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SRAM's ChainGate smoke screen: there was no bump

These are screen captures made with VLC media player. Frame rate is 30/second.



Picture #1, Frame 0: No problems. Lower chainline is straight. Note the position of the rear derailleur cage. The "mystery" bump, about one or one and a half feet ahead of his front wheel, is not visible.

Picture #2, Frame 6: The derailleur cage has moved forward because Andy has commanded a shift and the cage has moved as the chain crawls over the currently selected cog. No bump or pothole visible.

Picture #3, Frame 12: The spot on the road where the rear wheel ultimately will hop is almost directly under the present position of his front wheel, yet the front wheel does not react to any bump, nor does it in any subsequent frames. The shifter cage has moved rearward and the rear shifter cable loop is slightly more pinched. The chain has finished crawling off the previously-selected cog and has tried to drop onto the next smaller cog. At this instant the chain has altogether dropped off the cogset and is wedged between the freewheel and chainstay. Note that the lower chainline is still straight.

Picture #4, Frame 14: The angle of the left crank arm (visible against the yellow downtube) is virtually identical to two frames ago but Andy's left foot has rotated around the pedal axle. This is in response to the chain having stuck and the upper chainline having gone taut. There in no indication yet that the rear wheel is unweighting.

Picture #5, Frame 16: The left crank arm remains in the exact same position as four frames ago. Now Andy's left foot is pointing almost straight at the ground as his pedalling force bends it around the unyielding pedal axle. Compared to Picture #3, the shifter cable loop is more pinched, showing the cage is even further back, as would be expected if the chain has dropped off the cogset. By comparing the distance Andy's tush is from the saddle, you can tell he's begun to be pitched forward. There still is no disturbance of the rear wheel.

Picture #6, Frame 22: The crank arm still shows no movement. Andy has been pitched further forward. In the video, this is the frame that shows the rear wheel has begun moving upward but, because it's in the shadow, from a still picture you can't yet tell if it's off the ground. His left pedal is in a high power position and Andy is torquing the rear wheel off the pavement. The faintly visible lower chainline is still straight. This occurs 8-10 frames after pictures 3&4, when the chain became wedged in the frame.

Picture #7, Frame 24: Two frames later, the rear wheel is far enough off the road to see daylight underneath it. The shifter loop is more open and the lower chainline is sagging slightly. Andy's torsion on the chainrings is feeding chain to the frozen cogset that it cannot accept, causing a bit of slack in the lower chainline.

Picture #8, Frame 28: The rear wheel at its maximum height. The left crank arm has moved slightly. Because the road is no longer impeding wheel movement, Andy has managed to pull a couple of links of chain free. His jerking on the rear sprockets is causing radical changes in chain tension and the lower chainline is slapping in response. The slapping occurs fast enough that the camera cannot record the movement and the chain seems to disappear. The spot on the road where the hop began is now about two feet behind the rear wheel. No bump or pothole is evident.

Picture #9, Frame 36: The rear wheel lands. The shifter cable loop is pinched, the cage is far to the rear and the lower chainline is slack. The chain has derailed at the front and is resting against Andy's bottom bracket. No bump or pothole is evident.

Picture #10, Frame 37: One frame later, Andy is recovering from the weight shift and is moving his tush closer to the saddle. Still no bump or pothole.

If it was a bump, why did did Andy start being tossed forward for 8-10 frames before the rear wheel showed any reaction to it? If it was a bump, what caused his pedal to stop moving so abruptly? If it was a bump, why didn't the front wheel show any evidence of hitting it? If it was a bump, why doesn't it appear in the video before or after Andy ran over it?

There was no bump. Andy was in full flight, out of the saddle with a cadence of about 80, pushing a 39x13 or 39x14 gear. He attempted an ill-advised up-shift while already cross-chaining and without soft-pedaling, which bent the chain excessively and at the rear cluster, causing it to bind and derail. The dropped chain wedged between the freewheel and the chain stay. It lodged there just as Andy's left pedal was at the 10 o'clock position, the point at which a rider can apply the maximum force. He applied enough torque to lift the rear wheel off the pavement and to force through a couple more links of chain. Because the rear wheel was airborne and unrestrained, this jerky motion of the chain caused slapping of the lower chainline. The chain slap traveled forward in a wave from the jockey wheel and tossed the chain off of the small chainring.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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dsut4392 said:
Bravo. Makes much more sense than Mr Zinn's ridiculous hypothesis on Velonews, and is backed by video evidence to boot.
??Eh?. I kinda likes Zinn's hypothesis - and the two aren't that different. Zinn had the derailleur jamming due to a missed shift, here we have the chain dropping of the freewheel for the same reason.

One or the other - the causative factor is the shifting, yes?
 
Jul 17, 2009
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I said this on another thread but Phil on VS tried to say that the bump and the shift happened together and threw the chain



I have heard that Fabian runs a DA chain and and a Force front d/r in the Red group because the Force is steel and stiffer than the REd. Chain shifts better on the SRAm cassette is the reported theory as well. This is hearsay from me but interesting regardless and I trust the source
 
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StyrbjornSterki said:
These are screen captures made with VLC media player. Frame rate is 30/second.

cchaingate.jpg


Picture #1, Frame 0: No problems. Lower chainline is straight. Note the position of the rear derailleur cage. The "mystery" bump, about one or one and a half feet ahead of his front wheel, is not visible.

Picture #2, Frame 6: The derailleur cage has moved forward because Andy has commanded a shift and the cage has moved as the chain crawls over the currently selected cog. No bump or pothole visible.

Picture #3, Frame 12: The spot on the road where the rear wheel ultimately will hop is almost directly under the present position of his front wheel, yet the front wheel does not react to any bump, nor does it in any subsequent frames. The shifter cage has moved rearward and the rear shifter cable loop is slightly more pinched. The chain has finished crawling off the previously-selected cog and has tried to drop onto the next smaller cog. At this instant the chain has altogether dropped off the cogset and is wedged between the freewheel and chainstay. Note that the lower chainline is still straight.

Picture #4, Frame 14: The angle of the left crank arm (visible against the yellow downtube) is virtually identical to two frames ago but Andy's left foot has rotated around the pedal axle. This is in response to the chain having stuck and the upper chainline having gone taut. There in no indication yet that the rear wheel is unweighting.

Picture #5, Frame 16: The left crank arm remains in the exact same position as four frames ago. Now Andy's left foot is pointing almost straight at the ground. Compared to Picture #3, the shifter cable loop is more pinched, showing the cage is even further back, as would be expected if the chain has dropped off the cogset. By comparing the distance Andy's tush is from the saddle, you can tell he's begun to be pitched forward. There still is no disturbance of the rear wheel.

Picture #6, Frame 22: The crank arm still shows no movement. Andy has been pitched further forward. In the video, this is the frame that shows the rear wheel has begun moving upward but, because it's in the shadow, from a still picture you can't yet tell if it's off the ground. His left pedal is in a high power position and Andy is torquing the rear wheel off the pavement. The faintly visible lower chainline is still straight. This occurs 8-10 frames after pictures 3&4, when the chain became wedged in the frame.

Picture #7, Frame 24: Two frames later, the rear wheel is far enough off the road to see daylight underneath it. The shifter loop is more open and the lower chainline is sagging slightly. Andy's torsion on the chainrings is feeding chain to the frozen cogset that it cannot accept, causing a bit of slack.

Picture #8, Frame 28: The rear wheel at its maximum height. The left crank arm has moved slightly. Because the road is no longer impeding wheel movement, Andy has managed to pull a couple of links of chain free. His jerking on the rear sprockets is causing radical changes in chain tension and the lower chainline is slapping in response. The slapping occurs fast enough that the camera cannot record the movement and the chain seems to disappear. The spot on the road where the hop began is now about two feet behind the rear wheel. No bump or pothole is evident.

Picture #9, Frame 36: The rear wheel lands. The shifter cable loop is pinched, the cage is far to the rear and the lower chainline is slack. The chain has derailed at the front and is resting against Andy's bottom bracket. No bump or pothole is evident.

Picture #10, Frame 37: One frame later, Andy is recovering from the weight shift and is moving his tush closer to the saddle. Still no bump or pothole.

If it was a bump, why did did Andy start being tossed forward for 8-10 frames before the rear wheel showed any reaction to it? If it was a bump, what caused his pedal to stop moving so abruptly? If it was a bump, why didn't the front wheel show any evidence of hitting it? If it was a bump, why doesn't it appear in the video before or after Andy ran over it?

There was no bump. Andy was in full flight, out of the saddle with a cadence of about 80, pushing a 39x13 or 39x14 gear. He attempted an ill-advised up-shift while already cross-chaining and without soft-pedaling, which bent the chain excessively and at the rear cluster, causing it to bind and derail. The dropped chain wedged between the freewheel and the chain stay. It lodged there just as Andy's left pedal was at the 10 o'clock position, the point at which a rider can apply the maximum force. He applied enough torque to lift the rear wheel off the pavement and to force trough a couple more links of chain. Because the rear wheel was airborne and undampened, this jerky motion of the chain caused slapping of the lower chainline. The chain slap traveled forward from the jockey wheel and tossed the chain off of the small chainring.

Some have said he runs a 38 and not a 39 in the mountains. I do not know for fact but it could help your theory
 
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StyrbjornSterki said:
He applied enough torque to lift the rear wheel off the pavement and to force trough a couple more links of chain.
pedal torque will rotate the bike anticlockwise, not clockwise as occurred here. the only feasible explanation for clockwise rotation (lifted rear wheel) is that the chain slipped (not jammed) and andy lurched forwards on the bars, applying a clockwise torque on the bike and lifting the rear wheel.
 
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I was riding today, and shifted as I was sprinting up a little hill, when my chain got bunged up and dropped off the chainrings. It took me at least 30 seconds to get it back on. At first, I wondered what just happened, and then realized it had just schlecked on me...
 
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Boeing said:
I have heard that Fabian runs a DA chain and and a Force front d/r in the Red group because the Force is steel and stiffer than the REd. Chain shifts better on the SRAm cassette is the reported theory as well. This is hearsay from me but interesting regardless and I trust the source

A lot of the local mechanics where I am recommend that set-up. I think the DA chain is also quieter.
 
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Who is reporting it as a bump? I thought Andy said they attempted it in the room that night and made it happen again but didn't know why. I haven't heard them say anything about a bump, just mechanical.
 
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I wonder if Shimano has approached him yet with an amazing sponsorship deal? this is the perfect opportunity for both Shimano and SRAM to either have him "switch to a better product" or remain loyal "because he knows it's the best and it wasn't the fault of the equipment."

He should have swerved into AC and held him up with him when this happened :(
 
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outrage9 said:
Could you do the same with the front shot of Andy because I've watched it over and over and I see no detectable movement of his hands making a shift and it's a pretty good shot of him from the front when it happens.

He shifts.
Trust us.
 
delbified said:
pedal torque will rotate the bike anticlockwise, not clockwise as occurred here. the only feasible explanation for clockwise rotation (lifted rear wheel) is that the chain slipped (not jammed) and andy lurched forwards on the bars, applying a clockwise torque on the bike and lifting the rear wheel.
Are you looking at the bike from the left or from the right?
The view in the photos in the OP is from the left side, and the rotation is anticlockwise.

I assume you're looking at it from the right side, because from that perspective the rotation is clockwise. But if the chain jams in the rearwheel isn't pedal torque pulling it up and towards the front, thus clockwise (from the right side)?
 
delbified said:
pedal torque will rotate the bike anticlockwise, not clockwise as occurred here. the only feasible explanation for clockwise rotation (lifted rear wheel) is that the chain slipped (not jammed) and andy lurched forwards on the bars, applying a clockwise torque on the bike and lifting the rear wheel.
Assuming you're viewing the bike from the right side to refer to the resulting rotation as being clockwise (about the front axle)... I think that the right leg pulling up on a pedal that is essentially attached to a chain ring frozen to a chain attached to the rear axle... combined with his weight shifting forward onto the bars, causes the leg to lift the rear of the bike.

That is, if he hadn't been clipped in, there would be no rotation, and no lifting of the rear wheel.

If you're coasting on a bike with the chain jammed in the rear gears and you lift with your clipped in foot while resting your weight on the bars, the rear wheel will lift.
 
May 22, 2010
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yeah, that's right. but what i was saying was that it was his weight moving forward onto the bars that would have caused the clockwise (viewed from the right) rotation, moreso than the pedal torque. the latter provides for too small a moment (rotational force) to lift the rear wheel, but lurching forward on the bars will (much bigger leverage about the centre of gravity).

to me, it seems more likely his lurching forwards would have been caused by a slipping, rather than jammed chain - but that's speculation. it could also have slipped, then jammed - it doesn't have to be one or the other.
 
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Specialized Is The Issue

Neither the Schlecks nor Cancellara are using SRAM cranks or rings. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...or-cancellara-and-the-schleck-brothers/129174

Look at the footage again. Andy wasn't even attempting a shift when the problem occurred. You can tell by the position of his hands compared to where they would need to be to make a shift using SRAM shifters. The kind of slippage that Schleck suffered is a chainring or frame flex issue, not a rear derailleur or cassette issue. As such, the problem here was Specialized, not SRAM.

The top areas for Specialized to check are probably chainring flex and tooth shape. Frame flex can cause the kind of issue Andy suffered too.

My take is that SRAM is covering for Specialized. Specialized buys a ton of SRAM parts, and SRAM doesn't want to point the finger at its good customer Specialized.
 

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