Sour grapes from Vaughters?

[Ferminal]

I recall MANY races in which the team was hardly there supporting Thor by way of a train or positional protection before Thor launched himself from behind the HTC train! It was practically a one man team at nearly every single finish! Cervelo Thor Team! Even when Thor pushed through the mountain to secure his green jersey he was on his own.

Even Haussler was often left to his own devices at the final dash for the line during the Spring classics. No wonder the dude got injured. His stage win in the TdF was a lone attack, too. Face it, the team stunk at racing like a team. Maybe it was really, really good at testing Gerard's products and producing slick documentaries, but...well you get the idea.

Does anyone recall a successful CTT lead out for Thor in any of the grand tours? It was excruciating to watch him have to fight against the full HTC train all on his own. If everyone was busy testing their boss's equipment, then little wonder! Maybe teams need to focus on getting their train right sometimes?

No doubt the test certainly provided Cervelo with nice frames. And their kits looked quite nice. But winning and getting results is a Pro Team's bread and butter. That attracts major sponsors.

And yes. I recall all the documentaries. So many documentaries. Not many results. Not much well-drilled cohesion when it counted. But the documentaries and products were fabulous!

Are you seriously suggesting the lack of a sprint train which competes with THR is because of their "testing" ?

 

[Bailey]

This has to be one of the stupidest posts ever made on this forum, and that is saying a lot. Your whole rant boils down to complaining about the word "test" in the team's name. Cervelo testing stuff is no different than the bike sponsor of any other team. They all test their stuff at the pro level so they can use it in their marketing campaigns. The team could have been just as well have been named the Cervelo Happy Go Fantastic Cycling Team.

Psssst, every single race in Formula 1 is used by teams to test new components and gather data for the next round of component testing.

It wasn't just their name - it was their "philosophy", as you know very well. And frankly i think it was disrespectful to do that. If it's standard practice across teams, why make it such a big deal? Why the pretense? What, was that all just marketing faff? If it was, then why pretend it really meant anything?

I think you'll find my rant also deals with the topic of this thread, which i've tried to guide us back to twice now.

 

[Bailey]

Are you seriously suggesting the lack of a sprint train is because of their "testing" ?

No. Note the smiley.

I'm suggesting the team had its priorities wrong. And it had a **** train.

A funnier suggestion you're diverting attention away from is Gerard Vroomen's suggestion that other teams used in-frame motors.

 

[Bailey]

This has to be one of the stupidest posts ever made on this forum, and that is saying a lot.

Funny you should say that. From this end many of your posts seem pretty stupid, too.

 

[BroDeal]

It wasn't just their name - it was their "philosophy", as you know very well. And frankly i think it was disrespectful to do that. If it's standard practice across teams, why make it such a big deal? Why the pretense? What, was that all just marketing faff? If it was, then why pretend it really meant anything?

I think you'll find my rant also deals with the topic of this thread, which i've tried to guide us back to twice now.

The topic of the thread is Vaughters getting rid of White, not some loon whinging about a cycling team's choice of name.

 

[Ferminal]

No. Note the smiley.

I'm suggesting the team had its priorities wrong. And it had a **** train.

A funnier suggestion you're diverting attention away from is Gerard's suggestion that other teams used in-frame motors.

Erm, I'm responding to your post whereby you said that sponsors shouldn't gather research from their teams. I don't care about Gruber, there are plenty of threads on it (from May, incidentally) if you wish to discuss it.

Would you not say that failures of team cohesion is more a failure in the DS' and sporting managers, than the principle sponsor and owner? You're making a broad generalisation by saying "team", it's made up of many different aspects. In terms of influence on performance, Cervelo is nothing compared to the riders and managers. Of course, your POV would be much more agreeable if you had some quotes from former employees of the CTT suggesting their "research" was evil.

Or would you say the disharmony in 2009 Astana was a result of Trek and the Kazakhs?

 

[Bailey]

The topic of the thread is Vaughters getting rid of White, not some loon whinging about a cycling team's choice of name.

Correct.

It got diverted when Vroomen dropped in to reply to a comment i made regarding his credibility on commenting about White's ridiculous dismissal. I addressed that, too, in the post you claimed was the stupidest post ever made on this forum. Consider taking another look.

He also happened to tell us he really does reckon other teams used in-frame motors in 2010. That's loony.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

HOw about we get back to Vaughters and White? If you want to discuss Cervelo, open a new thread.

And cool it with the insults.

Those aren't actually suggestions, either....

Susan

 

[Bailey]

Erm, I'm responding to your post whereby you said that sponsors shouldn't gather research from their teams.

I didn't say that.

To clarify what my point was (and i'm under an intensive barrage from multiple fronts, so perhaps i need to retreat somewhat!):

By the time racing begins, testing might have been more helpful if it had taken place beforehand. It's weird, and uncommon, to name and base a pro team in any sport on the testing process. CTT's motto of "Winning Is Not The Only Thing" implied the competition is secondary to the process. That's all i was observing. Clearly my opinion differs from other peoples'.

If it helps us all get back onto the topic of the thread, please disregard my personal opinion on that issue. I don't want to offend anyone as i clearly have.

 

[Bailey]

i note that back in 2007 (Vroomen) strongly supported Bjarne Riis after he confessed to having been a part of the sport's doping problem, yet now (he's) been very quick to express (his) relief that Matt White got the sack on a ridiculously strict technicality - even though Vaughters has very clearly and explicitly stated that he has "no doubt whatsoever" that, while at Garmin, White was not and is not involved in any doping activities whatsoever. Confusing at best, hypocritical at worst.

That's the paragraph for Garmin-Cervelo sycophants to attack.

If it helps, I withdraw all the other stuff to help the thread get back on track.

 

[euanli]

You F1 analogy is flawed anyway because

1. The public can pay to get in and watch the testing
2. Last year the BBC broadcast at least one pre season test session, and all Friday test sessions
3. In F1 testing gets almost as much coverage as race days

Anyway surely the sponsors are the ones who set the goals of the team. If the sponsor makes the statement "winning isn't everything" then that's fine.

 

[Roland Rat]

HOw about we get back to Vaughters and White? If you want to discuss Cervelo, open a new thread.

And cool it with the insults.

Those aren't actually suggestions, either....

Susan

Two posts since this? (not including the one posted at the same time). You're losing your touch, Susan. Time to get the whip out.

 

[Bailey]

You F1 analogy is flawed anyway because

1. The public can pay to get in and watch the testing
2. Last year the BBC broadcast at least one pre season test session, and all Friday test sessions
3. In F1 testing gets almost as much coverage as race days

Anyway surely the sponsors are the ones who set the goals of the team. If the sponsor makes the statement "winning isn't everything" then that's fine.

Ok.

In the interests of free speech and expression, I'll try to keep any of my contentious opinions to myself. Apologies.

 

[Bailey]

Two posts since this? (not including the one posted at the same time). You're losing your touch, Susan. Time to get the whip out.

Mine refers to Garmin-Cervelo's Gerard Vroomen press statement on White's dismissal. It was on topic.

 

[movingtarget]

Not so. The only Aussie to worry about losing would be Haussler. The rest are workers or youngsters.

+ I'd be glad to see Haussler on another team because I think he'll be limited by the presence of Hushovd or Farrar at lots of races that would suit him.

I don't agree. Bobridge and Meyer will be lost as well because these are the riders for the future. The riders that the new team is being developed for. Vaughters was quick to sign them up under the noses of other teams. I know that potential is not always fulfilled but they both look to have bright future's at the moment. Haussler is a proven rider and I agree, he would be better elsewhere. The late collapse of Cervelo probably did not leave him many options as to picking a team. He will go as well. Not sure how long the younger riders have signed for but as we know, contracts are made to be broken..........or bought out. Garmin still have Hushovd and Farrar and Hesjedal so the team has depth and some really good domestiques. A pretty solid team. They will win some good races this year.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Back to Vaughters. NOW.

For any further Cervelo discussion, open a new thread.

Susan

 

[rickshaw]

Sorry for the delay

Is this video available to watch anywhere? Can't seem to find it.]

"Del Moral was also videotaped by journalists disposing of medical waste at t"he 2000 Tour for US Postal. The bags included syringes, intravenous apparatus and a calf's blood extract called Actovegin. The find was fodder for Armstrong doubters, who viewed it as evidence of doping within the team, but an investigation opened by French police eventually went nowhere and was closed two years later."

The quote is from the original CN article dated 1/23/11. Like everyone else posting here, I unfortunately only have secondary sources. I made an incorrect reference. It was "journalists" who videotaped the disposal, not the police. The "French Police" (whoever that is) apparently took two years to do nothing and closed the case.

pss All brands of Chauvinism are equally laughable IMO

 

[DrC0721]

Why don't they sack Vande Velde and Zabriskie too? They have been, allegedly, linked to doping with US Postal. It sounds more like politics and sour grapes to me as well.

 

[BroDeal]

Why don't they sack Vande Velde and Zabriskie too? They have been, allegedly, linked to doping with US Postal. It sounds more like politics and sour grapes to me as well.

They have not been linked since they joined Slipstream. Stop making excuses for White. He sent a rider to see a notorious doctor, one that White and Vaughters have personal experience with since they were both on Postal. They both know what going to Moral means. White might as well as have sent Lowe to Dr. Fuentes or Dr. Ferrari.

If you want to be angry with someone and you are okay with the whole omerta thing then you should be angry with Trent Lowe, who threw his mate under the bus during a money dispute with Slipstream.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

you should be angry with Trent Lowe, who threw his mate under the bus during a money dispute with Slipstream.

Off Topic, but the 'money disputes' encountered by riders leaving the team at the end of 2010 could be a whole other thread. If it isn't already? I've heard some really disturbing things about JV refusing to pay guys there due... just because they wouldn't be back in 2011.

Kind of scummy. I'd guess you and RaceRadio have some info on this?

 

[BroDeal]

Off Topic, but the 'money disputes' encountered by riders leaving the team at the end of 2010 could be a whole other thread. If it isn't already? I've heard some really disturbing things about JV refusing to pay guys there due... just because they wouldn't be back in 2011.

Kind of scummy. I'd guess you and RaceRadio have some info on this?

It could very well be a scummy tactic taken from the Bruyneel-Armstrong playbook, which screwed many a rider who was leaving the team out of his split of the team's prize money.

On the other hand, during the off season riders are not racing. The only duty that a rider has to the team is to train in his team kit on the team bike. If Lowe was training on another bike in another kit then he is not doing his job, so why should the team pay him?

It is interesting that when Lowe did not get paid, the way he told Slipstream to F off was to reveal info that caused the removal of White, someone who would not have had anything to do with the decision to not pay Lowe. Lowe decided to cause Garmin embarassment by stabbing his bro in the back. That's just cold.

 

[TRDean]

It could very well be a scummy tactic taken from the Bruyneel-Armstrong playbook, which screwed many a rider who was leaving the team out of his split of the team's prize money.

On the other hand, during the off season riders are not racing. The only duty that a rider has to the team is to train in his team kit on the team bike. If Lowe was training on another bike in another kit then he is not doing his job, so why should the team pay him?

It is interesting that when Lowe did not get paid, the way he told Slipstream to F off was to reveal info that caused the removal of White, someone who would not have had anything to do with the decision to not pay Lowe. Lowe decided to cause Garmin embarassment by stabbing his bro in the back. That's just cold.

I don't know if this is actually how things went down...but if so...that is really cold!

 

[gerard@cervelo.com]

If your are seriously suggesting your team lost races due to opposing teams' products using built-in engines, then you are a very arrogant chap indeed. In fact, you're taking arrogance to another level!

Holy mackerel people, do we really need pink fonts for any satire? Jeez, lighten up!

 

[ingsve]

Holy mackerel people, do we really need pink fonts for any satire? Jeez, lighten up!

This is the internet, it's filled with very strange people so yes, using a sarcasterisk is usually needed especially around people you don't know.

 

[Bailey]

Upon receiving this new information we immediately conducted an internal investigation and found a PDF attachment to an email sent by Trent to Slipstream team doctor, Dr. Prentice Steffen, copying Jonathan Vaughters in June 2009.

The PDF attachment was a copy of Trent's UCI quarterly health check blood test conducted in June 2009 and it contained the name of Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral in the letterhead of the results. Neither Dr. Steffen nor Jonathan Vaughters noticed del Moral's name on the letterhead in June 2009 and, at the time, neither Dr. Steffen nor Vaughters were aware that Trent had visited del Moral.

In fact, Slipstream was not made aware of any interaction with del Moral until Trent disclosed the information on January 6, 2011. The test results were forwarded to the UCI, as is protocol with quarterly health checks.

That section of today's Garmin press release is relevant.

I should probably say the following is MY OWN OPINION. I have no idea if it also represents Canadian contract law or whatever jurisdiction under which the Garmin business operates.

Lowe notifying Vaughters or Vaughters' staff in June 2009, via an email-attached pdf, with his reference to the del Moral visit in that pdf's LETTERHEAD no less, is enough to put Vaughters ON CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE AT THAT TIME of Lowe's del Moral visit.

Vaughters and Garmin were on notice as of the moment that email attachment hit Vaughter's inbox. At law, this concept is referred to as being placed under "constructive knowledge". That means whether you know it or not, you should know it and other people can rely on the assumption that you do know it.

Constructive knowledge has the effect that Vaughters knew of the del Moral visit and that fact can be relied upon by Lowe. And obviously, by extension, White. Both can assume they've done nothing their bosses don't sanction and endorse. Vaughters continued to allow both Lowe and White to operate - for over a season and a half - under that assumption.

If Vaughters or Vaughters' staff didn't read his emails, well that wasn't Lowe's problem. Nor was it White's problem. Effective notice had been made at that time.

By virtue of the fact that Vaughters retained both Lowe and White from that moment on, and allowed both employees to represent him in ongoing business, Vaughters conduct is such that he accepts the situation and gave it the OK. Both Lowe and White have a legal right to expect they have done nothing that Vaughters disagrees with.

As for any suggestion Lowe and his counsel demanded money to stay quiet about it, well i can only speak for myself and say that **** just ain't on and i don't blame Vaughters & Co for feeling quite miffed by that. Poor form on Lowe's part (or his advisor). Naive and stupid.

But that's just my opinion. If Garmin's contract jurisdiction is anything similar to Australian contract law, i think Vaughters might have some problems if either Lowe or White take it up.

Either way, saying "I don't read my emails and i don't take my riders' correspondence to me seriously" is no defence to the charge that you knew about something that was in those emails at the time they are sent.