-up on that final climb for Ullrich. And he should not be expected to. Did Lance get off his bike and wait for Beloki? No. The brutha crashed. Did he know how bad it was for Beloki after ridind through that field? No. Did he sit-up and see how Beloki faired? No. Race-on. That's bike racing.

 

[velogator]

I'd have to say I most dislike the bossism. The chasing-down of Simeoni was probably the turning point for me. On the day it happened, I thought he was just being a cocky, high school-like kid. Then I eventually realized that the chase-down was not a message for Simeoni, but rather for everyone else.

But perhaps even more so is the totality of the fraud, the bossism, the using people, the carefully crafted PR to help build his image, the thuggish way he goes behind the scenes to punish critics. Etc.

I don't have time to hate this guy, but I do hate the fact that THIS guy got all of the marbles.

This is my answer as well. And I'll add, I'm tired of seeing guys like him get away with it.

 

[BotanyBay]

My next issue with the guy is my belief that not only did the dope probably cause his cancer, but once he was given the new lease, he merely ramped it up again.

He wrote a book about how newly humble he's supposedly become (It's not about the bike). Humbled by Cancer. Going to Pamplona with Kik and sucking the marrow out of life, etc. Then he goes on to behave in a manner that is truly the opposite of humble.

He must have had some really serious addiction issues before his diagnosis. Because for him to go right back to it after being handed this second chance... It's a real slap in the face.

My mother died of Breast Cancer. She would not have spat on the new lease on life had one been afforded to her. That I know.

So perhaps this is why I get so upset. He's spitting on his new opportunity to live.