• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Sprints at Milan Sanremo

Hello.

I'm posting this thread because I've read on the other Milan Sanremo thread that this classic was compared to Paris-Tours. For me that's an insult.

I first watch Milan Sanremo in 1992. Kelly won. What about the sprinters back then? Nowhere to be found. Until Zabel's first win in 1997, I could never EVER EVER imagine that a sprinter could win this one. And even thereafter. In 1998, Zabel's win was only due to the help of opponent Gabriele Colombo (bribed?) while Elli was heading to victory. And 1999, Tchmil's trick. Only in the noughties could the sprinters' teams master the race.

I don't know to explain it. But I think I have an idea.;)
Some would say it's a flat race and Poggio, Cipressa and the Capi are not that steep.

Yeah but they appear after 280/290 km race. That's a lot different then climbing them at training. If they were that easy to climb, how can you account for the fact that breakaways have been the norm for 40 years after the introduction of the Poggio?

I've made up a list of all post-war Sanremo mass sprints (I consider a peloton as a group consisting of more then 15 riders together):

1950: 53 riders (winner Bartali)
1954: 60 riders (winner Van Steenbergen)
1958: 69 riders (winner Van Looy)
1959: 90 riders (winner Poblet)
Poggio added after this edition
1980: 30 riders (winner Gavazzi P)
Cipressa added in 1982
Between 1989 and 1992 finish on the Corso Cavaloti
1997: 40 riders (winner Zabel)
1998: 18 riders (winner Zabel)
2000: 37 riders (winner Zabel)
Turchino removed after this edition
2001: 19 riders (winner Zabel)
2002: 44 riders (winner Cipollini)
Turchino re-added after this edition
2004: 62 riders (winner Freire)
2005: 39 riders (winner Petacchi)
2007: 28 riders (winner Freire) **
Manië added after this edition + finish in Lungomare
2009: 34 riders (winner Cavendish) ***
[Edit]2010: 25 riders (winner Freire)

** Paolini 12th finished at 1 second. I still consider the bunch was packed.
*** 2 seconds between the first 2 and the rest because of a rare sprint by Haussler

In 1979 De Vlaeminck won in a bunch of 15 riders. In 1954 13 riders accompanied Loretto Petrucci in his 2nd victory. These can possibly be added but these were still much smaller groups.

In 61 years only 14 editions of Milan Sanremo finished in a sprint.

Between 1960 (introduction of the Poggio) and 1996, there's been only one. After the introduction of the Cipressa and before Zabel's first win, there had been none !!
 
Aug 6, 2009
1,901
1
0
Visit site
Echoes said:
Between 1960 (introduction of the Poggio) and 1996, there's been only one. After the introduction of the Cipressa and before Zabel's first win, there had been none !!
And between Zabels first win and today there has been 9. Now which period do you think is most likely to give an indication for 2010?
 
Aug 11, 2009
729
0
0
Visit site
Why is the casual comparison to Paris-Tours an "insult"? Both are races that can go to sprinters or opportunistic late breaks. Modern era P-T winners include Francesco Moser, Joop Zoetemelk, Rolf Sorensen, Sean Kelly, Johan Museeuw, Andrea Tafi, Phil Anderson, Erik Dekker, and Philippe Gilbert. Pretty solid classics hardmen, no?
 
Jun 19, 2009
5,220
0
0
Visit site
ergmonkey said:
Why is the casual comparison to Paris-Tours an "insult"? Both are races that can go to sprinters or opportunistic late breaks. Modern era P-T winners include Francesco Moser, Joop Zoetemelk, Rolf Sorensen, Sean Kelly, Johan Museeuw, Andrea Tafi, Phil Anderson, Erik Dekker, and Philippe Gilbert. Pretty solid classics hardmen, no?

And most of them could sprint pretty well. Most of them were strong and smart enough to get a separation to smaller groups to maximize their winning potential. That's thinking like a pro instead of presuming you can set up a sprinter's lead out train after those hills.
 
The likes of Zoetemelk and Anderson never won "Paris-Tours", they won "Tours-Versailles" or something like it. They went on the opposite side, which made it a totally different race.


Paris-Tours has been a sprinters' race ever since Merckx's time and even before. Now some classic hardmen can win it because of its place in the calendar. The sprinters' teams' motivation is not the same. Neither are their form levels. That can lead to breakaways. You can notice the same thing for Lombardy (compared to Liège for example).

Put Paris-Tours in spring and the sprint as unavoidable.
 
Aug 11, 2009
729
0
0
Visit site
Echoes said:
Now some classic hardmen can win it because of its place in the calendar. The sprinters' teams' motivation is not the same. Neither are their form levels. That can lead to breakaways. You can notice the same thing for Lombardy (compared to Liège for example).

So, now are you suggesting that speaking of Lombardy and Liege winners in the same breath should be an "insult," too? I guess Lombardy isn't really a "monument" after all...

And Petacchi would have won Lombardy in the spring instead of Bartoli, Bettini, and Cunego?
 
Echoes said:
I didn't intend to make predictions for next week.

I would just like to have explanations on this radical change in the development of the race.

The easy answer is that the way teams approach the start of the season has changed in the last 15-20 years. The season starts much earlier now with big races in january and february which wasn't the case before. This means that more riders will be in alot better shape come San Remo than was the case in the past. Back then there were a handful people why focused no getting in form for San Remo while others were still slow after a long winter. Now everyone is better prepared for the race. This has made the Poggio and Cipressa less challenging than it was when break aways dominated.
 
ingsve said:
The easy answer is that the way teams approach the start of the season has changed in the last 15-20 years. The season starts much earlier now with big races in january and february which wasn't the case before. This means that more riders will be in alot better shape come San Remo than was the case in the past. Back then there were a handful people why focused no getting in form for San Remo while others were still slow after a long winter. Now everyone is better prepared for the race. This has made the Poggio and Cipressa less challenging than it was when break aways dominated.

Partly true and also partly true is that the majority of sprinters these days can fly over power climbs like Cipressa and Poggio in position at the front and still recover enough in time to sprint. Call this by superior training, superior athleticism in modern sprinters, or other methods that are discussed in The Clinic.
 
Mar 19, 2009
122
0
0
Visit site
BikeCentric said:
Partly true and also partly true is that the majority of sprinters these days can fly over power climbs like Cipressa and Poggio in position at the front and still recover enough in time to sprint. Call this by superior training, superior athleticism in modern sprinters, or other methods that are discussed in The Clinic.

Also remember the bikes are faster which means attackers are using more energy against aero drag than gravity/friction which increases the bunch's advantage.
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
0
0
Visit site
philcrisp said:
Also remember the bikes are faster which means attackers are using more energy against aero drag than gravity/friction which increases the bunch's advantage.

Good point.

1997 was just about the time when the majority of pro bikes were shifting away from steel...

Was Zabel's win the first on non-steel?

Kelly did not win on a wobbly Vitus did he?
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
0
0
Visit site
Polish said:
Good point.

1997 was just about the time when the majority of pro bikes were shifting away from steel...

Was Zabel's win the first on non-steel?
?

Nevermind....Colombo won on a Ti Bianchi Mega-Tube in 96
 
The overgeneralization of the new bikes could be an interesting point. ;)

The new early races as well but Milan Sanremo has never really been the very first race of the season. The Laigueglia has existed since the seventies. Mallorca as well. Bessèges, same.


Now it would be interesting to put here every argument you have and not in the Clinic section.:D;)


So, now are you suggesting that speaking of Lombardy and Liege winners in the same breath should be an "insult," too? I guess Lombardy isn't really a "monument" after all...

And Petacchi would have won Lombardy in the spring instead of Bartoli, Bettini, and Cunego?

Liège: Attacks in the last 10kms
Flèche wallonne: sprint EVERY year
Gold Race: same as Liège. Even a pure mass sprint in 2005

Lombardy: attacks on the Civiglio and sometimes even on the Ghisallo. Only the last edition was dull

Hope this helps.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
Polish said:
Good point.

1997 was just about the time when the majority of pro bikes were shifting away from steel...

Was Zabel's win the first on non-steel?

Kelly did not win on a wobbly Vitus did he?

Hey...I tool around on one of those Vitus bikes!! I like it a lot...old school..and I was a big fan of Kelly.
 
List edited.

This one was really frustrating.

Has someone ever seen a Cipressa without a single attack?

How could these guys not take adantage of the long chase following Fischer's fall?


What for did Garzelli ride so hard on the Poggio?

Mug era. :rolleyes:
 
May 15, 2009
550
1
0
Visit site
Garzelli was riding for Paolini, I think. Garzelli's plan was to drop some sprinters from that group, since Paolini is not on par with top sprinters in terms of finishing speed.
 
Nah, they don't have the power to attack.
Today, the race was made, REALLY hard. And what happens? The attackers...had no power left to attack!

And, another thing, sprinters have become far more complete, actually every rider has, the differences in mountain stages are already far smaller than they used to be. And so the differences on climbs like the Poggio become marginal, resulting in group sprints.

We see the same in Flanders, where 30 man sprinted for 2nd/3rd place.
 
Mar 19, 2009
122
0
0
Visit site
Dekker_Tifosi said:
We see the same in Flanders, where 30 man sprinted for 2nd/3rd place.

IIRC that was how MSR usually played out in the 80s with the peleton in the same photo as the winner. It's not a big step from there to the finishes we've seen in recent years.

Also pre-world cup the field at MSR was huge, 250+, an obstacle in itself. One of the favourites usually ended up in an ambulance.
 
61 editions now since Bartali outsprinted a bunch of 50 riders. Still 14 sprints.


I'd like to apologize though. Always thought that the Cipressa was added after Gavazzi's win but it was after De Wolf's win, which means that the addition of that particular climb was not meant to thwart the sprinters' plans.
 

TRENDING THREADS