• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

So who will sing?

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 4, 2010
1,020
0
0
Visit site
Thoughtforfood said:
It wasn't Landis' team. It was JB and LA's team. You think prosecutors are going to buy the line that Landis was the dealer? I think you are posting wishful thinking.

exactly... besides, if someone did try that on they'll be in trouble anyways... the money trail wont back up the testamony
 
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
1
0
Visit site
Dr. Maserati said:
Hincapie is at the end of his career as a Pro - he will have banked all his earnings.
I don't believe his apparel business will suffer one way or the other - unless he gets convicted of fraud.
I doubt his loyalty will extend to doing a prison sentence - and yes, perjury has to be proven, but your ridiculous claims thusfar are lie's and would quite easily be proven.

I dare you to prove it!!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Kender said:
exactly... besides, if someone did try that on they'll be in trouble anyways... the money trail wont back up the testamony

Yea, suggesting that lying to federal investigators is a walk in the park is fanciful thinking, and is devoid of what it would be like if it were you staring down the barrel of federal prison.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
scribe said:
I know. But I bust out laughing every time I type it out.

And I am busting out laughing at the thought of the elation you must feel at imagining the fumes coming off of peoples anger at reading it...its like I am laughing in the fourth person or something...:D
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Visit site
scribe said:
I dare you to prove it!!
Surely whoever would make the claim that they got PEDs from landis (todays strawman from Scribe) then it would be up to them to prove that fact?

And absolutley everyone would have to back that up - and every piece of paper from 'Tailwind'/CSE, do you really think that is likely?
 
Obviously we all know scribe is talking shyte, but it actually serves to prove a point.

The idea of Joe Blow pro cyclist fabricating and maintaining a lie of sufficient complexity and texture to convince a federal investigator or prosecutor of it's veracity is highly unlikely. Any such lie would have to be sufficiently robust to withstand both investigation and questioning under oath and penalty of perjury.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
...but no matter what, spare LA:rolleyes:

Spare the sarcasm. I know what LA did to win those tours, there is no doubt in my mind he doped. He's just a doper to me my friend, a doper like all the rest and he should be out of the sport. Unlike you I don't play favorites and I don't just dislike somebody because they are successful, jealousy drives you. I just want a clean sport and I hate all the dopers the same.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
JRTinMA said:
Spare the sarcasm. I know what LA did to win those tours, there is no doubt in my mind he doped. He's just a doper to me my friend, a doper like all the rest and he should be out of the sport. Unlike you I don't play favorites and I don't just dislike somebody because they are successful, jealousy drives you. I just want a clean sport and I hate all the dopers the same.

Unlike you, the point is not the doping to me. It is his actions against others, and his usage of cancer as a smoke screen and deflection tool. As for jealousy, simply because you suck at the teat of superficial motivation does not mean that I do. You are projecting your shallow ideas of "success" upon me. I do not view him as a success. It is sad that you do.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Unlike you, the point is not the doping to me. It is his actions against others, and his usage of cancer as a smoke screen and deflection tool. As for jealousy, simply because you suck at the teat of superficial motivation does not mean that I do. You are projecting your shallow ideas of "success" upon me. I do not view him as a success. It is sad that you do.

Its just doping to me, that's true. I have not lived such an exemplary life as you that I can toss stones from from my glass house in confidence. I never doped to earn my mediocre results so in that I am confident. I did step on a few people to get ahead in life though and for that I have made my penance.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
JRTinMA said:
Its just doping to me, that's true. I have not lived such an exemplary life as you that I can toss stones from from my glass house in confidence. I never doped to earn my mediocre results so in that I am confident. I did step on a few people to get ahead in life though and for that I have made my penance.

Wow, if you only knew how freaking funny that statement was. No, I did the kind of doping that leaves a real mark...and I got sober almost 20 years ago because of it. I never believe the doping is the point, it is always the actions of the junkie that are the real issue. I have always said that if Armstrong would just come clean and then make amends to the people he has harmed, I would have no problem with the man. I have a problem with boys who are not capable of overcoming their narcissism. Children believe the world centers around them. Adults should realize the childish nature of such a thought. Mr Armstrong does not appear capable of such thought, are you?

We all step on people at some point in life. It is how and whether you make amends that is the real measure of a man. If you did so, you did something Mr Armstrong never has. Junkies in denial, still hammering the lives of those around them are pretty abhorrent to me because I have seen what they can do when they change their lives for the better.
 
Thoughtforfood said:
Wow, if you only knew how freaking funny that statement was. No, I did the kind of doping that leaves a real mark...and I got sober almost 20 years ago because of it. I never believe the doping is the point, it is always the actions of the junkie that are the real issue. I have always said that if Armstrong would just come clean and then make amends to the people he has harmed, I would have no problem with the man. I have a problem with boys who are not capable of overcoming their narcissism. Children believe the world centers around them. Adults should realize the childish nature of such a thought. Mr Armstrong does not appear capable of such thought, are you?

We all step on people at some point in life. It is how and whether you make amends that is the real measure of a man. If you did so, you did something Mr Armstrong never has. Junkies in denial, still hammering the lives of those around them are pretty abhorrent to me because I have seen what they can do when they change their lives for the better.

I think I am capable of such thought, I made it clear I made my penance. Before I make this point let be clear again, I am against dopers and I know he doped, thats enough for me.

Now if you want him to make amends to cycling I simply can't agree, the sport has been fueled by drugs for a long time before LA. The very nature of the people who got into cycling made them easily manipulated. Cycling is a sport of loners and loners are easily manipulated. LA didn't start the manipulation but he fit the mold perfectly of somebody to fall prey to the manipulation and then he continued it himself. Look at what goes on in youth hockey in Canada and you will see the same thing better chronicled. If you want him to make amends to cancer patients for what he did well then maybe. He got rich from cancer for sure. But he wasn't the first person to get cancer because of his own behavior. Smoking, horrible american diets, all lead to cancer yet we feel bad when we see it. I worked with a woman who was bald from chemo but went to the smoking area outside every 30 minutes. So LA didn't hurt me and I don't think he hurt cycling all on his own, I think the drug culture he was part of ruined this great sport. Anyway as Ringo would say, peace and love, peace and love, I'm outta here.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
JRTinMA said:
I think I am capable of such thought, I made it clear I made my penance. Before I make this point let be clear again, I am against dopers and I know he doped, thats enough for me.

I actually assumed you had.

JRTinMA said:
Now if you want him to make amends to cycling I simply can't agree, the sport has been fueled by drugs for a long time before LA. The very nature of the people who got into cycling made them easily manipulated. Cycling is a sport of loners and loners are easily manipulated. LA didn't start the manipulation but he fit the mold perfectly of somebody to fall prey to the manipulation and then he continued it himself. Look at what goes on in youth hockey in Canada and you will see the same thing better chronicled. If you want him to make amends to cancer patients for what he did well then maybe. He got rich from cancer for sure. But he wasn't the first person to get cancer because of his own behavior. Smoking, horrible american diets, all lead to cancer yet we feel bad when we see it. I worked with a woman who was bald from chemo but went to the smoking area outside every 30 minutes. So LA didn't hurt me and I don't think he hurt cycling all on his own, I think the drug culture he was part of ruined this great sport. Anyway as Ringo would say, peace and love, peace and love, I'm outta here.

I don't think he owes cycling or me anything. I think he owes the people he hurt amends.
 
Here's the thing. Nobody who goes in is going to know exactly what anybody else said, so the stories can't be coordinated. All it's going to take is one partial acknowledgment of everyone on the bus getting infused on the side of the road in 2004 to start the flow over the dam.

What can anyone there say when presented a question, "we've been told by three people present that all the riders received blood on the bus -- what did you see happen?"

Your answer is either going to be true, or inconsistent with something someone else has said, and you won't know how. You aren't going to get away with "I don't remember, I was really tired and went to sleep."

-dB
 
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
1
0
Visit site
dbrower said:
Here's the thing. Nobody who goes in is going to know exactly what anybody else said, so the stories can't be coordinated. All it's going to take is one partial acknowledgment of everyone on the bus getting infused on the side of the road in 2004 to start the flow over the dam.

What can anyone there say when presented a question, "we've been told by three people present that all the riders received blood on the bus -- what did you see happen?"

Your answer is either going to be true, or inconsistent with something someone else has said, and you won't know how. You aren't going to get away with "I don't remember, I was really tired and went to sleep."

-dB
assuming the bus-transfusion event occured, it isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone like hincapie to say that he has done over 15 tours, comprising of over 300 race schedule days. And that not only doesn't he recall that happening, but that he has never doped, and has been tested multiple times without a positive as proof.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Visit site
scribe said:
assuming the bus-transfusion event occured, it isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone like hincapie to say that he has done over 15 tours, comprising of over 300 race schedule days. And that not only doesn't he recall that happening, but that he has never doped, and has been tested multiple times without a positive as proof.
....and assuming all that it isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone else to confirm the bus doping incident and say "George was there too" - and confirm Manzanos story that USPS were given advance notice of OOC tests...
Hincapie is smart enough to know that you won't go to jail for doping - but you can for lying.

Sorry Scribe - its time to change the record.
 
Jun 23, 2009
18
0
0
Visit site
buckwheat said:
You're good! If you don't work for Pharmstrong you should.

Direct witness testimony is not hearsay.

Which court battle did Pharmstrong win?

Whether they have enough evidence depends on how many sing besides Floyd. I'm betting Hincapie will sing along with Leipheimer, DZ, JV, and a couple of others. Armstrong will be as stubborn as usual which will compound his miseries.

Sorry to be so late with the comment, but direct witness testimony can most certainly be hearsay - as in "I heard Joe Blow say this is EPO." Hearsay and there may be an "exception" to the rule that allows its introduction, but still hearsay.

But you are right about weight of evidence. If a number say that they doped, knew it at the time, describe how they knew it to be dope, etc. and not vitamins, electrolytes, etc, then you might have something.

Likely a comprehensive case of "memory loss" will beset the group.
 
Oct 26, 2009
654
0
0
Visit site
Dr. Maserati said:
....and assuming all that it isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone else to confirm the bus doping incident and say "George was there too" - and confirm Manzanos story that USPS were given advance notice of OOC tests...
Hincapie is smart enough to know that you won't go to jail for doping - but you can for lying.

Sorry Scribe - its time to change the record.

You certainly think that it would play out like this--unless everyone decides to lie...
 

Barrus

BANNED
Apr 28, 2010
3,480
0
0
Visit site
ManInFull said:
You certainly think that it would play out like this--unless everyone decides to lie...

That is the classical prisoners dilemma.
Can you be absolutely sure no-one else talks. Or do you take the chance and talk yourself and that way either get no, or a reduced sentence. Most often the latter seems like a better option at the time, especially for someone as Hincapie, who has a lot to lose and not that long of a career left
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Visit site
ManInFull said:
You certainly think that it would play out like this--unless everyone decides to lie...

Who went to jail in the BALCO investigation - the people who admitted doping, or the people who lied?
Do you really think peoples loyalty extends to doing jail time for Lance (or anyone else?).

For any lie to work - everyone now brought in for questioning would have to back up each and every lie, every time ......... or they could just tell the truth and save their own skin.
 
Sep 25, 2009
7,527
1
0
Visit site
Barrus said:
That is the classical prisoners dilemma.
Can you be absolutely sure no-one else talks. Or do you take the chance and talk yourself and that way either get no, or a reduced sentence. Most often the latter seems like a better option at the time, especially for someone as Hincapie, who has a lot to lose and not that long of a career left
it goes beyond just talking by a collaborator or a witness.

there could be an electronic record from the past or a current tape from a legitimate substantive source not excluding a federally authorized one.

if these fellas decide to lie they better not listen to scribe.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
ManInFull said:
You certainly think that it would play out like this--unless everyone decides to lie...

yeah but if people know others are lier's who can they trust to keep the lie going and are the 'team' all gonna sing from the same hymn sheet?

Most will be going in not knowing what was allegedly said by the others, so big risk to take to tell lies to a grand jury and have that on your CV for the rest of your life. Is it worth the risk, when the rider's can plead that is all they were, rider's following orders...