Spain, since 1992.

[Señor_Contador]

Why do you want to know ?

Actually, I already know the answer, so you can point out the PED activity in my home country's sports.

As I expected, you about to use the "they all do it" excuse.

They do "all do it", but to differing degrees. Spain IS up there with the US, Russia, and China.


Here is some of the other excuses you are about to use

- You can't prove it in a court of law.
- You are just jealous.
- They have never tested positive.
- Innocent until proven guilty.
- You are stupid.
- You are crazy.


I know because I have already gone through this in the tennis forums. The denial, and Omerta there is even stronger (because no-one ever gets caught) than it is here.

No, the only reason I ask you that is because if you had only bothered to check the number of sanctioned positive cases, per country, you'd quickly find out that Spain is nowhere near countries like the US, China and some others. Hence the absurdity of your comments.

Now, I suspect your motives have little to do with doping and more to do with something else so... please, don't let me stop you.

 

[hrotha]

This may be off topic but I found something on twitter posted by a Spanish sprinter (whose already been indicted before):

Primer dia sin humo!!!!! Felicidades a todos los que no fumamos!!!! Y a los que fuman tambien, al final lo agradecerán.

Which translated:

First day smoke free !!!!! Congratulations to all who do not smoke!! And those who also smoke at the end thank you.

I'm amazed someone who is now back in the Pro peloton can be a smoker. Is that even possible?

Whoever wrote that didn't mean he just quit smoking. On January 1st a new law came into force restricting smoking in public places even further - basically banning it altogether. That's what he's talking about.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

This thread has been brought to our attention. I have very few problems with people speculating about how much of the the sports results of a particular country are tainted by drug use. Well argued it could make a fascinating thread. Multiple threads even, as drugs in sport aren't unique to Spain. Far far from it.

But to be very clear: what won't be tolerated is nation-bashing for the sake of nation bashing.

So comments like these...



.... are skirting a very very fine line. If anyone wants to make further claims like these in threads that single out a single nation, you'd better have some hard evidence before making wild and unsubstantiated "clearly much more" claims like that.

Otherwise I will judge it to be nation bashing for the sake of doing so. Which is the sort of trolling that we don't tolerate.

And no, that original post doesn't come anywhere near offering facts that bridge the gap between unsubstantiated hunch and the rather wild accusation made in the quote that singles out a single nation. Drugs in sport, and drug scandals at top level, has a pretty well stamped international passport.

It is anyone's guess who does exactly how much and how often. The more exact your statements, the more exact your argument will have to be. Otherwise I will judge it to be exactly the sort of nation bashing that we won't tolerate.

Feel free to have an interesting discussion. Think before hitting the submit button if you have something to say about what "a nation clearly does".

Carry on, and keep it interesting (only).

If we're only interested in FACTS (CAPITALS!), would that entail proven positives only as relevant in a nation by nation discussion.

Is it really borderline 'nation bashing' to notice when a country experiences a sustained and unprecendented uplifted in its international sporting performance at precisely the time that EPO came online.

There may well be innocent explanations, perhaps even probably so, but surely that's a relevant and interesting discussion to be had which doesn't need to descend to any sort of ratialist or nationalistic level (although I can well understand Spaniards being sensitive to the topic).

 

[Francois the Postman]

Waterloo Sunrise wrote this, and then deleted his message. My excuses for replying to it anyway, as my reply might help people to get the right end of my stick.

If we're only interested in FACTS (CAPITALS!), would that entail proven positives only as relevant in a nation by nation discussion.

Is it really borderline 'nation bashing' to notice when a country experiences a sustained and unprecendented uplifted in its international sporting performance at precisely the time that EPO came online.

There may well be innocent explanations, perhaps even probably so, but surely that's a relevant and interesting discussion to be had which doesn't need to descend to any sort of ratialist or nationalistic level (although I can well understand Spaniards being sensitive to the topic).

Which is exactly why I have let every single post in this thread stand. Again: we really really welcome debate, and a frank exchange of opinions. We really really dislike bashing for the sake of bashing. If we moderate, it is to encourage an exchange of opinions, not to discourage it. By taking the mudslinging out of the exchanges and keep people on topic, and respectful to fellow posters.

Nor, at no point did I suggest you can only discuss proven facts. This is the bloody clinic, we even welcome and accept speculation. Heck, "we" frequently say that "all in the peloton are at it", and none of us know that for sure. 99% of the clinic is speculation, and informed speculation to varying degrees.

Nor did I say it was nation bashing to note an interesting shift in 1992 for whatever nation is put under the microscope. This has the potential to be a very interesting thread, so I actually warmly welcome it, as long as people can keep some sort of clear head whilst posting.

What I did say is that unsubstantiated (and impossible to substantiate) claims like "the name-your-nation-or-culture-of-choice clearly do it more than other" are walking into "bashing" terrain, and if you are going to post along those lines, think twice before making that sort of statement in it. Don't even come anywhere near calling each other stupid.

Exchange opinions any way you want, as long as you stay respectful whilst doing so, and are seen not be bashing for bashing sake. The more fair and reflective your argument, the more likely it will be the sort of post that we treasure. Those we really welcome heartedly, speculative and all.

That's (really) all folks. Carry on as you were.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Gérard Guillaume, le médecin de la Française des jeux déclare dans L'Humanité : "Il est admis, sauf pour les autorités espagnoles, que l’Espagne est la plaque tournante du dopage européen, pour tous les sports. Le jour où l’Espagne se mettra à combattre le dopage avec la même vigueur qu’ailleurs, sans doute aurons-nous fait de gros progrès en Europe."

Google translation:
Gerard Guillaume, the French doctor says games in L'Humanite: "It is allowed, except for the Spanish authorities, that Spain is the European hub of doping, for all sports. The day Spain will start to fight doping with equal force elsewhere, probably will we made great progress in Europe. "

I don't buy that spanish footballers are physically superior to their opponents. Besides, they are generally smaller than most other teams which means better running economy.

Check out Russia in the Euro -08 for an example of extreme endurance in football. I remember the km's covered stat was quite eye-catching.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

A dodgy translation of a french article on doping suspicions against Nadal.

The Illustrated – 11.02.2009

The controversy

The dark side of a champion

Written by Blaise Calame

Rafael Nadal, the era of suspicion

Superhuman performance, strikes from elsewhere, a physical Gladiator: in 22 years, the Spanish tennis over the planet. But is it flawless? Her young career is fraught with gray areas.

Melbourne, 1 February 2009. Spaniard Rafael Nadal won his first Australian Open after a gripping final in five sets. Roger Federer is empty, broken, bitter. Powerless, he cries. Nadal the console, triumphant.

Including his semi-final marathon against Verdasco, the Majorcan just spend nine hours on court 37 in less than two days to run as a consideration. Federer, who had folded his semi-final in three sets, has been exhausted. So in the span of the Rod Laver Arena, there are those who celebrate the triumph of the king Nadal. And those who doubt.

Questions about a champion

Nadal is it doped? The small world of tennis hate talk. No player is likely to condemn the world: fear for the image, fear for the sponsors. But the short and brilliant career of the Spanish has always been accompanied by questions. Out of adolescence with Gladiator overpowering arm, the ability to recover non-standard, and the excitement evident between points as if he was still hot after five hours of Thursday while it was 35 degrees: the boy forced air perfect suspect.

Suspect because that beyond the standards. Superhuman. “Rafa is so much intensity in each point that something will eventually drop in his body,” said recently in London, Pete Sampras. A year ago, his coach and uncle Toni Nadal gave the Diario de Mallorca: “Rafa is suffering from chronic inflammation in his left foot. This is very serious. “Since then, he would not run in training. However, on the court …

In 2003, Nadal is suspected of taking anabolic steroids. Three years later, a large tennis magazine evokes a positive control in the tournament in Dubai, without result. At Roland Garros in 2004, Le Temps speaks of “sports high-ranking” for reporting a doping investigation against three Spanish players: Nadal, Juan Carlos Ferrero and Alex Corretja. The blow falls. The following year, in the final of Roland Garros, Nadal atomizing Argentine Mariano Puerta … which will itself be sanctioned for doping. In 2006 Puerto case broke (see below).

Last year, finally, after his victory against Federer in Paris, the daily L’Equipe revealed that Nadal was tested positive to etilefrine, a stimulant that he had prescribed against influenza...

That’s a lot for one man. “I’ve never taken anything in my life, says the Spanish. I have not received such education. “Meanwhile, he surrounds himself with lawyers.

The shortcomings of tennis

The chance to Nadal and the other is without doubt that we have long believed that tennis doping did not exist. A wrong, even if the controls are recent serious. Previously, it was the ATP, so the players, who managed the problem with the International Tennis Federation (ITF). The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) has demanded an end to the too familiar refrain of dirty laundry washed in the family. Now, the ITF acts alone is better. But is it enough?

“Some sports federations are very open in relation to communication about doping, while others, like tennis, much less,” says Martial Saugy, head of the Swiss laboratory analysis of doping. Therefore, the list of cheaters has recognized only one winner of a Grand Slam tournament, the Czech Petr Korda, a team of Argentine and non-grade. Pinched in 2004, the Briton Greg Rusedski balance: “Half the players on the Top 100 are doped! It does not say … because the ATP has led a tough life for the few snitches. For expressing his doubts about some players fresh in the fifth set that first, the French Nicolas Escudé was even forced to make a public apology.

Pharmacy possible doping tennis is rich with the power to strike: Nandrolone and anabolic steroids, for Endurance: steroids, ephedrine and nandrolone; for the concentration finally: ephedrine.

“Before, players took amphetamines. Why they not only use of EPO today? “Last summer was a doctor in humanity. Dr Bernard Montalvan, doctor teams from France tennis stated unequivocally: “The urine tests are outdated.” However, the vast majority of players outside the blood.

Unsure of their relevance in the tournament, Martial Saugy rather pleads for longitudinal follow-up and increased random checks. “In recent years, we went to a more sophisticated doping to prepare the body for better support recovery and long efforts, he adds. This doping was more difficult to detect. It combines a mosaic of growth hormone, EPO and steroids (testosterone), which will act on several metabolic routes with great variability between individuals. ”

The case of Puerto

February 2006: The Spanish Civil Guard, warned two years earlier by the repentant cyclist Jesús Manzano, in Madrid discovered a clandestine laboratory blood samples. On 23 May, Dr Eufemiano Fuentes was arrested. The seizure is spectacular: 224 bags of blood, blood products and plasma, anabolic steroids, the EPO and growth hormones. Four days later, Dr. Fuentes was released on bail. We learn quickly that, of 200 athletes (!) Concerned, at least 58 cyclists, including Italian Ivan Basso and German Jan Ullrich, have consulted.
The Spanish justice s’ingénie however to ensure that the names of other athletes are not disclosed. The headlines refer Rafael Nadal, the footballers of Real Madrid and Barcelona. Rafa’s uncle, Miguel Angel Nadal, played at Barça. Has he introduced his nephew to Dr. Fuentes? The Spanish Minister for Sport, Jaime Lissavetsky, rises to niche: “No footballer or tennis player is involved.” Problem: the ministerial statement is disputed by Fuentes himself July 6, broadcast on Cadena SER .

The Spanish justice turned a deaf ear. The Puerto case is classified for the first time in March 2007 and again in late September 2008. Meanwhile, an anti-doping law was passed in Spain, but without retroactive effect, it may not apply. On 12 January, however, the ears: in response to calls from the prosecution, the International Cycling Union (UCI) and the World Anti-Doping Agency in particular, the Madrid judge Antonio Serrano to reopen this issue reeks of bomb . Will there soon if Nadal has offered the services of Dr Fuentes expensive?

The pride of Spain

The Puerto highlights to fighting doping, Spain has long dragged its feet. Things are changing, but slowly. “Spain is a country that exists across the sport,” says the director of the Swiss laboratory in the fight against doping. It feels good when you have a case positive for the Spanish sports compared to others, by passing the controllers for the guilty! “Spain will not hear, much less from the country’s entry into recession in late 2008. For Spaniards, the suspicion hanging over their champions, as Nadal, are just jealous conspiracies fomented abroad.

A logical reaction, “says sociologist Raffaele Poli, Institute of Sports Science, University of Lausanne. “The emotions are the victories are stronger than the doubts hanging over the sport.” He noted “a trend toward social acceptance of doping.”

Highlights muscles and raging fists, Nadal is the symbol of a triumphant conquering Spain, bulimic victories. There, the sport is king, King Juan Carlos loves the sport. And when he kisses Nadal, he is his equal. “In Spain, the political pressure is huge in football, athletics and tennis,” dares a specialist in anti-doping. Overcome or die: no one else. For the moment, Rafael Nadal remains untouchable. B. Ca

The dark

The Majorcan Rafael Nadal, living embodiment of the fighting spirit. His gaze cache there any truth less flamboyant?

March 2003

The tournament in Hamburg, Rafael Nadal still has a figure comparable to that of other athletes his age.

January 2008

Training on the sidelines of the Australian Open in Melbourne. The morphology of Nadal, all muscles, is impressive.

Doping

Arrested in Madrid, then released, Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes (inset) conducted a laboratory processing blood products. Rafael Nadal has benefited from its services.

Equal princes

6 July 2008: Rafael Nadal won his first title at Wimbledon. Leaping to the Tribune, he is warmly embraced by Prince Felipe and Princess Letizia of Spain, which give it the same time the status of untouchable

 

[Señor_Contador]

The thing is that the war on doping is an unwinnable war. Every sports authority knows this. Yet, the public, falls for it every single time. And an inmense amount of resources is funneled to fight this futile "war".

And it works because most people are simple-minded, ask very little and care not about the problem because it happens 2,000 miles away, in a country far away.

It's an amazing thing you know... you're able to focus all the disgust and hate on a country and it's people, turn them into evil cheats who do evil things.

Once you've successfully diverted the attention to another country you're free to do as you like in your own country.

How many Operación Puertos have there been in your own country?

 

[Francois the Postman]

The thing is that the war on doping is an unwinnable war. Every sports authority knows this. Yet, the public, falls for it every single time. And an inmense amount of resources is funneled to fight this futile "war".

And it works because most people are simple-minded, ask very little and care not about the problem because it happens 2,000 miles away, in a country far away.

It's an amazing thing you know... you're able to focus all the disgust and hate on a country and it's people, turn them into evil cheats who do evil things.

Once you've successfully diverted the attention to another country you're free to do as you like in your own country.

How many Operación Puertos have there been in your own country?

I agree that Spain is getting more than its fair share of attention of late, although a better way to put it might be that some of "our" countries are getting a wee bit less than they also deserve. I think that's a fair point you raise.

We have had some pretty heated threads that were indeed calling all Spanish evil dirty cheats, and posters that were striking that chord were dealt with.

But Senor Contador, not every thread started about the particulars of a nation is automatically driven because of hatred or disgust against all in a nation though.

Just as you (quite rightly) expect people not to make wholesale accusations against the Spanish in general, the same goes for you, in that you cannot start off by hinting that folk that want to look at the Spanish results in particular do it because they are simple-minded or hate the Spanish.

Respectfulness goes 2 ways.

I do get your point that you feel that people are keener to point at the cheating of others than to point at their own cheats first. There is probably some truth in that.

But taking a look at Spanish results over the last decade and a bit is fair game in a place that discusses doping across the globe. You are free to start a thread looking closer at Canadian, US, Chinese, or US Postal athletes in particular.

What indeed isn't fair game is calling all the Spanish "evil cheats". If you see that, report it. In case you missed it, we are already trying hard to keep this thread from becoming a bash-the-Spanish-in-general one (or another bash-the-poster one) -publicly and privately.

And many posters have also pointed out that it is hardly a Spanish-only problem.

Less aggro directed at each other please. They tend to cheapen the good points people have to make.

 

[Tuarts]

Whoever wrote that didn't mean he just quit smoking. On January 1st a new law came into force restricting smoking in public places even further - basically banning it altogether. That's what he's talking about.

Ah thanks. The google translation did have me confused.

 

[D-Queued]

Here's another thought.

You know what happened between 1988 and 1992? The Cold War ended. East German, Soviet, Czechoslovak and Yugoslavian athletes were suddenly no longer being supported to the same level by state-sponsored doping programs. The NATO countries, the US in particular, may have stepped down their programs too. This would allow other countries to be competitive in events that had previously been dominated by US and Eastern Bloc countries. Spain may have stepped up their doping in order to give a good showing when they hosted the Games, but it's not just a stepping up from no program to a full program kind of situation. There are more factors than that.

The Cold War ended, but the rest of the world was already on a path to try and catch the East German (and Chinese swimming) programs. And, what happened to all the experienced practitioners - and the former programmed athletes? Any connection to the Freiburg clinic?

The US did not step down its programs. Balco is at least as heinous at OP, and arguably moreso as they were developing new, untraceable PEDs. OP only used what was known - though they had the good fortune to utilize the National Health systems to store blood.

The USOC was already on a path of hiding dopers when the wall came down as the stories from the Atlanta Games (1996) demonstrate. Moreover, Salt Lake City (1992) demonstrated how the IOC community was rife with corruption (fed by interested US parties). The LA Olympcs prefaced these other US-based Games and the US Cycling team learned big time how it was done from Eddy B. His tutelage yielded the first US medals in cycling since 1912.

Eddy B applied what he learned in former communist Poland.

Not everything Western athletes learned from the Communist bloc was bad or associated with doping, however. Periodization, for example, was first developed by the Soviets.

Have other countries than Spain had large programs to facilitate and hide doping? Err... yes.

In 2003, Dr. Wade Exum, the former director of drug control, turned over 30,000 pages of documents to Sports Illustrated showing that between 1980 and 2000 more than 100 Americans, including 19 who went on to win medals, had tested positive for drugs but were allowed to compete at the Olympics. Among the athletes was sprinter Carl Lewis, who was given the 100-metre gold medal at the 1988 Games after Ben Johnson was disqualified.

(Keeping this cycling focused, Lance was asked in the SCA case if he knew Wade Exum. His answer was consistent with the rest of his deposition:

Q. Do you know who Wade Exum is?
A. No.
Q. Never heard of that name either?
A. No. I mean, the name, you know, rings a bell, but I -- I don't know who -- I've never met that person that I recall.

The Athens Games were another Olympic parody. The Greek sprinters became instant doping poster children.

Spain may have a tennis player at the top, and a cyclist about to be stripped of his Tour win. But, they are only following others - from other nations.

Dave.

 

[khardung la]

Once more, I am tired of these threads. They are useless and biased.

Anyway: Spain developed enormously from the economic point of view in the last 30 years. The olympics 92 forced the country to do something in the sports field, taking advantage of a country with a big population and sport tradition, but that was traditionally closed to international competition and organized sport due to historical reasons.

From there on Spain has just followed a normal path: 44 million people, with a GDP per capita equal to Italy and very close to France....it is normal that they have similar success.

The rest is smoke and blabla... Spain has dopers, so do other countries. The difference is that Spain has ashaming politicians that support dopers for bas-tard reasons. Thw people of the world and the information are linked at all levels, it is ridiculous to think that the doping schemes used in Spain are a Spanish secret or that are exclusive from Spain.

 

[Dallas_]

I may be a newb here, but I have been observing the OBVIOUS cheating by Spanish athletes in tennis for many years.

1) Rafael Nadal.
- Vociforously opposed to out of competition testing.
- Has wide ranging performance changes in conjunction apparent build changes (2008, 2010 his "bulkiest" years are also his best performing years).
- Has a significant improvement in serve speed mid-career (speed changes dramatically week to week as well, peaking for the most prestigous tournaments). The vast majority of players don't have significant improvement to their strokes mid-career.
- Supports others who have failed OOC tests (Gasquet), and do not meet OOC reporting requirements (Wickmayer, Mallise).
- In spite of a VERY weak testing regime , he claims there is NO doping in tennis (ie. "no need to test us at all").
- Is rumoured to have been a client of Fuentes.
- Is the strongest, fastest, and highest endurance tennis player ever in the history of the game (in spite of having one of the most grueling styles of play, he has never been seen to even breathe hard - his endurance is much like Lance in the Pyrenees, the tougher it is, the faster he goes).
- Is now involved with a doctor (Sanchez) who has apparently cured Nadal's incurable knee condition (tendonitis) using a procedure (PRP) that has been no more effective than a placebo in tests outside of Spain (giving the appearance that it is no more than a ruse to give the athlete a medical exemption, then administer PEDs).
- Has been caught numerous times cheating in other ways (using medical timeouts for strategic purposes, taking too much time between points, on-court coaching).
- Clearly believes that he is above the game (much like LA). Threatened a chair umpire for doing his job at Wimbledon 2010 and vigorously lobbies against the rules.
- Complains about the damage to sports when athletes get caught doping, rather than complains about athletes cheating in the first place.
- Has unprecedented success with a defensive style game (normal for a "defensive specialist" is to be at the top of their game for 1 to 4 years, before they "burn out" - see Jim Courier, Michael Chang, Bjorn Borg). Nadal has been in the top three in the world for 5 1/2 years and counting.
- Since May 2010 has won 100% of the grand slams (most prestigous tournaments), but only 14% of the non-grand slams (as though he was "cycling up" for the biggest tournaments).
- Had a great year in 2008, then when a new testing regime was introduced in 2009 his performance dropped off dramatically. This is the year he complained the loudest about the new testing regime. His performance in 2010 was even higher than it was in 2008 (the new testing regime introduced in 2009 is no more stringent than the regime it replaced).

2) Fernando Verdasco -
- Mid-career, he took on a new "fitness coach" (Gil Reyes) in late 2008, and a few weeks later, showed up with a new "buff" body. His performance improved at the same time.
- Reyes did the exact same thing for Andre Agassi, who showed up late career in a new "buff" body. Agassi won most of his Grand slams AFTER his 29th birthday. This is unheard of in tennis where most players peak out before the age of 25.

3) David Ferrer -
- Next to Nadal, has the most endurance of any player in the game (has a "defensive" style which requires much more running than his opponent).
- Is rumoured to be on Fuentes list.

4) Juan Carlos Fererro -
- Is rumoured to be on Fuentes list.


In my opinion, there is NO ATHLETE IN ANY SPORT, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD THAT IS A MORE OBVIOUS DRUG-CHEAT (other than Lance Armstrong) than RAFAEL NADAL (excluding those who have already been caught) .

I have been following the goings on in Spanish sport since 2005 when Nadal broke on the scene. Spain HAS had much more suspicious activity, than most other nations. If the performance in 2010 by Spanish athletes is not a wake up call, then you are in EXTREME denial.

Every "accomplishment" by a Spanish athlete since 1992 IS tarnished in my opinion.

Good post Andynonomous

Will not get into Spanish bashing
Good to read a view on another sport. Tennis - very interesting. Football ie soccer ... anyone?
Actually, I have a question. I did read somewhere of a former player's allegations. Player X: her improvement in results after a sudden break from tournaments
Andynonomous, do you have more?

cheers

 

[Andynonomous]

Good post Andynonomous

Will not get into Spanish bashing
Good to read a view on another sport. Tennis - very interesting. Football ie soccer ... anyone?
Actually, I have a question. I did read somewhere of a former player's allegations. Player X: her improvement in results after a sudden break from tournaments
Andynonomous, do you have more?

cheers

I mostly follow men's tennis, but I have seen some suspicious things in the women's game.

Women's tennis is more about power than is the men's game, where power is important, but not as much as it is in the women's game. Of course, the more the sport relies on "physicality" (speed, strength, endurance), the more of an advantage PEDs would give the participant. For this reason, it is likely that a larger percentage of top women tennis players are doping than the men.

There are a number of women that fit your description (and are highly suspect).

- Serena Williams (USA), whose "skill" is hitting the ball harder than any other woman on tour. Serena has voiced her opposition to out of competition testing, and has had VERY many breaks for injuries throughout her career.

- Samantha Stosur (AUS) who was a mediocre player, until relatively late in her career. She had some time off for an illness, then came back "buffed up". Suddenly she is going MUCH farther in tournaments than she ever has before (French Open finalist 2010).

- Jennifer Capriati (USA) who was a promising young player that peaked out at a young age, then started a downward trend in her performance that culminated in her leaving the tour for a while. She then got in trouble with recreational drugs, and was arrested for theft. Jennifer came back on the tour later "buffed up", winning her only three grand slams. She has since attempted suicide.

- Justine Hennin (Bel) - Just had a long break (retired for a couple of years), and now is back. She is one of, if not the most skilled players on the women's tour. Still there have been rumours that her retirement was a "silent ban" (much like what McQuaid was going to give Contador, except for that darned German journalist). Her compatriot, Christophe Rochus mentioned that he had heard these same rumours (although he didn't state whether he believed them).


The American media has treated likely juicing Americans as "heroes". Oprah is a very big "enabler" of Serena.

 

[The Hitch]

snip

One point to mention about womens tennis is that they are all so young. In our thing on the other hand people say dope has prolongued cyclists careers whereas in womens tennis they are all young when they peak. Sharapovas best years are behind her while men her age are doing the u23 catergory at the worlds.

If you look at all the recent world no.1s they were in their early 20's when they got it. Exepting Serena you have the last 5 no.1s Sharapova - 21 yo Ivanovic -20yo Jankovic-23 yo Safina - 22 yo and Wozniaki - 20 yo.

You have Capriati and Hingis and whoever else reaching grand slam finals when they were 14 yo.

I know im stepping on dangerous lines but i think womens tenis is one of the most mentaly demanding sports. Mens tenis too but if you look at the number of matches which go 6-0 0-6 or games girls lose in a row then bounce back and how often they just crack during games, totaly choke, id say its probably more than the mens game and hence physical advantages might not be as important.

Also your list of "potentialy doped up" girls only includes more powerful players. What about the smaller ones using nandrowhatever, and epo to train longer etc.

At the end of the day though its a sport with a lot of money so im guessing like other sports with so much at stake, there is probably a doping culture there.

 

[Andynonomous]

Although women's tennis players do tend to peak out at an earlier age than do the men, the women's champions have been trending up in age the last 10 years or so.

Because defense is less important in women's tennis, and power is more important in women's tennis, it is likely the strength building PEDs (growth hormones, and steroids) are more popular in Women's tennis than the endurance Peds (autologous blood doping, EPO) are. Although I am sure that both types of PEDs are being used in both the men's and women's game.



By the way, since this is a cycling forum, let's not get too far off topic please.

 

[The Hitch]

A

By the way, since this is a cycling forum, let's not get too far off topic please.

This is the clinic section so discussion very often drifts off to other sports or media because ultimately there are strong links between doping in other sports, doping advantages in other sports, corruption in other sports and doping doctors in other sports with their equivalents in cycling.

And it was you who started speculating about female tennis players and doping anyway.

 

[D-Queued]

Although women's tennis players do tend to peak out at an earlier age than do the men, the women's champions have been trending up in age the last 10 years or so.

Because defense is less important in women's tennis, and power is more important in women's tennis, it is likely the strength building PEDs (growth hormones, and steroids) are more popular in Women's tennis than the endurance Peds (autologous blood doping, EPO) are. Although I am sure that both types of PEDs are being used in both the men's and women's game.



By the way, since this is a cycling forum, let's not get too far off topic please.

Huh #1?

Billie Jean King (Almost 32 at her last singles Grand Slam victory, almost 37 at her last doubles Grand Slam victory), Chris Evert (Age 31 at her last Grand Slam victory), Martina Navratilova (Age 33 at her last Grand Slam victory), Stefi Graf (Age 30 at her last Grand Slam victory)

Huh #2?

You served up this thread and its tennis theme.

I tried to lob it back with the segue to Wade Exum and Lance.

Time for an overhead smash.

Dave.

 

[Andynonomous]

It is appropriate to discuss other sports in this thread, however, I think the vast majority of cycling fans don't give a patooty about detailed conversations about women's tennis. I just thought the conversation was going too far for the audience.

If you disagree, ignore me (although I don't have anything more to say on the matter).

 

[runninboy]

I agree that Spain is getting more than its fair share of attention of late, although a better way to put it might be that some of "our" countries are getting a wee bit less than they also deserve. I think that's a fair point you raise.

While I have no "proof" there are quite a few interesting coincidences that point to Spain as being a place where certain practices are condoned.

I dont know the year, but as an American cyclist who spent alot of time in Italy i was shocked to learn that Spain was a much better place to train than Lake Como for Americans. These Americans were all part of a team where at least 4 members have acknowledged systemic doping throughout their team. One of these riders started a team and many of those riders also moved to Spain. I couldnt believe it at the time, as i knew from personal experience Italy loved cycling, it was a great place to train, it was really mecca for cyclists and now all of these Pro riders were basically bashing Italy.
Then i learn from a team mechanic that the Italians had started cracking down on drug use and even made altitude tents illegal
Interesting coincidence?

Also if you notice and it has been mentioned by many a race commentator, the Spanish riders on opposing teams usually will not chase one another when their a riders from other nations present. It has been mentioned in the context of National comarderie but when the tactics are contrary to their teams general interest it starts to become something more than friendship. It becomes an "us versus them" and then one must ask why?
Could it have something to do with doping? If I was going to the same doctor that many others were using for the same less than legal purpose I would think twice about antagonizing them and i would imagine they would offer me the same courtesy.

 

[spetsa]

This thread has been brought to our attention. I have very few problems with people speculating about how much of the the sports results of a particular country are tainted by drug use. Well argued it could make a fascinating thread. Multiple threads even, as drugs in sport aren't unique to Spain. Far far from it.

But to be very clear: what won't be tolerated is nation-bashing for the sake of nation bashing.


Give me a break! Go cry in a corner someplace. Is some Spanish company the next Trek of the almighty Cycling News advertising dollar, or do you have other motives? I am certian that you will now provide empirical data instead of opinion yourself in all of your posts, since you are threatening all of us others to do the same. Will the reprecussions be the same if I state that I think one country is a better place to live than another? Will the Spaniards be offended if I prefer Moscow over Barcelona? Moral relativism is much more dangerous and offensive than opinion and you feel you are empowered to demand it? That is insane! The internet is full of conjecture and you feel you can moderate it here? Seriously, who do you think you are?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Give me a break! Go cry in a corner someplace. Is some Spanish company the next Trek of the almighty Cycling News advertising dollar, or do you have other motives? I am certian that you will now provide empirical data instead of opinion yourself in all of your posts, since you are threatening all of us others to do the same. Will the reprecussions be the same if I state that I think one country is a better place to live than another? Will the Spaniards be offended if I prefer Moscow over Barcelona? Moral relativism is much more dangerous and offensive than opinion and you feel you are empowered to demand it? That is insane! The internet is full of conjecture and you feel you can moderate it here? Seriously, who do you think you are?

"They" are a moderator.
"We" are guests.

I don't see any problem with a reminder asking people to avoid bashing a nation or being abusive which is a much better alternative to banning people, closing or locking threads.

 

[Escarabajo]

Spain is just catching on to the rest of the developed and other power house organized doping countries. IMHO.

Where does that leave a Country like Colombia? with very few renegades who dare to dope like Botero.

Now I understand why the same countries always winning all the medals. Always heard the same stupid comments by the commentators about countries needing specific "programs" and "schools" (whatever that means) for getting medals. LOL.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

This thread has been brought to our attention. I have very few problems with people speculating about how much of the the sports results of a particular country are tainted by drug use. Well argued it could make a fascinating thread. Multiple threads even, as drugs in sport aren't unique to Spain. Far far from it.

But to be very clear: what won't be tolerated is nation-bashing for the sake of nation bashing.


Give me a break! Go cry in a corner someplace. Is some Spanish company the next Trek of the almighty Cycling News advertising dollar, or do you have other motives? I am certian that you will now provide empirical data instead of opinion yourself in all of your posts, since you are threatening all of us others to do the same. Will the reprecussions be the same if I state that I think one country is a better place to live than another? Will the Spaniards be offended if I prefer Moscow over Barcelona? Moral relativism is much more dangerous and offensive than opinion and you feel you are empowered to demand it? That is insane! The internet is full of conjecture and you feel you can moderate it here? Seriously, who do you think you are?

Relax Dude the Moderator is Just doing his Job.

 

[sniper]

Spain is just catching on to the rest of the developed and other power house organized doping countries. IMHO.

Where does that leave a Country like Colombia? with very few renegades who dare to dope like Botero.

Now I understand why the same countries always winning all the medals. Always heard the same stupid comments by the commentators about countries needing specific "programs" and "schools" (whatever that means) for getting medals. LOL.

Though indeed Spain is merely catching up with other countries in terms of quantities of doped athletes and teams, they are still trailing behind by some distance when it comes to dealing with/sanctioning doped athletes.
Admittedly, the Galgo-case is a good sign, but Spanish sporting bodies continue to hide in ignorance, with people like Odriorzola refusing to take any responsibility, and with obvious cheaters like AC still receiving massive public and institutional support.

Pedro Lopes gets a 15 year sanction for repetitively breaking the anti-doping rules.
If the RFEC is anywhere near as rigorous in punishing cheats as the Portuguese federation, then AC should be getting round about the same sanction, for his repetetive breaking of the rules (Fuentes pre-2006 + CLEN positive 2010).

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

The tone and title of this thread is bordering on predjudice. It is duly unjust to single out Spain when doping in sports as You all Know is a world wide epidemic. "Spain since 1992" is rather like trolling disguised as predjudice.