• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

So who will sing?

Aug 2, 2010
217
0
0
Visit site
New poster here. Believe LA doped and further believe he and JB were the ringleaders, which might be enough to satisfy Novitzky. Biggest bombshell would be bribery. We'll see.

This leads us to the GJ testimonies. Who will tell the truth? I'm especially curious about Hincapie, with his apparel line to protect.

Who will say what, and will it be enough to indict LA on fraud and possibly bribery charges?
 
Jun 9, 2009
403
1
0
Visit site
Only guesses, but:

Landis will obviously sing
I think Hamilton will, too

Lemond will make a bunch of noise

Armstrong and JB will stay with their contsant denial

Hincapie, based on an interview he gave, will likely not sing

As for fraud charges, there is not any phsysical evidence that we know about. It would be difficult to make a conviction for fraud based on heresay, especially when Armstrong already won a court battle on the matter.

Perjury is another story, but there has to be some evidence. I don't know if they have enough.

I think everyone on this forum is looking forward to the news, when it breaks.
 
I am mainly going to wait to find out rather than prognosticate, but I did want to tell you that I agree Page Mill is a very nice climb although my favorite in the SC mountains would probably be Tunitas Creek. :p
 
Aug 6, 2009
1,901
1
0
Visit site
David Suro said:
As for fraud charges, there is not any phsysical evidence that we know about. It would be difficult to make a conviction for fraud based on heresay, especially when Armstrong already won a court battle on the matter.
I won't predict the outcome of a trial or even if there's going to be a trial, but you've got a couple of things wrong. Testimony is not hearsay, Landistestifies to what he personally saw, hearsay would be if testified what Landis had told me that he saw. Also the SCA case which I believe you're referring to was settled because the judge ruled that it didn't matter whether Armstrong had doped, only that he was the official winner. It has no implications for the current case.
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
1,852
0
0
Visit site
David Suro said:
Only guesses, but:

Landis will obviously sing
I think Hamilton will, too

Lemond will make a bunch of noise

Armstrong and JB will stay with their contsant denial

Hincapie, based on an interview he gave, will likely not sing

As for fraud charges, there is not any phsysical evidence that we know about. It would be difficult to make a conviction for fraud based on heresay, especially when Armstrong already won a court battle on the matter.
Perjury is another story, but there has to be some evidence. I don't know if they have enough.

I think everyone on this forum is looking forward to the news, when it breaks.

You're good! If you don't work for Pharmstrong you should.

Direct witness testimony is not hearsay.

Which court battle did Pharmstrong win?

Whether they have enough evidence depends on how many sing besides Floyd. I'm betting Hincapie will sing along with Leipheimer, DZ, JV, and a couple of others. Armstrong will be as stubborn as usual which will compound his miseries.
 
Jul 29, 2010
431
0
0
Visit site
Most former riders will sing if faced w/ the fact that "lying before a federal prosecutor is considered a felony".

Jawge Hincapie as mentioned, has a cyclingwear line now that is in most bike shops and also has a Euro presence in that it sponsors a ProTour team. He will likely try to claim amnesia.

Other than that, I'm guessing most guys would talk. Vaughters has already said he wants any/all Garmin ppl to cooperate. That would mean: himself, VandeVelde, Zabriskie, Matt White...

Guys like Tyler, Frankie...of course they are going to talk.

In the past, nobody talked b/c they had the fear of LA's attack dog lawyers. But now they have the fear of felony charges. I'd say the feds trump the ambulance chasers on Lance's speed dial.

Also, if it goes past grand jury, then they indict him. In open court, all the testimony of former riders will be public and all over the press. That will kill the legend, for sure.

As far as proving fraudulent use of federal funds, that is the tougher test. My guess is Mark Gorski would rather tell the truth, than grab his ankles and go to jail for Lance. But who knows??
 
Nov 17, 2009
2,388
0
0
Visit site
I still don't think anything will happen to Lance because of this.

I could be wrong... perhaps things really are different... but it seems to me that with doping in cycling there have been a ton of cases where guilt seemed like a slam dunk... but rarely does anything actually happen to the riders.

I'll believe he's actually going to go down in some way when it actually happens. He's been teflon coated so far... I guess I need to see something finally stick before I believe it.

My guess is that no active cyclist says anything to directly implicate Lance. Some might admit that they did something "on their own" or something at the behest of a team manager, but the active guys won't name Lance.
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
1,852
0
0
Visit site
NashbarShorts said:
Most former riders will sing if faced w/ the fact that "lying before a federal prosecutor is considered a felony".

Jawge Hincapie as mentioned, has a cyclingwear line now that is in most bike shops and also has a Euro presence in that it sponsors a ProTour team. He will likely try to claim amnesia.

Other than that, I'm guessing most guys would talk. Vaughters has already said he wants any/all Garmin ppl to cooperate. That would mean: himself, VandeVelde, Zabriskie, Matt White...

Guys like Tyler, Frankie...of course they are going to talk.

In the past, nobody talked b/c they had the fear of LA's attack dog lawyers. But now they have the fear of felony charges. I'd say the feds trump the ambulance chasers on Lance's speed dial.

Also, if it goes past grand jury, then they indict him. In open court, all the testimony of former riders will be public and all over the press. That will kill the legend, for sure.

As far as proving fraudulent use of federal funds, that is the tougher test. My guess is Mark Gorski would rather tell the truth, than grab his ankles and go to jail for Lance. But who knows??

Nice summary!
 
NashbarShorts said:
Most former riders will sing if faced w/ the fact that "lying before a federal prosecutor is considered a felony".

Jawge Hincapie as mentioned, has a cyclingwear line now that is in most bike shops and also has a Euro presence in that it sponsors a ProTour team. He will likely try to claim amnesia.

Other than that, I'm guessing most guys would talk. Vaughters has already said he wants any/all Garmin ppl to cooperate. That would mean: himself, VandeVelde, Zabriskie, Matt White...

Guys like Tyler, Frankie...of course they are going to talk.

In the past, nobody talked b/c they had the fear of LA's attack dog lawyers. But now they have the fear of felony charges. I'd say the feds trump the ambulance chasers on Lance's speed dial.

Also, if it goes past grand jury, then they indict him. In open court, all the testimony of former riders will be public and all over the press. That will kill the legend, for sure.

As far as proving fraudulent use of federal funds, that is the tougher test. My guess is Mark Gorski would rather tell the truth, than grab his ankles and go to jail for Lance. But who knows??

Most of these guys facing the grand jury know that Novitsky was only able to get three convictions in BALCO to date and two of the three were perjury. That means they better get real forgetful or talk.

I disagree that Tyler talks, he still wants you to believe he won that gold medal and deserves it, he doesn't have a lot left and I say he protects that medal.

GH won't talk I'm guessing. Frankie probably will but don't forget what is going on in his head, he wants a DS role and to date he's a part time commentator or a 2nd tier network. He may think twice. Omerta is alive and well and he knows it.

JV will sing because he's a bit**. He and Riis are admitted dopers who are allowed to own teams. This is the core of what is wrong with cycling, dopers become owners.

I just hope that anybody who talks is banned. Tell the truth and be honorable and fix it but you're a doper now go away. I don't want to see another (ex)doper take anybody's results.
 

buckwheat

BANNED
Sep 24, 2009
1,852
0
0
Visit site
JRTinMA said:
Most of these guys facing the grand jury know that Novitsky was only able to get three convictions in BALCO to date and two of the three were perjury. That means they better get real forgetful or talk.

I disagree that Tyler talks, he still wants you to believe he won that gold medal and deserves it, he doesn't have a lot left and I say he protects that medal.

GH won't talk I'm guessing. Frankie probably will but don't forget what is going on in his head, he wants a DS role and to date he's a part time commentator or a 2nd tier network. He may think twice. Omerta is alive and well and he knows it.

JV will sing because he's a bit**. He and Riis are admitted dopers who are allowed to own teams. This is the core of what is wrong with cycling, dopers become owners.

I just hope that anybody who talks is banned. Tell the truth and be honorable and fix it but you're a doper now go away. I don't want to see another (ex)doper take anybody's results.

I'm for truth and reconciliation because most will go for it except Pharmstrong. That's why he needs to be broken.

If Tyler doesn't come clean I fear he'll be amongst cycling's long list of suicides. The guy is living an absurd existence, especially in light of his very real complaint of depression. Tyler, wtf is at your depression's root?

If Hincapie doesn't come clean, he's rivalling Pharmstrong for douchebaggery.

Novitzky and the FDA should destroy anyone who tries continuing the omerta with Weasle, Johnson, comical and all these other *** at the top of the list.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
JRTinMA said:
...

JV will sing because he's a bit**. He and Riis are admitted dopers who are allowed to own teams. This is the core of what is wrong with cycling, dopers become owners.
...........

not sure how you can compare Vaughter's and Riis.

Vaughter's talks the anti doping message and his teams results certainly show that to me.

Riis aint sorry for what he did and his teams are still at it.

I believe the least introductory measure should be that convicted dopers before they are allowed back must provide DNA for future reference. But i believe all riders in the pro game should provide DNA.
 
Oct 26, 2009
654
0
0
Visit site
buckwheat said:
I'm for truth and reconciliation because most will go for it except Pharmstrong. That's why he needs to be broken.

If Tyler doesn't come clean I fear he'll be amongst cycling's long list of suicides. The guy is living an absurd existence, especially in light of his very real complaint of depression. Tyler, wtf is at your depression's root?

If Hincapie doesn't come clean, he's rivalling Pharmstrong for douchebaggery.

Novitzky and the FDA should destroy anyone who tries continuing the omerta with Weasle, Johnson, comical and all these other *** at the top of the list.

Unfortunately, I think we are going to be stuck with testimony from a number of cyclists and no hard evidence. I'm sure if enough guys claim that they saw Lance dope, then public opinion will turn more against him. But in the end, it will be nothing more than someone's word against Lance's.
 
Jul 13, 2010
185
0
0
Visit site
maninfull said:
unfortunately, i think we are going to be stuck with testimony from a number of cyclists and no hard evidence. I'm sure if enough guys claim that they saw lance dope, then public opinion will turn more against him. But in the end, it will be nothing more than someone's word against lance's.

fail alert
 
ManInFull said:
Unfortunately, I think we are going to be stuck with testimony from a number of cyclists and no hard evidence. I'm sure if enough guys claim that they saw Lance dope, then public opinion will turn more against him. But in the end, it will be nothing more than someone's word against Lance's.

No offense, but why are we still struggling with a disconnect between direct, first-person eyewitness testimony and "hard evidence"?
 
MacRoadie said:
No offense, but why are we still struggling with a disconnect between direct, first-person eyewitness testimony and "hard evidence"?

Seriously! This is really bugging me, too!

Maybe use the analogy of witnessing a murder or something...you don't have to have found the murder weapon to testify to the event's taking place, right?
 
A large number of U.S. riders went through the Postal/Disco system, and many do not have the same risk of loss as the bigger name riders like Hincapie and Hamilton. If I were investigating this then I would be talking to people like David Clinger, Marty Jemisen, even Tommy D.
 
Jul 11, 2010
43
0
0
Visit site
NashbarShorts said:
Most former riders will sing if faced w/ the fact that "lying before a federal prosecutor is considered a felony".

Jawge Hincapie as mentioned, has a cyclingwear line now that is in most bike shops and also has a Euro presence in that it sponsors a ProTour team. He will likely try to claim amnesia.

Other than that, I'm guessing most guys would talk. Vaughters has already said he wants any/all Garmin ppl to cooperate. That would mean: himself, VandeVelde, Zabriskie, Matt White...

Guys like Tyler, Frankie...of course they are going to talk.

In the past, nobody talked b/c they had the fear of LA's attack dog lawyers. But now they have the fear of felony charges. I'd say the feds trump the ambulance chasers on Lance's speed dial.

Also, if it goes past grand jury, then they indict him. In open court, all the testimony of former riders will be public and all over the press. That will kill the legend, for sure.

As far as proving fraudulent use of federal funds, that is the tougher test. My guess is Mark Gorski would rather tell the truth, than grab his ankles and go to jail for Lance. But who knows??

Yeah i pretty much agree with what you said but id like to add that my biggest problem with Lance is not that he was doping (im mad about that) but it was his actions and intimidation of the pro peloton. Everyone knew in cycling there was a problem and that it needed to be addressed and after Festina there was a huge oppurtunity for reform and to clean up its act. Instead what happened was Lance Armstrong appeared on the scene with a hollywood style script of the "cancer hero" returning to "save cycling" and what was it nothing but a fraud engineered by him, JB, Doctor Ferrari, Chris Carmichael and aided and abetted by George Hincapie and others. I blame the media also for their hero worship and also the UCI who allowed this charade to happen and look at all the victims the french riders who he sneered at for their lack of success whilst completing clean, all the other GC guys not all but perhaps some who were forced to continue doping in order to compete an earn a living remember. Jonathan Vaughters and everyone else who is fighting for a clean sport still to this day are wary of the power Armstrong wields and how he can bring them down in a heartbeat that is why i believe Armstrong is the big problem in cycling.
 
joe_papp said:
Seriously! This is really bugging me, too!

Maybe use the analogy of witnessing a murder or something...you don't have to have found the murder weapon to testify to the event's taking place, right?

Apparently "I know you are but what am I?" and "Oh yeah? Says who?" are legimate legal defenses for some on here...
 
Apr 9, 2009
976
0
0
Visit site
BroDeal said:
A large number of U.S. riders went through the Postal/Disco system, and many do not have the same risk of loss as the bigger name riders like Hincapie and Hamilton. If I were investigating this then I would be talking to people like David Clinger, Marty Jemisen, even Tommy D.

Wasn't the rumor that Tommy D. was glad to get out of the Postal/Discovery environment?

And Jemison had his infamous confrontation with Prentice Steffen a few years back.
 
Kennf1 said:
Wasn't the rumor that Tommy D. was glad to get out of the Postal/Discovery environment?

I think one of the ESPN Slipstream series of articles had a quote by TD saying something like he was glad to be in an environment where he was not tempted to do something he did not agree with. There were also some information that TD had a falling out with JB and felt he was treated like crap when he had problems during one season.